| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1863 Registered: 11-2002 |
As many of you know by now a real irratant to me is anything put on or put out by Amazing Facts. Have any of you out there seen the latest issue of the AF magazine? It would be the Summer 2005 issue. It has a two-page ad in it for something promoting themselves. All across the top of the page extending about a quarter the way down the page is a pictorial of God's greats. It starts off with the Old Testement greats, Abraham, Noah, David, etc. Then we get to Jesus, Peter, Paul, other New Testemenbt greates. The next one in line is Martin Luther. After Mr. Luther is Ellen White, then her husband, then other SDA greates through the ages, finily ending with Mark Finley. When I saw that I was just totally transfixed. Is is sub-liminal messaging or is is just plain in-you-face these ate the greates of God's truth? And, how come Jesus is just another person in the long line of the greates?. Colleen, I am going to snail mail this to you this week. Did any of you others see this? Comments, please about it. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 466 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, Thanks for sharing this. Where does Doug Batchelor put himself in this hall of fame? Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 543 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is very telling when Jesus is simply grouped with all of the other giants of faith. I'm afraid I would giggle when I saw such a picture. No, the giggle would become a gufaw. I've never had the "pleasure" of hearing either Doug Bachelor or Mark Finley speak. I'm not regretting that, tho. I've heard enough stuffed shirts speak in my day that I can do without a few more. Jesus is the true giant in all of our lives. I would be humbled to be grouped with Abraham and the others. I'm grateful that I am heir to the promises made to Abraham. Thank you Jesus. Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1656 Registered: 3-2004  |
It just shows where Jesus stands in their hearts and minds. Thank God I do not believe that way any more. He is the Son of God and as that stands head and shoulders above any other great. I will claim the greats of the Bible. I will claim Martin Luther, Wycliffe as a great, but I draw the line at SDAs. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2200 Registered: 12-2003  |
Amen, Diana! I also draw the line at SDAs. Susan, didn't you mention that Doug Batchelor is pictured near Mark Finley in this line-up? Jesus is our all-in-all! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 467 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, I am curious. Was the picture of Jesus any larger than the rest of the pictures, and was Jesus positioned in anyway more prominent? Because, if not, then it must be that Batchelor and Finley are the greatest since they are pictured last. Unbelievable, if this is the way it is portrayed. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2205 Registered: 12-2003 |
Forgive me for answering, Susan, but I know you don't always have access to a computer. Please add whatever details you know that I miss! I haven't seen the picture, but Susan told me that Jesus was pictured the same size and with no special notice; He was just one in the line of spiritual greats. She said she studied that picture for several minutes, absorbing the fact that Jesus was given no special attention and was not set apart from the rest of the people. She also specifically said that no person was pictured between Martin Luther (15th-early 16th Century) and Ellen White (19th century). Apparently no men or women of spiritual signficance lived during those 300+ years...? Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 797 Registered: 10-2004  |
Absolutely sickening. There's not much else to say... And the title of AF's website is (not wanting people to know it's SDA...): "Amazing Facts -Christian Media Ministry" I'm sorry, but that picture alone proves that it is certainly NOT a Christian ministry! As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words... Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 28, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 470 Registered: 3-2005 |
When you think of all the giants of the faith from Luther's day on, it boggles the mind how this group could be so pretentious as to think of themselves as so great. They left out Calvin, John Bunyan, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, David Livingston, John Owen, and so many others. Wow, the arrogance of these people! Stan | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 861 Registered: 7-2003  |
Here's a link to the the latest Amazing Facts magazine online in PDF format: Inside Report Magazine May/June 2005 I see several ads, but not the one that was mentioned. Susan, is there a July/August 2005 issue that has been mailed out, but isn't online yet? Chris | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 467 Registered: 6-2004 |
Reminds me of how the 2 disciples were debating on who would be the greatest in the kingdom. Jesus said whoever exalts themself will be humbled... To rank an SDA official along the same guidelines as Moses, Abraham or even Jesus himself is really proving what type of an ego these people have regarding themselves. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2208 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think we'll hear from Susan later today--she let me know this AM that the brochure was actually It Is Written, not Amazing Facts--hence Mark Finley at the end. Apparently Doug Batchelor wasn't on the time line, but the It It Written greats were. I haven't checked online at IIW to see if the brochure is there or not... Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1864 Registered: 11-2002 |
I owe you all a big apology. The ad was not in the Amazing Facts magazine. It actually is in the magazine called Channels, It is Written. However, I will now give you a plagerized quote of the first paragraph in the ad. It says, "Imagine John the Revelatoron the isle of Patmos as God showed him future events. Did he see how James and Ellen White would spread the gosple using the print technology of their day? Did he see how television pioneer George Vandeman began It Is Written; how global evengelism expanded via sattelite with Mark Finley; and how today, It Is Written has exploded onto the Internet with its cutting-edge ministry?" That's the first paragraph. Then the ad gets into its main purpose, asking for the folks to pledge at least $1000.00 per year to It Is Written. With the pledge of at least $1000 you get a cd. It does not say what the cd is about. I have my guessings but I won't get into guessing on this forum. If any of you have seen that cd please share with us what it is about. Also, No, a thousand times, no, Jesus is just another religious great in the lineup. In fact, Jesus is rather small and to the left of the picture while EGW is center and is the most prominant of those pictured. Actually, Martin Luther and EGW share the center of the picture but even Martin Luther is to the left of EGW and she is definately the center. Doug Batchler is not pictured. Pastor Vandeman, Mark Finely and Shawn Boonsrea are pictured at the end of the lineup. It is really something to see. You all can order your own copy by calling 1-8--479-9056, the tollfree number of It Is Written. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 591 Registered: 1-2003 |
I would love to see this picture. I would carry it with me and when I needed to prove my point, that the SDA have relegated Christ to the back of the bus, and elevated a woman and a day to where Christ should be...I would whip that picture out. Faced with that bit of blasphemous art, what could they say? There is no defending it. Maybe then the SDA would take issue with it and deluge It is Written with protests! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1866 Registered: 11-2002 |
I went to the office supply store and made a copy of the ad. I already mailed it to Colleen at her pmb address. If she has your mailing address Pheeki maybe she can send you a copy. Colleen, I am hoping you take it to the FAF Bible study that you all have and share it. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 472 Registered: 3-2005 |
It doesn't matter whether it's Amazing Facts or "It Is Written", it is all the same! Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2215 Registered: 12-2003 |
True, Stan! Of COURSE I'll share it with FAF, Susan!! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1660 Registered: 3-2004 |
Stan, I agree. It does not matter who put it out, they do not give Jesus his rightful place and that to me is all wrong. Diana | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2003 |
Susan shared with us the quote from It Is Written-- "Imagine John the Revelator on the isle of Patmos as God showed him future events. Did he see how James and Ellen White would spread the gospel using the print technology of their day? Did he see how television pioneer George Vandeman began It Is Written; how global evengelism expanded via sattelite with Mark Finley; and how today, It Is Written has exploded onto the Internet with its cutting-edge ministry?" Last night I was reading 1 John chapter 2:26,27. **I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeitójust as it has taught you, remain in him.** I read the commentary from the NIV study Bible. Here is what it said: "Since the Bible constantly advocates teaching, John is not ruling out human teachers. At the time when he wrote, however, Gnostic teachers were insisting that the teaching of the apostles was to be supplemented with the "higher knowledge" that they (the Gnostics) claimed to possess. John's response was that what the readers were taught under the Spirit's ministry through the apostles not only was adequate but was the only reliable truth. -teaches you- The teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit (what is commonly called illumination) does not involve revelation of new truth or the explanation of all difficult passages of Scripture to our satisfaction. Rather, it is the develpment of the capacity to appreciate and appropriate God's truth already revealed--making the Bible meaningful in thought and daily living. -all things- All things necessary to know for salvation and Christian living." If John did see the spread of Adventism, he wasn't rejoicing. | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 12 Registered: 6-2005 |
That magazine cover reminds me of one of the sermons we heard one of the last times we went to the SDA church in our new hometown. It was given by someone from conference, and it was all about our "wonderful" Adventist ancestors. He had several anecdotal stories about EGW and the congregation just ate them up. Not much about Jesus was mentioned at all. It was really sad. If I had been visiting, completely new to Adventism, I would have been creeped out. Actually, I was raised Adventist and was creeped out by it. When I go to church I want it to be all about Jesus! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2221 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh, great post. I love your final sentence, "If John did see the spread of Adventism, he wasn't rejoicing." Yes, Julie, I agree with you completely. What you noticed really is true; Adventists LOVE their denominational heritage. It makes them feel special and "set apart", and it's part of how they validate their unique "movement". Isnt' it interesting that they really do see themselves built upon the Adventist pioneers, not upon the church formed at Pentecost. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 948 Registered: 7-2003  |
B used to condemn the crusades from one end to the next, and then pointed out that was where protestants came from...I always wondered why he didn't consider adventism from coming from that same lineage. Anyone else encounter that one? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2225 Registered: 12-2003 |
Protestants? From the Crusades? H-m-m-m--doesn't sound familiar! I learned that the Adventist church picked up the Reformation where Luther left off, that SDAism was THE beautiful culmination of what Luther started. I suspect this internal "truth" is what led to the odd timeline of spiritual "Greats" that Susan mentioned elsewhere--pictures of the patriarchs, prophets, Jesus, Martin Luther, Ellen, James, and ending with the It Is Written speakers. Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 868 Registered: 7-2003 |
Are Adventists truly the spiritual heirs to the reformers? To answer that question let's look at the three main points that the reformers contended for; sola fide, sola gratia, and sola sriptura. Sola Fide (Faith Alone) - If there is any SDA doctrine that contradicts "Faith Alone" than they cannot be heirs to the reformation. Does the SDA church officially embrace a doctrine that teaches that the works of believers will be judged to see if they are "fit for Heaven" or "safe to save"? If the answer to this question is "yes", then Adventism has more in common with Catholicism than with the reformers. Sola Gratia (Grace Alone) - If there is any SDA doctrine that contradicts "Grace Alone" than they cannot be heirs to the reformation. Does the SDA church officially embrace a doctrine that teaches that observing a particular day results in either the seal of God or the Mark of the beast? Do rank and file members routinely refer to the concept that one can be saved apart from Sabbath observance, observance of dietary restrictions, and other strictures as "cheap grace"? If the answer to either of these questions is "yes", then Adventism has more in common with Catholicism, which sees "grace" as something to be maintained through works, than with the reformers. Sola Scriptura (The Bible Alone) - If there is any SDA doctrine that contradicts "The Bible Alone" than they cannot be heirs to the reformation. Does the SDA church officially embrace a doctrine that teaches that any extra-biblical writer or writings are "athoritative"? If the answer to this question is "yes", then Adventism has more in common with Catholicism, which sees the Pope and his encyclics as authoritative, than with the reformers. I would invite any Adventist to carefully answer these questions, then prayerfully consider whether Adventism is closer to the reformers or to Catholicism. Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 476 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, Excellent points. If anyone is interested in studying further how Adventism is totally contradictory to the reformation, I would recommend the book "The Shaking of Adventism" by Geoffrey Paxton, which is a classic on this topic. This book can be read online at www.ellenwhite.org, and there is a direct link to the book that was posted on another thread called "The book that propelled me out of Adventism". Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2229 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, excellent post. Thank you for stating it so clearly. Adventism is not reformation Christianity. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1886 Registered: 11-2002 |
This same picture is on the back cover of last weeks Pacific Union Recorder., |
