| Author | Message | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2005 |
After a little sober reflection I think I agree with Julie. I had been busy digesting the Covenants, Sabbath rest and hadn't thought about foot washing for a long time. I saw it as a humbling experience, but I do think we have lots of other ways to be of service now, and probably don't need this to remind us. Good to think about though how the King of Kings would wash his disciples feet, because it was needed. A wonderful lesson for me! I need it!! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1686 Registered: 3-2004  |
One of the last times I washed anyone's feet, I really had to pray about it. It was the SDA teacher whose treatment of my son precipitated my taking him out of SDA school. I wanted to wash her feet to make her feel bad. I really had to pray about that. God showed me that I should not do that. I did wash her feet, with love, and not to make her feel bad. My son was out of her reach and in another school and doing very well. I told her he was doing well. She did not have much to say. Since doing that I have only washed one other person's feet and that was a very dear friend in VA who was a member of the SDA church where I used to attend before I moved to NV. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 494 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lydell, I think I remember that you attend a Vineyard fellowship. It so happens that Wayne Grudem quoted above also has attended a Vineyard fellowship, and he is favorably disposed to the gifts being for today, but not in the slightest what is claimed for EGW. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1687 Registered: 3-2004 |
I was looking around the website posted above under the Trans European Division. In Great Britain they have started a church which is called a community church. No SDA connected to it. That is like the Living Water Fellowship down the street from me. They are SDA and do not identify it as such. How deceptive. God is not deceptive. I am so happy I am no longer a part of it. God, you deserve so much more. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 161 Registered: 6-2001  |
I thought it would be the coolest thing to have a footwashing at my wedding, just me and my hubby to be. Of course he thought that was about the worst idea I could come up with. Because of Adventism, he hated footwashing. Isn't that sad? I have actually never had my feet washed, so I thought it would be something really special. Oh well. Maritally, Hannah | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 559 Registered: 7-2004 |
Regarding the practice of foot washing, I've always thought it a beautiful thing, but that it could be misused. For instance, inherant within its make-up is the opportunity to shun someone, or at least leave them feeling like they will be left out. One of the best analogies of footwashing in today's language would be to wash/clean someone else's car after they have made a long trip. They probably started out clean and organized, but over the course of the trip things became jumbled inside the car, and there would be road dust, bugs, and perhaps some mud splashed all over the outside. When the person arrives at their destination, the car is dirty inside and out, but they are tired from the trip. If someone else cleans up their ride for them, it is a truly generous gift. Hannah, I'm with you. The footwashing between the bride and groom could be a beautiful gesture. It would be acknowledging that you have both traveled a bit before the wedding, but now you are going to start out fresh and clean from this moment forward. This could probably work better for people who are not carrying a lot of SDA baggage. Belva | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2243 Registered: 12-2003  |
God redeemed footwashing for me about six years ago at a women's retreat for our church. There were three of us there who had recently exited Adventism, and on Saturday afternoon they had a room set up with water and basins and soft praise music playing for people to wash each other's feet if they wished. The three of us went in and washed each other's feet. It was not related to communion, just to serving each other, and we were abel to think about the whole symbolic service without the overlay of guilt and cleansing that it had in Adventism. It was quite an emotional experience for me. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2244 Registered: 12-2003 |
Okay, here's what Don Schneider, president of the North American Division, introduced on Saturday. Between video clips and live talking, the church unveiled a plan to seriously advance EGWs matierials world-wide. This plan is requiring major funding, and it has a name: "Connecting with Jesus". The plan goes like this: the church is planning to make a package of 10 EGW books available in various languages at a relatively low price. They have a goal of placing 2,000,000 of these sets of 10 in as many reatively newly "converted" Adventist homes by the year 2010. I took some notes, and I'll share what I got: The narrator said that the Spirit of Prophecy gives us instruction not only for the past and the present but also for the future. It performs these three functions: 1) the Spirit of Prophecy "confirms Biblical truth" 2) It "protects us from error" 3) It inspires members to study Scripture There followed testimonials from a variety of people who pointed out many reasons they appreciated the SOP--her writing undergird the philosophy of the SDA education and also medical system around the world, they keep the SDA church focussed on its "passion for evangelism", etc. Then the question was asked: "What if we didn't have Ellen White? What would the church be like?" Then came this shocker: 70% OF ADVENTISTS AROUND THE WORLD DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO ELLEN. They projected that at the current rate of growth, by the year 2020, there would be 50,000,000 Adventists in the world, and most of them would have been members less than 20 years. This presents a big problem because these new members would not be well-versed in EGW. They asserted that God worked through Ellen White, and "if we are to retain our prophetic identity and sense of urgency," the church members must have her books. Access to EGWs books with the accompanying study guides, they said, "is not a luxury; it's a necessity." They said they are calling for contributions. In some places, they said, all ten books will be available electronically; in some places, to save money, two will be published in one book, but the point is the books will be translated in the languages of the people around the world. Her books are "not just documents from the past," the narrator asserted; "they are alive." (Sounds awfully scriptural, doesn't it?) "They help us grow in Christ and focus on the mission intrusted to us. These special instructions must be regarded as of special importance...we must get them before the people." They also said promulgating these books is part of a renewed commitment to preserve their Adventist identity worldwide. They closed by asking people to join in praying for God's special blessing on this project. Then Don Schneider, from a setting at Elmshaven, reflected on Ellen's prophetic gift. He said, from the room where she wrote, that it was here the Lord appeared to her in vision and said, "I am you Savior; angels are all around you. You work here is not yet done." I was struck by how unlike any Biblical Christophany that announcement was. The Angel of the Lord in the OT would announce himself by saying, "Fear Not!" Angels surrounding the person were not part of the situation. It really struck me how Ellen's manifestations really define themsleves as something other than God's appearing. In short, my take on the "Connecting with Jesus" project [besides the blatant blasphemy of the title] is that the growing world church is looking less and less Adventist, and they MUST get Ellen into people's hands if they're going to keep their converts distinct from Christians in general. Keeping Sabbath isn't enough. Without Ellen, the church will have nothing to base its beliefs and practice on except the Bible. If the Bible is all they have, they will become increasingly grounded in truth instead of in the corporate deception. Bottom line, this is a spiritual issue. They intuitively know that they'll lose their converts to Christianity if they can't hold them in the doctrines of demons which they would find in Ellen. I admmit to being outraged at the three claims they make for Ellen's writings: they Confirm Biblical Truth, they Protect from Error, and they Inspire Members to Study Scripture. If this is so, why, exactly, do we need her? The Bible itself will do these three things. Ellen will actually do the opposite. And did you catch that they said her books were not just words from the past were are "alive"? That claim is only true for the Bible--the living book inspired by the Holy Spirit and brought alive in people's hearts by the Holy Spirit interpreting His own words to the one studying. Dear Father, please expose and break the spirit of Aventism and set people free in truth and reality. Please protect each of us from deception and from self-deception. Please keep us faithful and honoring You. Please glroify Yourself through our lives. Thank you for bringing us to Yourself and making us alive in You. You are our God, and we praise You! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 497 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks for that update Colleen. This is worse than I thought it would be. How shockingly deceptive the SDA leadership is! And they compound the deception when they appeal to Wayne Grudem, saying that since he says that the gift of prophecy is still present, then this justifies EGW. But when you read Grudem, you find no such justification for anything remotely resembling EGW's so-called SOP. Possibly that vision described by Schneider was one of those 100 times when EGW claimed literal personal visits from Christ Himself-not just in vision! To call this project "Connecting with Jesus" perpretrates the blasphemous concept that EGW is the "spirit of prophecy" equating her words with "The Testimony of Jesus" in Rev. 19:10. Since 70% of worldwide SDAs don't have access to EGW, it begs the question about the validity of the churches' claimed membership. There seems to be hope with this information age, with the internet etc., that some of this deception can be broken, but most importantly we need to pray and continue to support ministries that are trying to reach our friends and relatives that are still entangled by the SDA church. Stan | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 493 Registered: 7-2004 |
I trust the sovereingty of God in this EGW push in the world church of Adventism...I pray the people who receive EGW, after coming to Jesus through the SDA religion, will see the darkness of man against the exposure of The Light! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1691 Registered: 3-2004 |
It is so disgusting, this push for EGW. So, I will trust God, as there is not much I can do about it. But What I can do, I will do. I will pray for all SDAs around the world, that when they read EGW, they will see, and I borrow from Dd, "the darkness of man against the exposure of The Light." God, You who are the Almighty, please work in your inimitable way, as the SDAs start this push for EGW. Send the Holy Spirit to every SDA and teach them your truths from the Bible so they will see the error when they read her books. May everything be to your names Honor and Glory. You are so awesome. Diana | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 162 Registered: 6-2001 |
So I was reading this "article" on the adventist.org web site about the membership growth status of churches around the world called "Adventist Church: Growing Fast but not Everywhere." It starts out "When people think of the Seventh-day Adventist Church they often think of its explosive growth rate." Maybe in the fairytale world! Anyways the article (http://news.adventist.org/data/2005/06/1120489617/index.html.en)talked about all the places where adventism was growing and one place (Iceland) where growth was static. That made me wonder if they had a report somewhere of the growth in North America. I did find it in the division reports section, and on the surface it seems quite glowing but I suspect there is a big deception going on. "The Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America topped 1 million members at the end of 2004, a milestone leaders credit to evangelism, including media ministries. ... In the past 5 years in North America, 153,000 converts were added to the Seventh-day Adventist family." Initially I was pretty impressed with the roughly 10% growth. But then I noticed: They only mentioned these converts were added. What they didn't say is whether the OVERALL division membership grew. In other words they didn't factor in the people who LEFT!! Does anyone have anything that documents membership five years ago to get the true picture? If I am right, this is PR deception at its worst. Investigatively, Hannah | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 563 Registered: 7-2004 |
Some of us have been out a decade or more. That is true for me, but I still receive Adventist literature in the mail, even though I've asked that it be stopped. I wonder if I'm still counted as a member just because they are mailing their magazines to my address. I also wonder how many other people that is true for. Those numbers can add an awful lot of padding. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 499 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hannah, I have seen figures like 300,000 as the real N. American membership. They keep people on the membership roles that don't exist--for example, my wife and I are still members of the SDA church in good standing, despite asking to be removed 20 years ago. I just haven't cared enough to pursue making sure they get us off their lists. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2248 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, Hannah, I don't know if accurate numbers are available. I believe you're absolutely right about the numbers coming in, but not being accurate with the numbers of those leaving. I've heard the number Stan mentioned above; a person who works at LLU School of Health told Richard that in doing statistics for the LL Health Study they had to contact as many Adventists as they could and solicit as nany to participate as possible. Since counting and tracking are vital in a study like this, they had to get the most accurate numbers they could regarding membership and the numbers of those participating in the study. They contacted local churches to get numbers of local members, and he said the largest number they could get from the churches was 300,000 active members in North America (or the US--I can't remember for sure). Like Stan and his wife (and undoubtedly others as well!), we wrote and asked for our membership to be removed in 1998, but we still get the Pacific Union Conference Recorder every month. I guess that means we're still on some kind of list. (At this point, we're leaving it alone--it's interesting to read what's going on.) Colleen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2003 |
"Hold them guilty, O God; By their own devices let them fall! In the multitude of their transgressions thrust them out, For they are rebellious against Thee. But let all who take refuge in Thee be glad, Let them ever sing for joy: And mayest Thou shelter them, That those who love Thy name may exult in Thee." Psalm 5:10,11 | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 101 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi all: I got this from our former pastor who is attending GC. Thought you might be interested. "For those of you who are interested, we did vote a 28th fundamental belief (Maybe we should give a reward to anyone who can name the other 27 by memory!) It reads as follows: Growing in Christ By His cross Jesus triumphed over the forces of evil. He who subjugated the demonic spirits during His earthly ministry has broken their power and made certain their ultimate doom. Jesusí victory gives us victory over the evil forces that still seek to control us, as we walk with Him in peace, joy, and assurance of His love. Now the Holy Spirit dwells within us and empowers us. Continually committed to Jesus as our Savior and Lord, we are set free from the burden of our past deeds. No longer do we live in the darkness, fear of evil powers, ignorance, and meaninglessness of our former way of life. In this new freedom in Jesus, we are called to grow into the likeness of His character, communing with Him daily in prayer, feeding on His Word, meditating on it and on His providence, singing His praises, gathering together for worship, and participating in the mission of the church. As we give ourselves in loving service to those around us and in witnessing to His salvation, His constant presence with us through the ěSpirit sanctifies every moment and every task. (Ps 1:1, 2; 23:4; 77:11, 12; Col 1:13, 14; 2:6, 14, 15; Luke 10:17-20; Eph 5:19, 20; 6:12-18; 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Peter 2:9; 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:17, 18; Phil 3:7-14; 1 Thess 5:16-18; Matt 20:25-28; John 20:21; Gal 5:22-25; Rom 8:38, 39; 1 John 4:4; Heb 10:25) This will be listed as fundamental belief #11, after #10, ěThe Experience of Salvation and Before #11, ěThe Churchî)" Patria | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 128 Registered: 2-2005 |
Okay, so I watched that North American Division report on streaming video. Now I've met the NAD President, Don Schneider, on a number of occasions and he has always been warm and gracious to me, but the intro at Elmshaven really reminded me of when Mr. Rogers used to take field trips to places like the post office or a grocery store. "Come...let's go inside..." Or, simply, "Come..." along with a side-nod of the head to keep on moving so reminded me of good ol' Mr. Rogers. Something else caught my attention, though. According to the report, tithe has increased every year 2000-2004 (7.7%, 4.3%,3.3%,2.7%,4.8% respectively). So then why the deep cuts made at many levels, pastors being cut galore, etc? And on a related note, it was reported that the NAD has a total membership of 1,006,317 with per capita giving of $1401. However, in light of the fact that the majority of that membership total does not pay tithe, and that the membership is in reality closer to 300,000, best case scenario is that if all of these members were tithing, the per capita giving would be closer to $5000. And since a good portion of the 300,000 probable members most likely don't tithe at or near 10% of their income, it would seem that the per capita giving for those who do tithe would need to be much higher to reach the total they claim. Maybe I'm just being too skeptical or I don't understand it correctly, but it seems like the numbers would have to have been massaged in some way in order to paint the rosiest picture posssible. It doesn't seem plausible that those who do tithe are paying at least $5000 per capita. Overall, the video had an obvious purpose to not only highlight the last 5 years of the NAD, but to exalt Ellen White. The report from Elmshaven, the trip to the White Estate vault to display famous 18 pound (?) Bible, the original manuscripts spoken of in hushed and hallowed tones and shown being leafed through along with the "elaborate" security system in place to protect these priceless documents. Treasurer Juan Prestol also mentioned "how blessed we are when we follow the counsel recorded in these pages." Interesting how EGW was cleverly woven into even the treasurer's report. Heretic | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 500 Registered: 3-2005 |
Heretic, The last paragraph of your post above is the best description of "Whiteolatry" I have ever seen coming out in an official church video. This is classic stuff! I didn't know they had any original manuscripts left to be guarded by their "elaborate" security system--wouldn't it be great if someone leaked those documents to the public, so we could see what they are still hiding! Those "hushed and hallowed tones" when speaking of the original manuscripts is so idolatrous. The whole history of Adventism for 160 years is to exalt Ellen White, and that spirit continues to manifest itself. Stan | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 130 Registered: 2-2005 |
In the last paragraph of my post above, "cleverly woven" could also be substituted with "shamelessly woven" and still be accurate. Heretic |
