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Noticeofappeal
Registered user
Username: Noticeofappeal
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 2:40 pm: |     |
Kids can be cruel. I remember one little boy telling a third grade non-SDA sunday keeper evildoer that she better convert and learn the *real* sabbath, or risk heaven.
For the most part, however, the kids at my school were pretty accepting of the non-SDA students (probably 30 percent?). I would hope the SDA kids at your daughters school would be able to let it go. I'm not sure there is really a witty or snappy response, though. Best is really to walk away and/or find new friends, if possible. Getting into discussions over the sabbath with an SDA will just get your daughter into many arguments.
If there are good schools around, consider them? Good high schools? I still really resent (resemble?) the emphasis on adventist higher education. Plus, the adventist schools don't do what it takes to prepare high school students for getting into good colleges. Encourage your children to do what it takes (if they want) to go for a good college, etc. Just watch that they don't get railroaded into AUC, SAC, WWC, etc. I learned the hard way as a professional engineer, and now as an attorney, that adventist [higher] education is simply not respected (or known) outside of adventist circles.*
*Perhaps medicine as the exception. |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 10:44 pm: | |
Dd and everyone:
What a great discussion. What you've all said is so true.
Colleen: I've been thinking a lot today about what you said regarding SDAs being held together by 1844 and the IJ. Since we're fairly new to being "outsiders" it kind of hit me hard. Something else you said has me off-kilter as well...that there are demonic influences within the SDA church. (I'm paraphrasing)
Before you read the rest of this, please know that I'm not overly suspicious. I do have the gift of discernment, but I do not read much into many of my "feelings" because I think they're often tainted by my background and have really been learning to focus my heart and mind on Christ and really listen for His discernment.
But Colleen's statement reminded me of something a tad bit off the subject that happened last weekend. I was at our former SDA church for a baby shower and very few people were talking to me. One elderly gentleman did approach me to tell me he'd heard the 'sad' news. I said you mean the news that we're attending a Sunday church. He said yes. I'm praying that you'll see the light and come back to us. I told him that we had to follow where the Lord leads and he told me that the Lord couldn't possibly be leading us to 'Babylon'. He went on to say that the Bible says we have to belong to the 'true, denominationalized (his word) church.' I asked him for the Bible reference and he told me if I looked hard enough that I'd find it. He then said that the Spirit of Prophecy is what makes it the "true" church. He was standing over me and I reached up to pull his ear towards me because he's hard of hearing...and spoke right into his ear. I had decided to be frank with him since he was being frank with me and I said, 'Ellen White is not the voice of prophecy...she simply cannot be.' Then it got really weird...this wonderfully kind man who has always been nothing but loving, literally reared back and got a look in his eye that I can only describe as demonic. I'm reluctant to even put that into words, but it was after Colleen's post that I began to really take that seriously. I had spoken with my husband about it right afterwards and said it was really weird. But Colleen, your statements about demonic influences within the church has hit me hard today. I think I'm just coming to terms with the reality of it. I don't know what the implications of that are, and I'm not sure I'm ready to deal with it. But it make me want to fall to my knees and PRAY my heart out until every last one in bondage is freed!
Patria |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2147
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 11:55 pm: | |
Amen. |
Lindylou
Registered user
Username: Lindylou
Post Number: 64
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 5:04 pm: | |
What a great discussion here. It has got my brain juices flowing. "Dd", I know that you mentioned your concern about the girls the last time we were together. I didn't have much time to digest the idea. Putting all these thoughts together from the thread have made me think a bit.
I wonder if trying to have "answers" ready for the doubters or questioners is the best way to approach things. I know that I fumble at having an appropriate well worded answer ready for such times. I have decided that for me - the best approach is to know what I believe. Boil it down to several simple concepts of belief that are in my heart and therefore easy to state to others.
You and I both know that trying to convince SDA's of anything is rather futile. And if what Patria and Colleen were saying is true - about the demonic darkness - the veil that seems to cover many SDA's eyes - well...... the only thing that would be beneficial is much prayer!
(I'm just thinking out loud here.)
I would have to agree with "Noticeofappeal"'s comment that it might be best for our children to avoid getting into discussions about doctrinal issues. It seems that the only time there is any headway in being able to dialogue about these things is when someone is sincerely wanting to know truth.
I have told my own girls to try and avoid such discussions because they tend to be a waste of time and energy and just frustrate them. I also wonder about the parents of the other kids. I don't know that they would appreciate too much of this type of discussion.
I don't want to be "poo pooing" your idea for the girls. But I just wonder about what is the right approach.
I just asked my 17 yr old and 14 yr. old this question - "in your discussions with your friends on doctrinal issues - does it help to get into a discussion about them?"
My 17 yr old says that it is rather pointless unless the other kids really want to know what you have to share. Most of the time she thinks it best to just confidently share what you believe (ONLY if they ask) and express the fact that you love Jesus with all your heart. If they don't ask - just keep quiet and let your life be your witness. If the occasion arose, she would say that it is best not to judge people for their beliefs. ( She goes to an SDA academy and has struggled with this issue for two years. It used to frustrate her so much until she came to the conclusion on her own that it is best for her to just live her beliefs confidently - without trying to defend them to her friends. She is willing to answer questions - but has decided she will wait until they are asked.)
The younger daughter- would like to just focus on who people are inside - not get into judging them because of religion. She too, thinks getting into a discussion is rather useless.
I was thinking today (Saturday)- as I was running my yard sale and feeling a bit guilty about it because my staunch SDa relatives had some items in it for sale - and my neighbor is SDA - what my response would be to my sister-in-law if she drove up and saw me "selling" on THE SABBATH!
I decided I wouldn't want to get into an argument or try and convince her of why I can do this with liberty in Jesus. I think my response would have been - "I now have a 7-day a week spirituality - I rest every day in Jesus and not just one!" and leave it at that. It most certainly would not be easy to "leave it at that" but it would be ineffectual to try and reason this issue with her.
I think that is the way it is with most SDA's.
So let's see if I can firm up what I am saying here. In regards to helping our children deal with SDA doctrine in "Bible" class - Is the best approach - having a ready answer/argument or simply being able to state what you believe- if asked? Do our kids have an obligation to speak up in class during religious discussions? Is there a best way to open up dialogue in a non threatening way? Should we and our kids take the defensive or offensive approach to religious dialogue?
"Dd" you have shared the wonderful words of your daughter - who has a talent for calmly putting in her two cents worth in these kind of discussions. You and she ( as well as myself and my daughters) have had great opportunities to study the Bible together at home as the issues arise in class. Perhaps this is the best way to continue - dealing with each topic as it comes up.
I don't know!! I am sorry I got long-winded here - but obviously these are important questions for parents to ask. I look forward to hearing all the wisdom out there!
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Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 924
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 8:19 pm: | |
What I find so fascinating about this whole conversation is KIDS interested in doctrine. We have kids in our church on fire for God, and learning about Christ, but we don't have the focus on "doctrine" I keep hearing about. Or maybe we do, and I just don't recognize it because we study the Bible, typically a book, verse by verse, rarely on topics. My 12-year old and I have more "doctrinal" type talks, but in his class the focus is typically what it means to live for Christ, live like Christ, develop Character, being committed to Christ. I don't ever recall him saying they talked about "state of the dead" and obviously not about prophets and 1844, etc.
I know I was struck by the importance of these things when I began to discover the religion in Bs life. I never knew people could argue so long, so hard, and so condescendingly arrogant over whether one is instantly present with the Lord, or ceases to exist at physical death. I kept telling him, it really wasn't that important to how I lived my life as to which way was "correct" but to him it was crucial, so I studied it out. But it still doesn't change one minute of how I live my life.
I guess that's the bottom line for me and the argument. If it isn't going to change how I live my life, why create such strife over it? Adventism truly is a unique culture. I wonder if other groups (mormons, JW, CS, etc.) are as focused on their distinctives. |
Lindylou
Registered user
Username: Lindylou
Post Number: 68
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:44 pm: | |
Good point Melissa. I liked what you said, "If it isn't going to change how I live my life, why create such strife over it?" As I thought more about this issue today (and talked it over with my parents who gave their life to SDA education over the years) I think I've gotten a new perspective on this issue. It has helped to verbalize it here.
I think the bottom line for folks like myself who still choose to send their kids to SDA schools for whatever reason - is a need to face up to the fact that the whole purpose of an SDA school in the first place is to keep on growing new SDA's! That is why so much money is put into the SDA educational system. It doesn't have anything to do with Christianity really - it is all about indoctrination = an SDA factory.
We as parents need to understand that -and make sure our kids understand that. We should encourage them to stand up for Christ - but not worry about the other "stuff". The teachers who are in these schools are just doing their job when they talk about particular SDA doctrine. And parents pay good money to make sure that their kids are getting that indoctrination.
I think that perhaps we need to "respect" that part of the SDA school system if we are going to continue sending our kids there - and just make sure that we do lots of talking at home.
I would expect that if we chose to send our kids to a Catholic school or any other denominationally affiliated school - that we would respect their particular belief system and not try to get into doctrinal arguments with the folks who are involved in a system built for breeding new members of their church.
Just a thought - What do you think "Dd"? Maybe we need to ease back a bit on this.
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Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 180
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:27 pm: | |
Lindy, I have a sister who is a member of the SDA church who sent her children to a Christian School rather than the local Academy. We all find ourselves following how the Holy Spirit guides us and leads us. In her case they stood up for their beliefs concerning the Sabbath but other than that they felt richly blessed in the greater spiritual atmosphere they found there.
richard
rtruitt@mac.com
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Marcell
Registered user
Username: Marcell
Post Number: 36
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 9:34 am: | |
I have just got to say this about sending kids to an SDA school - please understand that I did the same for several years and I'm not judging your situation.
Remember the story about the scorpion and the frog? The scorpion couldn't swim and asked the frog to carry it on his back across the river - the scorpion swears he won't sting the frog and the frog finally relents and lets the scorpion get on his back and starts swimming. of course, halfway across the river the scorpion stings the frog and now they will both drown. The frog asks why? The scorpion simply says, "You KNEW I was a scorpion when you let me on your back."
I hope you take my meaning.
Marcell |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2152
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 3:17 pm: | |
What I found in the SDA schools was not just doctrinal abberation and indoctrination; there is a subtle but powerful social structure that, to a greater or lesser degree, marginalized the non-SDA kids or kids from a lower middle socio-economic status. This whole social phenomenon was as much of a problem as was the indoctrination. In fact, at the SDA schools in this geographic area, it is more "cool" to be a "liberal" Adventist who questions everything and lives on the edge in terms of dress, jewelry, food, behavior, etc. than it is to be a sincere Adventist.
Anything that smacks of devout commitment, either to Jesus or to the church, tends not to be socially acceptable. What counts is belonging (not leaving the church) and acknowledging the Sabbath--and opportunities to display one's accomplishments or wealth. I'm afraid this sounds cynical, but it really isn't. This phenomenon tends to be absolute reality in the SDA schools in our immediate area.
God's provision, however, may take you places that seem contrary to common sense. The most imporant thing is to surrender the issue to Him and alow Him to lead.
Colleen |
Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha
Post Number: 87
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:51 pm: | |
While I and my children were still SDA, I had a son in the SDA school and a daughter in the local public school because she needed some special help that the SDA School was not able to give. We attended the SDA Church regularly. All those SDA School kids kept telling my daughter that she wasn't really Christian because she went to public School! Not only was she not considered SDA but not even Christian! She kept inviting school friends to come to Church with us because she wanted to share Jesus with them. Those SDA kids made fun of her and especially of her friends who had dressed up for Church. Of course they put on their best clothes and nicest jewelry! She was so hurt to be so shut out just because of where she went to school. Later, she went to an SDA Boarding Academy and told me "Mom, there were more Christians at my public school than there are here!"
That experience led her to leave the SDA Church. My son went to Walla Walla College and that was instrumental in his leaving the SDA Church also. They have not found any Church to associate with.
There really is a social pecking order in the SDA Church. If you are a child of a Conference worker, or of a Doctor, other medical professional, or teacher that is almost an automatic key to entry into the "club". When I was previously married (and SDA), it was somewhat of a dilemna about just where we belonged - we had money (rich is good), but my husband worked in a "secular" environment, sometimes even on the SABBATH (bad). He was charismatic (good), I was a questioning, "doubting" stay-at-home mom (bad). Rich and Charismatic won the day! I'm so glad to be out of that "club"!!! Boy do those labels get confusing! They have NOTHING to do with beliefs!
Now that I'm "out", I so wish I had known sooner the truth about the SDA Church. While I was still in the SDA Church, I knew that I didn't believe all that was taught. I really believed that the Church was changing. One no longer needed to believe in EGW, Grace was being "taught", etc. I wanted to be part of and instrumental in that change. But when I finally realized that it was just talk and not substance, that there was fundamentally NO change and wouldn't be for as far as I could see, I HAD to leave.
After leaving, I finally realized the depth of deception there was, the words they spoke really meant something quite different! I have learned so much now that I can't even imagine how they get away with it all! Now I KNOW the SDA Church is evil. I believe there are many like me who are searching, are trying to do what is right, want to know Jesus intimately who are deceived and don't know it. It's not the people per se that I have a problem with - it's the Denomination and the Leaders who should (and often do) know better. It's the deliberate cover-up that makes me so angry!
Now I just try live as an example and PRAY for my family, friends, and others still in the SDA Church to find a personal relationship with Jesus. I want them to have the courage to leave the SDA Church and find a true Bible-based Fellowship.
I LOVE belonging to the Family of God "club"! It's not all like the SDA Church "club". And it's free! Praise God, Jesus paid the dues for all of us - even me!
-tisha
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Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1631
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 6:09 pm: | |
The social order spoken of brings back memories that I am so glad I no longer feel bitter about.
My parents were poor and I was not accepted by my peers in the SDA schools. Thank God I no longer give it rent free space in my head any more.
The Christians I meet, including those here, accept me for me. I like the "Family of God Club". Thank God for Jesus who paid my dues. He is awesome.
Diana |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 464
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 6:57 am: | |
Having debated with SDA's on another forum, it's amazing how different countries have different beliefs. Some totally disregard EGW and her writings, and others have said that they no longer teach the IJ theory. Talk about building a church on a foundation made of sand. It's constantly changing with the tide. |
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