| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2117 Registered: 12-2003  |
I have a theory that alchohol and caffeine are legal, accessible ways we self-medicate. I also have a sub-theory that whether a person prefers caffeine or alchohol probably has something to do with brain chemistry--or at least temperament. Caffeine is an upper; alchohol is a tranquilizer. My theory is that people tend to self-medicate with caffeine or alchohol based at least in part on which brain chemicals they lack or are are used to experiencing. It's true people use both, but some people are definitely more drawn to one than to another. Now here's my next theory: I believe that, at least to some degree, the Holy Spirit can intercept habitual chemical responses we get used to and provide new ways to handle stress, fatigue, etc. A am so struck by the change I see in my 20-something friend I've mentioned before who, at the advice of her psychologist, has begun memorizing Scripture as her main road to recovery from post traumatic stress disorder and severe bulemia/anorexia. (Her therapist reminded her that her destructive behaviors are based on events that are no longer reality; reality and the truth about herself are found in the Bible.) Now, when she is confronted by a significant stressor from someone in her life, instead of internalizing the anxiety and coursing down the path of self-destruction, fear, and unreality, she is choosing instead to quote Romans to herself and pray. By doing this she is able to stay focussed and to make choices that don't avoid the problem and that also handle the problem instead of escaping into some form of denial and self-harm. Habits of coping are established by chemical pathways in the brain--but Truth and the Holy Spirit can cause a person to form new ones based on reality instead of fear. I certainly don't understand it all, but I do believe our legal drugs of choice often reflect our natural temperaments, and I further believe the Holy Spirit can bring healing and hope to us in those very areas of our life that cause us to desire and hide behind our chosen "medication"! (My weakness is caffeine, by the way!) Praising God for intersecting even our unconscious motives and warped places, Colleen | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 192 Registered: 7-2004 |
PW, I think that you got me on that one. And Colleen, "I do believe our legal drugs of choice often reflect our natural temperaments." That was hot. I believe that as well. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 412 Registered: 3-2005 |
Good points Colleen. I would also add that if a person is using alcohol as a way of escape, or as a coping mechanism for stress, then these may be danger signs that could lead to addiction. Much of my practice of medicine is spent taking care of the terrible effects of alcohol abuse and addiction. Alcohol's addictive effect can sometimes be subtle. Just because a person is following the Biblical injunction to not get drunk does not necessarily mean that they are not at risk. Tolerance to the effects of alcohol tend to build up, so if a person finds themselves having to take more to get a certain desired effect, then this is an important red flag. I would also say to those who are not so inclined to like the taste, or have a history of alcoholism in their families, then by far the safest course is to not start drinking. While Paul made the statement "all things are permissible", well he also says "not all things are beneficial" so in some cases this would apply to alcohol as well. We just need to be cautious in this area and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance in these areas. Stan | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 308 Registered: 7-2000  |
For myself, I come from a long, distinguished family line of drunks! That puts me at a high risk for addiction (knowing my personality!). I have never wanted to risk taking a first drink. And because of my childhood chaotic home life due to alcoholism, even being around people who are drinking is very difficult for me. Bob | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 194 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bob, My mom is the exact same way. It was ten children and two parents living in a "shotgun house" on a street made of sea shells less than a mile off of the bay in Mobile, Alabama. She would tell us how people would laugh at them becuse her dad would come falling up the street and stumbling over into peoples yards every night. Then 4 of her brother turned out to be alcoholics. Each one of them have completely lost their families in the process. Now in their old ages they are shadows of what they once were. It is sad. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 460 Registered: 6-2004 |
I was raised by an alcoholic mother myself, that was enough to turn me off of drinking after seeing the ill-fated effects it took on her. I never really aquired a taste for alcohol, yet I will not make an issue over one who chooses to drink moderately. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2005 |
Wow! The stories here are sobering and remind me to be so very thankful that alcohol has not become an addiction for me. It also makes me ache for those who have suffered at the abusive hands and/or words of alcoholics. I am a pediatric nurse and see what abuse does to children and families. My spirit cries out for them and there are times I cannot even have those thoughts in my mind. To my discredit, I am not strong enough to handle the pain. I have to rely on the Spirit and know that GOD IS IN CONTROL. By these stories, I am also reminded how powerful the Holy Spirit is. The fact that so many of you come from alcoholic homes and families is a great testimony to His work in you. When I read Hrobs story about being an alcoholic and now being able to take a drink without a problem as long as you don't drink too much, I am doubly amazed. My understanding of alcoholism is that if you're addicted to alcohol, you have to stay away completely or fall back into letting the behaviors of the addiction have full reign again. Colleen: I really appreciate your thoughts on addiction, specifically caffeine since that is my drug of choice. I have called it that for a long time. You are right on the money too. I have a naturally melancholy spirit and I suppose the caffeine brings that up a notch, though I've sworn for years that it doesn't do anything for me. In relationship to legalism though, I am amazed at what people will do to rebel and butt against those man-made walls. Cars, houses, clothes, and on and on the list goes. I don't think it's always drugs or even things, but sometimes actions like extreme control. I have seen that over and over and over and (did I say over) again in Adventist pastors. Cheating, stealing, addictions...These are all just some of the outward signs that the Holy Spirit isn't reigning IN us but that we're trying to look like He is. Like we're playing pretend. I did that for so long. PRAISE GOD he has freed me and I pray fervently for those still in bondage to find Freedom as well. It goes back to the reality we find in Jesus. That when I enslave myself to Him, I become free. Wow! I love that! And no wonder it's so difficult to grasp. It goes against every single nuance of a grain in our humanity. Patria | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 414 Registered: 3-2005 |
Patriar, Your impression is correct about the advice that is medically correct--once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. There was a Rand corporation study at one time which possibly showed that some alcoholics could go back to social drinking, but it was highly criticized. I am amazed also at Hrob's story, and all I can say is that his story goes against all probability. If Hrob were my patient, I would have to tell him no way--Stop! Having said that, I did read a book by a Presbyterian pastor who did claim that he did know of cases where such a work of grace and healing was done that former alcoholics were able to at least partake of the communion wine, and even enjoy a drink in moderation. I know that God is powerful, and I will in no way question Hrob's testimony of healing. But as a physician, and much more importantly as a brother in Christ, I would just say, Hrob, be careful, and I continue to pray for you, and I thank God for the great work He has done in your life. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 406 Registered: 4-2000  |
Stan, I also know of someone who was healed from the anguish and addiction of longtime alcoholism--despite several medical interventions that proved useless. As the old song testifies, "God specializes in things thought impossible." Indeed, there is no habit too great that God cannot break. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 921 Registered: 7-2003  |
Stan, I'm with you regarding social drinking for alcoholics ... my uncle was a horrible drunk, but finally fought it and moved up the ranks in AA...and he went to a wedding, thinking he was "cured" after years of being dry, had a drink, not only falling off the wagon, but under the wheels, eventually dying at 48. The unspeakable stories I know from my cousins have done more than enough to turn me against alcohol, not to mention the hefty price tag that comes along with it. It seems if you've seen alcoholism, you either stay away because of it's ugliness or (as in the case of my uncle's kids), you drink to prove you're not as "weak" as the alcoholic you knew. We're lucky they didn't become alcoholics and all only drink moderately now. But the scars in their lives from alcoholism are apparent. On a different perspective, I know the judgemental side of a non-alcohol consumer. I was very harsh on my mother during my teen years because of the alcohol in the house, and that, among many other things, started years of contention that have never really ended. I looked down on her for her 2-facedness (making jokes about having a drink when her "baptist" friends weren't around), and lost a lot of respect for her because of the stance my church took on alcohol. I've become much more balanced in my older years as I realize how ugly and self-righteous that attitude is. I'd still rather not drink, but am no longer uncomfortable with those who choose to. But I will never get in a car with anyone who has had anything to drink. There are just better alternatives to not risk it. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 846 Registered: 7-2003  |
I look at it this way: We've all seen the horrible devastating effects of sex. We've read articles, seen news reports, or have more immediate knowledge of things like rape, incest, child molestation, abortions, unwanted children, sexually transmitted diseases, sado masochism, wife swapping, sleeping around, adultery, homosexuality, sexual addiction, etc. etc. We know that sex has been responsible for absolutely destroying people, and not just the individual making the bad choices, but whole families, children, and other innocents. I would venture to say that no one can point to any other one thing in all of human history that has destroyed more lives than sex. Knowing that sex has the potential to be such an enormously destructive force we have to ask if complete abstinence is perhaps a good option to consider. I think the apostle Paul indicates that abstinence is indeed an option for some. Those, like him, who have completely given over all time, energy, and devotion to their ministry would do well not to marry and as unmarried people should abstain from sex. Also people who suffer from certain psychological disorders, predilections, obsessions, or addictions may need to abstain from all sex. Some examples might include homosexuals, pedophiles, or sex addicts. So abstinence is definitely a valid and safe choice. On the other hand, we must also question if the obvious dangers and abuses of sex make sex wrong in and of itself. Most would say no because sex comes from God and is sometimes praised in the Bible even while limitations are placed on the practice of sex. So sex may not be wrong per se, but should we at least try to convince as many Christians as possible not to engage in sex because of the frightening statistics about its abuse and for fear of ruining their witness. Here we must ask if we have Biblical warrant to go this far. I personally believe itís hard to make a case from the Bible alone that the most holy choice for a Christian is complete abstinence from sex in any context. So what do we do with Christians who choose to get married and have sex within a Godly monogamous marriage? Should we kind of ignore the fact that they have sex with their spouses and try to find some way to at least ìtolerateî them with minimal condemnation? Or should we write something into our church creed or confession that will screen out married people who engage in sex? There is of course a third way. We could view sex in the same way the Bible does. We could come to view it as a good gift from God that is frequently terribly abused by humans and sometimes results in life long addictions and destructive behavior for some. We could do our best to teach our kids about Godís plan for sex versus the worldís view of sex and then do all we can to model a Godly lifestyle that is consistent with our message. We could equally accept as Christian brothers and sisters those who choose to abstain from sex along with those who enjoy sex within a Biblical model for its use. We could see these as equally valid choices made by Christians who are genuinely interested in holiness, rather seeing these choices as value statements. Finally, we could exercise Biblical counseling, accountability, and discipline with those who choose to abuse sex outside the Biblical model and understand that ìabuseî should not be confused with Godly ìuseî. Of course, I have a feeling that this ìthird wayî is far too radical for most of the Church. Chris | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 217 Registered: 8-2004 |
 Thank you for that post Chris! I agree. | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 195 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, great post. My question is what constitutes sexual immorality, as Paul call it? Alcohol is actually a pretty visible allowance in the Bible. But sex has a wide realm. David had concubines but it didn't seem as if the Bible minded very much. Was that not sexually immoral? I don't know. How much of what we think of sex is bent by society? I am glad that you said something because I had been thinking about how I am going to talk to my daughter about it when she comes of age. It is a thin line to walk. What are the boudaries of sex being right or wrong? | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2005 |
That's a good question HRobinsonW. I spent 20 years in a marriage where my husband was having affairs, sleeping around with who knows who. Of course, it appeared that I was in a "good" marriage. I think most people would say I was a moral person because I didn't cheat on my husband. But life was hell. I suffered immensely. After our divorce, I finally met a man I would eventually marry. My ex was still taking me to court over trivial things for 10 years after our divorce. I didn't want to marry while this was still unsettled. Eventually we lived together for 4 years before we married. I was in a MONOGOMOUS relationship with him (on both our parts). This "immoral" monogomous relationship was far better than my "moral" non-monogomous marriage had been. I still question which is the truely moral relationship. At least my last one is honest! All I know know is that I am human, I sin, I am not perfect. But, praise the Lord, I am saved in spite of myself! -tisha | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2129 Registered: 12-2003 |
I believe the Biblical instruction on marriage and divorce "tightened up" in the New Testament because when a person is born again, he literally takes the Person of the Holy Spirit into everything he or she does. When one is alive in the Spirit, the issues of commitment and morality are clearer than when one is "in the flesh". 1 Corinthians 6:12-20 quotes Genesis 2:24, reminding believers that sex cause "the two [to] become one flesh". The passage directly says that when a Christian "unites" with a prostitute, he takes the members of Christ into that unitingóa really unthinkable transgression against God. Verse 18 says to flee from sexual immorality. The context here is clearly that sex outside of a marriage is immoral. While one could argue that a prostitute isn't the same as a "committed" relationship, still if one is not willing to legitimize a "commitment" with marriage but is willing to consummate the relationship anyway, there's a lack of respect and integrity for one another there. Further, sex without a husband's commitment to care for the woman as Christ loves the church--or without the wife's agreement to respect her husband (Ephesians 5) is sex without the promise of security. Christ does not enter into relationship with us without a promise of security. For God to indwell us is the ultimate form if intimacy. He does not indwell us, however, without the eternal security that He went to the cross for us--or without our surrender to Him. The intimacy of the new birth does not happen until a person surrenders in commitment to Jesusónor did it happen before Jesus died for us. The literal fulfillment of Jesus' promises and our submission to Him have to happen BEFORE the intimacy of new birth. The Bible's teaching on immoralityóa teaching especially stressed in the New Testamentóclearly sees sex outside the actual act of life-long commitment to one another as wrong for a Christ-follower. It's not just about a physical act. It's also about literally being Christ's body and bringing Him into what we do. His commitment and death for us sets the standard for a Christ-honoring man's treatment of the woman he loves. Christ did not indwell humans BEFORE the cross. Christ's commitment to never leave us nor forsake us, to hold us always in His hands, also sets the standard for a Christ-honoring woman's treatment of the man she loves. Without submitting to his role of protective head over her as husband (Ephesians 5:22-24), she has no "right" to be intimate with him. I'll go even further out on this limb I'm on by saying that I also believe that sex inside a truly abusive marriage (I'm not talking here about chronic antagonism and fighting) comes awfully close to being immoral. All that being said, the Holy Spirit really will convict us of His will for us. I've found in various parts of my life that when I have an ongoing struggle with "what's right" in a particular situation and have trouble finding resolution, it's usually because at some level I'm fighting against surrendering or defending myself. Generally, if I really decide to give up my "rights" to my opinion or behavior and ask Jesus to show me the truth, the Bible and the Holy Spirit make things clear enough for me to make a Spirit-led decision--if I'm willing to make it! Goodness, I think I just sounded as if I were telling a class of ninth-graders how to live! Praise God for never giving up on us; for persisting in teaching us and revealing Himself and His will to us. Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 512 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, I agree that your description of marriage, as the Saviour would want it for us, is what we need to aim for. Some of us, no matter how hard we try, will never have that experience. When I married, I was committed to the relationship, and so was my husband. However (don't you hate that word?), being mere humans, we slipped away from the ideal. I became a better rug than a woman, and because he was raised in a verbally/emotionally abusive home, he brought that baggage into our home. He had to control every aspect of our lives from what we ate to what each of us wore, and on and on, and then he complained when he had so many "responsibilities." The verbal abuse became so pervasive that the kids and I were more likely to be looking for ways to appease than to look for solutions. My husband was/is bi-polar, and that condition does not improve with time, and needs to be treated. Time and situation was not on my side, but I was determined to live up to my wedding vows made before God and all of our family and guests. The whole marriage was a sham, and we were all being severely damaged because we stayed together too long. Toward the end of the year last year my husband told me he had to find himself, and that meant he was leaving me. I felt nothing but relief. We are still "legally married" but the relationship is dead. I waited until all of the goods and property held in common had been dealt with (am still waiting with regard to vehicles), then I will file. I know that for all our sakes this was the best thing to do. I'm not looking for another relationship, I'm looking for peace of mind and a place where I can feel confident within myself again. People who promise to love and support each other need to do that. Marriage cannot be one-sided (see Tisha's post). Speaking from my position of experience I would recommend that people considering marriage tell each other honestly what they expect a marriage to look like. Some marry because they want a dependable sex partner, some because they are looking to be taken care of. I thought I could help my husband repair his brokenness after his experiences with an overbearing parent -- you know, love conquers all -- it doesn't. I wrote this because I wanted to make it clear that even with the best of intentions, our humanness can get in the way. The ideal of marriage is difficult to achieve or maintain. Some of us don't always get it right the first time. I praise God that he is willing to forgive our brokenness, and will help us to pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off. Some of us he will even send back into the game, because that is the right thing for that person. I believe that Tisha's experience as expressed above bears that out, and she is right to be so thankful that she has had this second chance, and that this time the relationship is a committed bond. I believe that God is in those types of relationships. None of the rest of us have any rights to pass judgments on each other. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 847 Registered: 7-2003 |
Good discussion on God's plan for sex. I should probably clarify that I wasn't really talking about sex at all. My intention was to use the subject of sex as a parallel metaphor for alchohol in an attempt to divorce the topic of alchohol from the emotional responses it sometime elicits. Ultimately, my point was that we are able to easily understand the difference between the proper enjoyment of sex and the abuse of sex. We are able to call sex good and healthy even though we understand it's potential for destruction and addiction when abused. We try to teach our children about the proper enjoyment of sex and model healthy attittudes about sex, but also include appropriate warnings about the dangers of abusing sex. My questions are, "Why can't the modern Church take the same approach to other good things that God has given, but have been corrupted by the Enemy? Why does the modern Church see *ANY* alchohol in nearly universally evil terms (or at best as something to barely be tolerated among the more fleshy bretheren)? Is there Biblical warrant to view all alcohol as evil or is it the abuse of alcohol that should be condemned? What attititude did the Jews and early Christians have about the proper use of alcohol? What attititude did Jesus and the apostles have about alcohol?" I know these questions will make some uncomfortable, some angry, and cause some to view me as less than sanctified. The only reason I am speding any time or energy on the issue is that I find the more and more contact I have with other Christians, the more and more I see that legalism comes in all flavors. I sometimes wonder if my fellow Brothers and Sister would look upon Jesus disapprovingly, chide him for runining His witness, or at best consider Him as someone to be tolerated (but not approved of). Chris | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 311 Registered: 7-2000 |
"None of the rest of us have any rights to pass judgments on each other." Belva, this expression gets thrown around all the time. I agree fully with you that relationships are complicated, can be very trying, and that all of us fail in many ways. However, I think as Christians we have a solemn responsibility to agree with Scripture in what we say, and therefore to "judge." Not all relationships are right and acceptable in God's eyes, even if a lot of people (even many Christians) think so. We have to let God, through His revealed Word, tell us what is acceptable and non-acceptable. I am sure my comments will start an uproar on this forum. This is a vital topic in the permissive environment that has pervaded even the Church. So let's have at it! Bob | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 751 Registered: 10-2004  |
Bob, thanks for having the courage to say what needed to be said. I agree that we do indeed need to judge, and be able to say, "this is right, and this is wrong." In fact, God was pretty angry when Christians did not judge a certain immoral relationship (1 Corinthians 5). And Chris, I'm with you, and I appreciated the parallel metaphor. Very insightful. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 15, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2130 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, Chris, I thought your metaphor was good, too. Sorry I didn't comment sooner. Bob, I agree that we must judge based on the Bible. We are not to judge others' salvation, but the NT is quite clear that if a brother falls into sin, those who see it are to call him to repentance and even to administer discipline if there's no repentance. All this is for the purpose of saving his soul. (See the incident in 1 Corinthians 5 above.) Belva, my post above was addressing the idea of what constitutes immorality. It was not intended as commentary on what to do in real life if one finds him/herself in a situation where one is being destroyed or putting one's children in danger by staying. Jesus was very clear that unfaithfulness is a just cause for divorce. I know that all kinds of discussion have ensued over the Greek word translated "unfaithfulness", and I realize that the sense of the word is sexual unfaithfulness. Yet cruelty/genuine abuse, addiction with its accompanying deception, abuse, wasting of family funds, etc, and even persistent, untreated mental illness can put spouses and children in grave danger. These things really are unfaithful to the marriage vows and include the same lack of love and commitment that sexual unfaithfulness includes. Please don't hear me saying that I excuse divorce for causes other than Biblical unfaithfulness or that I condone people leaving less-than-idyllic marriages. I am only saying that certain situations are indeed severely threatening. It is immoral for a person who calls himself a Christian (and even for one who doesn't!) to abuse his or her spouse and children. Certainly situations such as these are times when the church does need to intervene if a brother (or sister) persists in destructive behavior that threatens the safety of his or her family. And certainly we as Christians must protect the vulnerable and refuse to enable immoral behavior, even if it's very close to us. Colleen |
