| Author | Message | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-1999 |
I just recently read this booklet. If you haven't read it, or can't remember it, you can read it online. It is the first material I have ever seen that is targeted toward educating "non-adventist" (don't you just love that term!) about what Adventist won't tell you they believe. There are 7 questions in the back which should be asked Adventist to ascertain their true beliefs. Can you imagine the look on an Adventists face if a Methodist asked them these questions? MOst people have never even heard of Ellen White, and even fewer the 1844 investigative judgment!! Do you think since they would be using "their terminology" an Adventist would truly answer the questions because they considered the questioner already informed on the subject? I have already learned that the Gospel message has no impact on a SDA....they already know there is "more to salvation" than that. They have additional truth!!! However, they have a lot of "additional truths" they don't want to adhere to.... I had a rather interesting conversation with an Adventist yesterday. She was criticizing her former Adventist church (located in the North LA, firm historical Adventist foundation, also the church of my youth) and their continued adherence to the more rigid rules of Adventist. As she has traveled excessively, with the G.C., she has experienced the more liberal doctrines of SDA and has subsequently become highly critical of those who still maintain the "higher standard". As her criticism of historical Adventist escalated, I decided I would play the "Devil's Advocate" using the content of the first question in "the truth about SDA truth". Instead of agreeing with her, I said, "Sue, you have to admire them for their stand. They are only adhering to what they were taught! They are obeying the truths as they were laid down at the foundation of the Adventist church." Her reply was prompt. "The rules they are adhering to are man made rules." "Sue, the rules they are upholding came from Ellen White, who they professed to believe when they joined the Adventist church. The same profession you made. There are 27 statements of belief that you agreed to #17 states that you believe Ellen White is a continuing and authoritative source of truth." She stated the Adventist Church no longer takes this stand (#17 is not a current "doctrine). To which I replied, "Sue, it's in their current baptismal vows and professions of faith when you join the church and it is in the book "What Adventist Believe 27 fundamental beliefs of SDA" By this time, I had located the statement, so I read it to her, "As the Lord's messenger, her (EGW) writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth...." She still tried to tell me that wasn't the position of the church. I just kept restating the phrase, "You can't take part of what she wrote or just apply it when you want to and toss out the rest, this statement says,'she is a continuing source of truth; it says she is an authoritive source of truth.'" She still kept trying to tell me otherwise. I finally told her, "Sue, your argument is not with me; your argument is with the Adventist doctrine. The doctrine says Ellen White is a source of truth and it emphasizes the source further by saying it's continuing and authoritive". She finally agreed that her hometown church was doing what Adventist taught. Immediately after this, she had leave!! It's clear she doesn't want to believe in many of the things EGW teaches and she wants to believe that the SDA church stands without them. My hope is our conversation planted a seed and hopefully, she will search for the truth; if she does she will find it!!! This is the only way to reach them....make them doubt some aspect of Adventist doctrine. They have to want to investigate it deeply enough, and in the Bible alone, before they can be reached. Did any of you leave the Adventist church any differently? That's what happened to me. I investigated an Adventist doctrine, searching for the truth, in the Bible, (no EGW allowed) and I found out to my horror it was false!!! Ellen White has to go first. You have to toss her out before you begin to search. If you consult her you're always going to come out with the Adventist viewpoint. Please pray for "Sue"! | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 602 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lori, you are right. As long as my SDA friends are willing to automatically say "Sister White says..." there is not discussing the gospel with them. They are going to view the gospel as a jumping off point, almost inconsequential, and will go on to talk about their "additional knowledge" as though it is fact. Yes, as long as EGW holds any type of authoritative position with a person they will remain blind to the real truth of the complete salvation in Jesus Christ alone. Having been there, we can hear and recognize when the falling over point comes, and when individuals are willing to look at scripture alone. I'll pray for Sue. Please pray for my dear friend Sandy, who is very willing to say "Sister White says..." a lot. Belva | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 921 Registered: 10-2004  |
Lori, that is incredible that she was trying to claim that it is not the SDA church's position! Isn't she aware of the latest GC Session's "reaffirmation of EGW" statement? Also, if they no longer hold one of their "fundamental beliefs" they would toss it out at the GC Session. Just by leaving #17 (now #18) the same every GC Session, they are reaffirming that belief every 5 years. Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 637 Registered: 3-2005 |
So many SDAs are just in denial as this may be just more evidence that the North American SDA church is in decline. This is actually good news. The SDA church simply would not be the SDA church without EGW and the doctrine of the I.J., and topchurch administrators know this. The only reason Adventism has been so successful is that if you can convince someone that they belong to God's unique special organization with "inside information" from God that no one else has, then you can't possibly hold the membership numbers. One proof of this, is look at how big Seventh-day Baptist and Chuch of God 7th day churches are. The gospel and the Sabbath are by definition opposed to each other. That is why the WWCOG is really in decline and has split up after giving up their special doctrines. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2393 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lori, you are SO right. Using Adventists own arguments on them exposes that many of them do not personally believe them, but still retain their loyalty because they can't abandon them. Two days ago I received an email from a woman who sent me a quote by Neal Wilson from the Pacific Union College Campus Chronicle, May 27, 1982. Here is the quote: "...when we come to the point as to whether one has to believe in Ellen White, to some degree or another, or accept her visions as real or simply an imagination or parroting what somebody else said--that one has to believe that these things were real visions in order to be a Seventh-day Adventist or to experience salvation--this church has never taken that position. I hope it never does..." The man was the GC president when he made that statement. That quote was published two years after the new 27 Fundamental statements were revised to make #17 about Ellen White more specific regarding her inspiration. His toying with words is typical but still astonishing. Of course, people do not have to specifically agree to believe in EGW as a prophet in order to join the church. That very fact is why so many new converts do not understand what they've gotten themselves into until years into their SDA membership. No one TELLS people that all Adventist theology derives from EGWs authority and interpretations. In fact, younger SDAs are frequently, today, uninformed about her and are under or un-exposed to her writings. It's by design, I believe, that N. American Adventists are being tuaght less EGW while simultaneously the GC is committing to get her writings translated and into the homes of 2,000,000 new members around the world by the year 2010. She is essential for Adventism, yet in the internet-savvy world of modern Adventism, she is also a liability. What a tightrope they walk--and how deception compounds intself! I just read a great portion of the latest Adventist Today. If you have access to it, you should check out a few of the articles. (They will be online eventually.) This entire issue features articles by female Adventists. There are about 5 articles by students at Union College. Two of these refer to what I am certain is this very website and discuss the consternation they experienced as they read negative things about Ellen White and SDA theology. One, entitled "Learning to Believe" by Angela Schafer, talks about coming "across a Web site made by former Adventists." Here's a brief quote: "My heart beat faster, and my throat constricted as I read the accusations that were posted: Ellen White was not a prophet; the investigative judgment teaching had no basis in scripture; the Ten Commandments, and therefore the Sabbath, were done away with at Christ's death. I was terrified. Although I didn't want to read, I sat transfixed in front of the computer screen. "After more than an hour, I finally left and called my fiancÈ, Michael. Fear gripped my heart like a mousetrap. I wept as I told Michael about the things I had read." She continues to tell how she decided to investigate for herself, and began asking many people what they believed and why they were Adventist. She finally concluded that "God is leading in the lives of the people who are leading this church," and although she still has questions, "I think God can handle my questions." Here is her concluding paragraph: "I read "Life of Pi" during the time that I was searching for answers, and one sentence struck me. 'To choose doubt as a philosophy of Life is aking to choosing immobility as a means of transportation.' So I choose to believe." I found it so very sad, and I feel compelled to pray for her. She represents, however, so many like her. The deception and confusion are profound. The clarity of the pure gospel is a treasure, but so few people see it. Please, Father, send your Spirit to comfort the fearful and open the eyes of the blind to see Jesus only. Please help us to be transparent vehicles of the presence of Jesus. Please keep us faithful and honoring You. Thank you that You complete the work you begin in us. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 922 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, Colleen. That is so sad, as you said. That quote shows so extremely well the totally cultic nature of SDAism. Any evangelical Christian who doubts that SDAism is a cult should read that quote, especially since it comes from someone who remains SDA! I also found it very interesting that she wrote, "...the accusations that were posted: Ellen White was not a prophet;" They don't seem to be able to even acknowledge that there are people who believe that Ellen White is a false prophet--not just "not a prophet"! Jeremy | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 758 Registered: 7-2000 |
Oh yes, Colleen! "the clarity of the pure gospel is a treasure..." It is so sad for me to see so many other regulations added onto the completeness and supremacy of Jesus alone. Jesus is not quite enough for salvation and daily living in many eyes. It seems often as if Christ is just one of a number of beliefs needed--almost on equal footing with all the other doctrines--when really, Jesus is so far above anything! Worship and love of (and by) Him is all we need. grace, cindy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2397 Registered: 12-2003 |
I've often thought that to an Adventist, Jesus is like a ticket to Disneyland. You can't get in without the ticket, but you can have the ticket and not go in if you choose not to. You can have the ticket but have no transportation, for instance, and...no Disneyland! You're right, Cindy--He's often "just one of a number of beliefs needed--almost on equal footing with all the other doctrines". Colleen | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 48 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi guys, Colleen, you and many of the others on this site probably know more about Adventist doctrine than most Adventists do. Most lay members who I know would have no idea what you were talking about if you said, "Investigative judgement." They know that 1844 was the "great disapointment" and that is about it. As for Ellen White, they might know that she was the church founder and considered a prophet, but many don't know much more than that. Things like the 2,300 day prophecy, beasts, dragons, and women of Daniel & Revelation are a total mystery to an alrming number of SDAs. I suppose this would apply mostly to people born into the church, or who joined as children. New members and the generation who were members like in the 1950's seem to be more knowledgeable. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 976 Registered: 7-2003  |
Heh heh, well I wasn't born in the 1950s. I'm a Gen X'r born in 1969 (I'm 35). I grew up on a steady diet of "Revelation Seminars" and "Amazing Facts" evangelists in the 70s and 80s, but that's not where I learned most of this stuff. I learned about the IJ, 2300 day prophecy, SDA view of Daniel and Revelation, etc. in SDA grade school as well as academy, as well as college. I know the SDA doctrines because of 18 years of the SDA education system. That's what it's there for and it still teaches all of these subjects today. I know because my daughter received some of this indoctrination in the first grade just a couple years ago. Chris | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 165 Registered: 2-2005 |
This is actually why my wife started having questions about the Adventist church, because of the SDA home school religion curriculum for our KINDERGARTENER. The material included a large portion devoted to the early church, 2300 days, EGW (the rock, the visions, etc.), why EGW shouldn't be questioned ("...and Joseph Bates never doubted Ellen again..."), etc...indoctrination, pure and simple. Neither of us could believe this was being introduced at such an early age. She did elect not to teach our child any of that stuff. The producers of these materials are fully aware that kids this age don't understand these concepts, but they know that at least it gets Ellen's name etched into their brains along with the other questionable doctrines to make it seem familiar and normal later on. This caused my wife to look harder at the "My Bible Friends" and "The Bible Story" series, as well. If you haven't checked out the creation story in MBF, wow! Heretic | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 996 Registered: 7-2003  |
The one and only time I heard B's pastor teach was at a campout a few years ago. The text was Daniel 8:13-14 and he gave a pop-quiz on prophecy stuff and the only one answering was a high school kid. The pastor made the comment about the quality adventist education. His point of the whole sermon was the IJ...and keeping prayed up so you didn't have to fear it. If you confessed your sin, and you hadn't yet committed any sins that day, you were without sin. He even asked for a show of hands of those who were sitting in the room without sin that day. He asked it 3 times because people weren't raising their hands. His poor wife just kept waving hers in support of her husband's efforts. I don't know how many people responded, I was in shock over the question itself. Something about 1 John and God being a liar....  (tongue firmly in cheek....) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2404 Registered: 12-2003 |
Our boys were getting Ellen-ized at a young age, also. They weren't getting it from us, but they got her at school, and they got A LOT from relatives other than us. Even though I went to SDA school in the 60's and 70's (where I got healthy doses of SDA theology and Ellen), I'm certain that a large number of my peers never really internalized or remembered the stuff. They were deeply affected by it, but I doubt many could tell you what any of those details are. For that matter, I can't really explain the timeline of the 2300 days, either. I really think the reason I'm fairly clear on the doctrines in general is that I desperately wanted to know and do the RIGHT THING. I had questions about many things growing up, but I had to understand the doctrines in order to embrace them--unlike a lot of my peers who zoned out, accepted the idea that they were "truth", but never really understood them. Then, as I became an adult and my questions persisted, I would study various doctrines just so I could "make sense" of them. The IJ failed my study test, but because I didn't understand the new covenant, I kept getting stuck on the Sabbath. Adventist doctrines are still being taught, some places more stringently than others. Some places they're being redefined (as in pre-advent judgment), but they're not being abandoned. The lack of details of Ellen's writings among many younger SDAs, however, does not negate her power over them. She's still being upheld as an authoritative voice in the church, and the fact that people don't know what she really said just makes them better able to defend her blindly . The spirit of Adventism still claims them. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1775 Registered: 3-2004  |
As a part of the older gemeration, who got EGW from 1st grade through graduation from LLU, I am one of those who did not question what I was taught. I believed because I was taught not to question my elders and that included the teachers and parents. I studied enough to pass the tests. I vaguely remember a discussion on justification vs sanctification. Thank You God, I forgot all of that. I am being introduced again to what I studied since I decided not to rejoin the church. The one thing that stayed strong in my mind was the sabbath being a salvation issue. It was never anything about Jesus Christ. Thank you God for your awesome love and gently pulling me out. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 607 Registered: 7-2004 |
I sometimes think that those who zoned out in bible classes are the ones who stay the course as cultural Adventists. They have blindly accepted the Adventist way of life, but cannot really tell you why when pressed for support for their doctrines. They will get insensed if challenged, and are most likely to be insulting once they find you have studied your way out of their way of life. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2406 Registered: 12-2003 |
Belva, you're right. You stated that so well: "They will get incensed if challenged, and are most likely to be insulting once they find you have studied your way out of their way of life." I think more and more that Richard is right in his assessment: those who take the SDA doctrines most seriously are often the most likely to be convinced by truth, because those who take the doctrines seriously are really wanting to "do the right thing". The others, as Bleva said, like the culture and the security but don't bother to know what they believe. That attitude leaves them insulated against really knowing or changing. I am so thankful that God pulled me out, as Diana said above! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1780 Registered: 3-2004 |
Then there are those who leave the SDA church a little at a time, marry some one outside the church, do not live adventist lives and yet still cannot let go completely. That is 3 of my sisters. They do not say why they have not practiced adventism, but can get defensive. The 4th one knows why she does not like the church and God and will tell me why. I just figure, I will let God work on her and accept her. She is so much better in His awesome hands. You FAF people who were at the Bible study met her. So I continue to pray for all of them. God, you are awesome in all you do. Diana | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 71 Registered: 1-2005 |
The stuff I learned in school, at home, and in church seems to have kind of left me. I remember sort of generally, and the funny thing is, I probabably still know about these thins than the average Adventist. You all bring up a good point. As an Adventist, you can't dig too deep into your own beliefs without beginning to question them. | ||
| Weimarred Registered user Username: Weimarred Post Number: 72 Registered: 1-2005 |
As a side not, Derrell, a long time ago, you said: "I'm an old Weimartian and assume you are too. When were you there?" I went there from 82 thru 89. Did we overlap at all? Look forward to hearing from you. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2002 |
Weimarred, Yes we did. I was there for the year 88-89. I stayed in Hillside in the Northeast corner room. I think I might have an idea who you are by one of your earlier posts. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2002 |
Belvalew, Good point. |
