| Author |
Message |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 560
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 9:30 am: |     |
Brian,
I am interested in your story about Amazon river missions. My grandfather was Leo B. Halliwell, an SDA missionary on the Amazon for 27 years. Did you ever hear of him?
Also Hank Hanegraff took over the ministry of Walter Martin under very questionable circumstances. The Martin family basically accuses Hank of taking advantage of Mrs. Martin, around Walter's death, and that he never intended that Hank take it over.
You are also right about Universalism, although it is not just former SDAs who adopt this, but it is the dominant theology of Loma linda and Riverside area churches. The biggest proponent of this is Dan Smith, pastor of the La Sierra Univ. church. So Adventism in SoCal is toally different from not only Adventism, but they are beyond the pale of evangelical orthodoxy. Richard Rice teaches a Sabbath School class at LLU church, where they deny that God knows the future completely, they deny that the story of Isaac almost being sacrificed by Abraham is true, and instead of studying the Bible, they study books by liberal authors who also deny the faith.
Stan |
Benevento
Registered user
Username: Benevento
Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 9:59 am: | |
Speaking of So Calif. religion--does anyone know where Steve Daly is? Last I heard he was moved from La Sierra to Garden Grove, but isn't there now. I've been out of this a long time. I thought they moved him because of his more or less "social reform" beliefs, but I may be wrong. I was wondering what the LL bunch were emphasizing these days.
I took a couple of books on cults out of the
Church library where I have been attending and
was interested in what they said about SDA's. They were kinder to them than they were to JW and LDS. Felt you could be saved as an SDA, just wished they'd drop the unBiblical beliefs that
we all object to. Will someone explain Universalist beliefs to me? |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 145
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 10:13 am: | |
Benevento,
Looks like Steve Daily landed at Celebration Center in Redlands. The choice surprises me a little since he never seeemed like the most dynamic speaker in the world. When I was at La Sierra University in the early 90's, we used to call him "Gary Shandling" because that's kinda who he sounded and talked like. You can find more info on him here:
www.celebrationcenter.net
Heretic |
Benevento
Registered user
Username: Benevento
Post Number: 33
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 12:01 pm: | |
Thanks Heretic, that is interesting to me, my late husband was a distant relative and so we had kept track of him--dance ministry? Is this an
SDA church?(I don't think in the Pacific NW) I know he had been interested in
community outreach--so I hope it is a blessing in the community. Redlands doesn't strike me as a
poverty pocket, but it's been some time since I've
been down there. And we all need the Gospel--hope they hear it there!! |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1887
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 1:05 pm: | |
I sometimes partisipate in doing The Stations of the Cross. Every Catholic church will have the 14 stations where a person will lament and medicate on what Jesus went through prior to being cruisified. There are 14 of these meditation spost. Some churches have pictures, some have statues, whatever, I think all catholic churches have the same 14 stations. Some folks do their Rosaries at the stations, some like me, meditate on the Greatest Sacrifice. now, this gets me to wondering about the EGW stained glass window. Do those faithful SDA's do their stations ar the stained windows and when they get to the EGW window do a deep meditation and prayer about or for the soul of EGW? Just wondering. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1888
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 1:14 pm: | |
Chris, I'll share with you a funny conversation I had with a good friend of mine who is a born and raised and totally dedicated Catholic. I was telling her how the California SDA's are a sore in the side of the SDA general conference, they tend to do their own thing and deviate from the official church teachings and practices. She then told me that generally the Pope really has no use for American Catholics other than wanting the American Catholics offerings and other donations. But, even beyond the Popes disdain for American Catholics is His total abhorrance of California Catholics. Me had my friend sure thought that was funny. |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 222
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 1:23 pm: | |
Loneviking, nothing was taken personally. I agree with you about Dan Simpson and "universalism" and how heritical it is. You asked if I'd ever been to RCC? yes but I think only once because I realized it was more of the same. I was attending elsewhere for a long time to receive my "Biblical food".
I've been out of the "Adventist" loop for awhile and totally unaware of some of the things going on locally amoung SDAs that you mention, particularly how widespread Universalism is. I know more about what is happening amoung nonSDA churches than SDA.
I also agree that to many SDAs Celebration would be considered heritical, to both the conservative and liberal wings of the church.
Please keep Celebration in your prayers, God is working in mysterious ways.
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com |
Benevento
Registered user
Username: Benevento
Post Number: 34
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 2:02 pm: | |
Susan_2 I was born into a Catholic family, lived for four years in a Convent School, and well remember the stations of the cross. We "did "them very regularily and when my mother became an SDA
and took me out of Catholic school, i really did
miss that ritual, and the meditation on Christ's sacrifice for us. I always felt the emphasis on
what Christ did for us was lacking in the
SDA church and hated the sermons on Easter about
it's heathen origins!! I used to say if we can't celebrate the resurrection when everyone else is
why can't we do it another time, it is still the
only reason we can ever be saved. Never got an
answer.I love the joyful music, especially after
mediditating on the horrible death Christ suffered
for us. We were living in California when the Pope
visited there but we were visiting in Rome and listened (I guess you would call it that) when he returned and told the congregaton about his vist. All we understood was California
every now and then. Now I wonder what he said!!
For all the Catholics independence from the Vatican I'm told that US Catholics are generally
more devout than European ones. We enjoyed seeing the different art work on the stations when we
were visiting all those churches. Every church has something, if only pictures, but most are
interesting. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 562
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 3:27 pm: | |
Benevento,
You asked above about what the doctrine of Universalism is. I will try to give you my understanding, but someone else may be able to explain it better. I am going by what I hear preached on Sat. am on the radio from Dan Smith at La Sierra Univ. church, and what little I know from his book. He is saying that basically everyone is already saved. Everyone is going to heaven who wants to go. However, you have the choice to opt out if you don't want to go to heaven. And if you don't want to go, there is no literal punishment in the Lake of Fire like even traditional SDAs teach for even a finite period of time (in proportion for your sins). Imagine the impact that this type of teaching could have on a whole generation of college kids. Smith and Maxwell both deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ.
There is another famously liberal church in the San Diego area called Tierrasanta pastored by Gary McCary, who has been there for over 10 years. My Dad and I almost got up and left one Sat. AM when we heard this so-called "pastor" telling us that you could not really trust the Bible. He stated that it is very unlikely that Daniel wrote the book of Daniel. That "church" which hosts the San Diego Adventist Forums, is nothing more than a social club. They don't really believe in very much. Yet Desmond Ford gets booted for being orthodox in every way except on the question of the Sanctuary--Go figure!
Stan |
Wooliee
Registered user
Username: Wooliee
Post Number: 27
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 3:36 pm: | |
I am from California, and moved to the mid west last year. When we started visiting Adventist churches here, we felt like complete outsiders. Some people were even a little on the unfriendly/strange side when we told them we were from California. The little churches were very friendly, but they were also much more conservative. Honestly, I felt like I was visiting another denomination at times! |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 273
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 4:53 pm: | |
The idea that the Bible might contain errors isn't limited to "liberal" churches in SDAism. In order to defend EGW's gift, the White Estate attacks the Scriptures.
quote:Seventh-day Adventists do not believe in verbal inspiration (the idea that God dictates the exact wording to the prophet). With the exception of the Ten Commandments, all the inspired writings are the result of the combined efforts of the Holy Spirit, who inspires the prophet with a vision, an impression, a counsel, or a judgment; and the prophet, who begins to look for sentences, literary figures, and expressions to convey God's message accurately.
God gives the prophet freedom to select the kind of language he or she wants to use. That accounts for the different styles of the Biblical writers and explains why Ellen White describes the language used by inspired writers as "imperfect" and "human."
Because "everything that is human is imperfect" we must accept the idea of imperfections and mistakes in both the Bible and Ellen White's writings....In accepting His ways, we also must be careful not to confuse the content with the container. We must not discard the "treasure" inside just because the "vessel" is imperfect and sometimes unworthy. from: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/dynamics.html
Please note that the quotation that is used as the basis for this entire teaching, namely "everything human is imperfect", is a quotation from EGW NOT from Scripture. So this little quote is also a prime example of SDA doctrinal teaching based on EGW. But that is another topic.
|
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 860
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:36 pm: | |
That quote always bothers me in one other way, too. They say, "with the exception of the Ten Commandments"--what about all of the other instances where the Bible makes it clear that God actually said those specific words??
The White Estate also states on their web site:
quote:But to attempt to prove that all the alleged "errors" in Ellen White's writings are not actually errors, is unprofitable for at least two reasons.
[...]
Second, Seventh-day Adventists (including Ellen White herself) do not claim that either she or other inspired persons were infallible, either in their writing or living. Alleged discrepancies and factual errors are only fatal to views of inspiration that demand perfection in human language and in the human instrument presenting the divine message. Such views run counter to what is observed in Scripture--the standard by which we are to judge our conceptions of how God speaks.
In evaluating so-called errors, one needs to consider whether the perceived "error" is central to the divine message, or inconsequential. Even when it is central, we need to allow for the possibility that the Holy Spirit may "correct" the prophet in a future communication.
--http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/faq-unus.html#unusual-section-f
So the White Estate says that SDAs believe that inspired writings are not even infallible! And yet the official SDA belief is actually that the Bible IS infallible, but NOT inerrant!
But yes, Ric_b is right that even mainstream/traditional/conservative SDAs believe that the Bible has errors (is not inerrant), mistakes, faulty language, and uninspired parts to it.
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on July 20, 2005) |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 274
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 6:04 pm: | |
In the description I posted above, Scripture is called "imperfect and sometimes unworthy".
I find myself wondering how I could have buried my head about information like this for so long. I knew there were errors, but I sat by and kept telling myself that it was just a mistaken emphasis, some doctrinal deficiencies.
As I move a little further away, it starts becoming clear. SDAism is a dangerous deception that attacks the foundations of Christianity. Attack the inspiration of God's Word and any outside authority starts to crumble (leaving only the Church as an authority?). Attack the Good News of the gift of salvation and leave followers uncertain of their status with God and hopeless when faced with the demands of perfection. Turn salvation upside down and have man vindicating God against charges from Satan by the quality of the life man leads. Shift the focus of believers from the Cross to what they eat, drink, wear, read, watch...basically to what they do. |
Brian2
Registered user
Username: Brian2
Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:28 pm: | |
Stan
I am really not a bazillian mission expert so I am not sure if I remember anything about your grandfather. We worked on the Lazario (sp?) river boats. It was just a five week trip. We were shuttled around the Amazon on the conference Schedule. Campmeeting tents were up. The villages had built special out-houses for us (with a handy hole in the floor!) Always one enterprising person with a generator, and refigerator, and lots of cold Bazillian soda pop. Man we loved that guy!
Mostly we passed out meds and pulled teeth. In one small town we did childrens Imuninizations for the Bazillian government and built a Church in an interior jungle city. We played their town basketball team. They announced it over the city's PA system "come watch the city of ***** basketball team play Team USA. (We hammered them) They wanted to play soccer the next day. (They had their revenge!)
All in all it was a good experience. Just the campmeeting atmosphere is sad to think about now that I am a former. It was all works oriented.
Brian |
Benevento
Registered user
Username: Benevento
Post Number: 35
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:09 pm: | |
Stan Thank you for the explaination of Universalism--sounds like a very convenient belief system!! Wonder who is making the rules.
I also remember hearing a lot about the Haliwell's
and hearing them from time to time. I think they
made more of an impression on me than any other
missionaries I heard after we joined the SDA church. I always thought of them as very Godly people and adventerous! You are honored to have them in your family tree!! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2323
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:17 pm: | |
It really is an act of faith to decide to accept the Bible as the inerrant word of Godóespecially after being trained to critique it as most of us were. The thing that is still so amazing to me is how the Holy Spirit confirms the Scriptures' truth when we decide to read it as God's inerrant word.
I'm convinced that when a person really wants to know the truth, God honors that desire. Arguing about the reliability of Scripture is a philosophical discussion. It doesn't deal with the reality of spiritual understanding which is spiritually discerned. But when one's entire theology is based on an extra-biblical prophet, I guess they've got no place to go except philosophical arguments!
Colleen |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 361
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:43 pm: | |
Well, in order to validate their prophet, the SDA church has to have the inspiration of the Bible operating the same as her alleged gift. So, (the argument goes) we can see how inspiration worked in the life of EGW and thus how it must have worked in the Bible---even though the Bible explicitly teaches verbal/inerrant inspiration.
It reminds me of something I saw on a Mormon site to the effect that they have more trust in their modern prophets than they do in the Biblical ones because the modern prophets are closer in time to today and we can therefore understand them better.
The whole SDA concept of 'thought inspiration' also denigrates the sovereignty of God. God is not powerful enough to make sure that His Word is able to come through perfectly? Even through sinful man? If God can't do that, what kind of limited God is this? |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 563
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:44 pm: | |
Brian,
It was my grandfather who pioneered the Luzeiro boats that went up and down the Amazon.
Yes, Benevento, My grandparents were true Christians, even though they didn't see the problems with SDA, but they were not interested in EGW, as much as they shared Jesus with the natives.
Stan |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2325
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 9:58 pm: | |
Amen, Loneviking!
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 861
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 10:02 pm: | |
quote:It reminds me of something I saw on a Mormon site to the effect that they have more trust in their modern prophets than they do in the Biblical ones because the modern prophets are closer in time to today and we can therefore understand them better.
That's what the SDAs say, too. I believe it was Arthur White (Ellen's grandson) that said that Ellen is better than the Bible because we actually have Ellen's original manuscripts and they are in our language!
quote:If God can't do that, what kind of limited God is this?
The kind of god that can't save us without our help, that needs US to vindicate and save HIM, that has to look through record books for hundreds of years to know who is righteous enough for salvation, and that has to provide people with a period of "probation" in order to find out who he can "trust with eternal life"?
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on July 20, 2005) |
Brian2
Registered user
Username: Brian2
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 7:56 am: | |
Stan
That is very neat to know that you Grandfather started the Luzeiro boats. Thanks for sharing.
Brian |
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