| Author | Message | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 251 Registered: 7-2004  |
My mind has been mulling something over and thinking entirely too much. Since leaving the SDA church, I probably consider myself less Arminian than I was, but how does a Calvinist have any assurance of salvation? If the free will is where itís at, I know Iím saved because I literally said and think I meant ìI accept Jesus.î On the other hand, thatís shaky because I might not minute-by-minute always accept Jesus as shown by my actions. If itís based on election thatís more trustworthy because God will make sure Iím saved because He chose me to be saved. But, how do I know Iím elected? Yes, I know I desire God and prefer the ways of God (for the most part), but maybe itís because I was raised to have those tendencies. I know the Bible tells me Christians will be known by our love for one another. If thatís the indicator, as a withdrawn introvert, I think thatís probably a weak area for me. If I really were saved Iíd have the Holy Spirit in me and one would then think my love for others would be a strong area instead of a weak area. (Donít get me wrongóI really donít hate anyone, Iím just kind of withdrawn and not actively involved with other people.) Any thoughts? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 510 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Raven, I've struggled with the same thoughts you are having. After our upbringing telling us that at any given moment our salvation is in jeopardy, no wonder you are having these thoughts. It has taken me some considerable time to come to the realization that since I've been called (how do I know, because deep in my heart I know that I love Jesus), our love for the family of God doesn't have to be expressed to a crowd, or in some specific, showy way. Jesus knows our hearts. There are some people who, like the Pharasee, make their very public show of offerings and so forth, but their hearts are in a different place. They want to be noticed by mankind, so they make a big show of their "Christian love." I personally think Jesus is more interested in how we treat others on a one-to-one basis, beginning at home! The Holy Spirit is in the small things of life just as much as in speaking in tongues, or other similar gifts. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 748 Registered: 10-2004  |
Raven, I think we can definitely know that we are part of the elect. Romans 8:16 says, "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God." Also, if you believe and have faith in Jesus Christ--then that means you have been elected and have been given faith (which is a gift, NOT something we do or "have" to "keep doing," the Bible says). 1 John 5:13 says that those who believe in the name of the Son of God can know that they have eternal life. Anyway, that's how I see it right now. I don't know if I agree with every apsect of Calvinism, but I know that I am definitely not Arminian. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 15, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 415 Registered: 3-2005 |
Raven, There is an excellent treatise on Calvinism and assurance of salvation by the greatCharles Haddon Spurgeon at www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm. It is relatively short, but wonderful presentation on election and assurance. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2126 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dear Raven, I so understand your questions. I have struggled over the issue of certainty also. The text Jeremy quoted is the one I would also have given you. Romans 8 is really quite a remarkable chapter. We can know we belong to God because He assures us we do! And, when our hearts condemn us, He is greater than our hearts. (See 1 John 3:18-24). It's not our objective observations of our own actions that convince us of our security; it is quite literally His Spirit in us that is our assurance. I also have grown to believe that God is absolutely sovereign, and He is sovereign even over our salvation. Yet our choices have eternal consequences; the Bible teaches both God's sovereignty and our responsibility for choice. It helps me, however, to think of my choices as being a subset of creation which is ALL under God's control. Again as Jeremy says, even our faith is a gift from God. I understand your questions about KNOWING that we can never be lost. Here's what I've discovered in my own experience: as I surrender to Jesus and commit to growing in Him, He mysteriously and divinely lets me know He is mine and I am His. When I blow it and behave really badly, He finally gets my attention (even if it takes hours--or longer) and convinces me that I need to surrender the issue to Him and make things right. In other words, He takes responsibility for me. He completes what He begins in me. I love what Aslan says to the children in CS Lewis's "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" from the Chronicles of Narnia. At various times he comes to them and tells them in general terms what the future holds for them. After he finishes, the child to whom he's spoken invariably asks, "But what about Polly (or Digory, etc.)?" Aslan tells them (I'm not quoting exactly here), "That is not for you to know. I only tell you your own story." We can't possibly create a "formula" for how God deals with each person. We can know for sure, however, that He is faithful, good, and sovereign, and He has redeemed the world. We can only know for sure, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in us, that we are God's child. We can recognize the Holy Spirit in our fellow siblings in God's family, but ultimately God deals with us individually, and He personally assures us of our security--quite apart from anything we're doing! His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God! Colleen | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2005 |
Dear Raven, Since Adam's choice, we are all born with a will that is in bondage to sin, able only to choose from among different types and degrees of sin. What sort of choices can a person make who is dead in transgressions and sin? Plenty actually. We can decide whether to wear green socks or blue ones. Regardless of the reason, at the moment one chooses to wear blue socks, he prefers those socks to all others. Jonathan Edwards pointed out, ultimately no one has a free will, because the will is nothing more than an expression of preferences and preferences are colored entirely by personality and character. It's an interesting thought. If, lets say, the will is no more than an expression of character, it will never choose something contrary to the character of the chooser. Hence, our Lord's remark to the Pharisees, "You are UNABLE to hear what I say. You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire " (Jn 8:43,44) (emphasis mine) Because they are OF their father the devil, it follows that their DESIRES are his desires. And notice he said, "YOU WANT TO CARRY OUT your father's desire." You really WANT to obey the one to whom you are bound. That is the point. If God left you to yourself to decide whether you would choose or reject him, you would always refuse God as long as you "belong to your father, the devil." As long as you are a child of Adam, Jesus said, "you are unable to hear what I say" (v.43). Your will always follow your character, your heart, your affections. (emphasis mine) I've seen Adventist preachers ask people to write down their sins on little pieces of paper, then while the organ plays, they walked down toward a table up front where they deposited these pieces of paper into a fire. Poof! All sin, all bad habits gone! What the preacher had done was simply to have the people jump through his hoops. Essentially, election is God's making the decision for us that we would never have made for him. "This is love: not that we loved (or chose) God, but that he loved (and chose) us." 1 Jn 4:10. When we choose God, it costs us nothing compared to the cost of his choosing us. His choice of us signed his Son's death warrant. But when a person does WILL to come, it is because he or she has been chosen and converted by God's grace ALONE. So when a person does come it is, as far as that person is concerned, a free choice, because no one externally coerced the choice. God changes our natural, self-oriented disposition and frees us for the first time from bondage to our sinful will, and then we make the decision that is in harmony with our new, regenerated nature. Yet it is not by a raw power forcing us against our will. Instead, the Holy Spirit persuades the enemy of God to become his friend by awakening him to his misery apart from God through the law, and overwhelming him with a sense of absolute freeness of God's gracious provison in the gospel. As the Westminster Confession of Faith states, "...yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace." Paul announced that salvation is "not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy" (Rom 9:16 NKJV) Paul does not mean that we do not will or that we do not run, but he says that salvation ultimately depends upon the will, decision running and working of GOD! Precisely because God has determined what will be, we have a salvation based on God and not on fatalism. Throughout Ephesians 1, prepositional phrases such as "in Christ," "in him," "in the One he loves," occur frequently. God did not just choose us; he chose us IN CHRIST. Christ, then, is the CENTER of our election. That means we do not discover our election by looking anywhere but to Christ. If Satan fails to get us to work on our behaviour, as works, he will seek to get us to work on our faith or our prayer life, or how much we read the Bible, or....the big one.....whether we FEEL saved or not; close to Jesus or not. This takes our focus off Christ the VINE, and places it right back on ourselves, "the branch" to see if any budding fruit is visible yet. He never asked us to keep checking on our faith or our spiritual feelings, whether we receive (feel) a blessing at Communion or during prayer or not; He never asked us to be sure and FEEL like we are a true Christian. He simply said, "Abide in ME." Focus on ME. I am your SOURCE and your SUPPLY for everything in this plan of saving you. Let go of the reins. Keep reminding yourself how wonderful it is to BE SAVED, eternally, totally, SAVED this very NOW moment! When doubts come, when you feel dry as crackers in your spiritual life, tell yourself, "It's OK. My life is HID in Christ with God. I am saved. It's not based upon my faith or my belief, but all upon Christ and His completed and continuing saving act and life and covering of the Eternal's Righteousness. My doubts or feelings have nothing to do with Christ. That's all my natural nature as an ungodly sinner and Satan's smoke and mirrors. None of that is real. Col 2:17. God's election of sinners is based on His mercy. At the Cross, God reconciled his mercy and his justice. Whenever any discouragement, any dry times, any feelingless prayers and dull Bible reading occur; whenever you are tempted to envy what appears and sounds like real piousness and real powerful faith in others; THAT is the perfect time to check which direction you're looking: down to the tip of your branch, at the branches of others, or to the VINE to which you KNOW by faith, you are connected - grafted in. Now, go sing and dance and play. You are safe under the shadow of the Almighty. Ps. 91. Jess | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 412 Registered: 4-2000  |
Stan, Thanks for the link to Charles Spurgeon's exposition. It is a Christian classic--a must-read! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 422 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Dennis. There are some classic quotes such as "And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer?... I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else." One more quote "I do not know how some people, who believe that a Christian can fall from grace, manage to be happy." Charles Haddon Spurgeon Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2131 Registered: 12-2003 |
I also enjoyed the Spurgeon, Stan. I agree that it is a Christian classicóa must-read. Thanks for posting the link. I was so gratified to see that he also aknowledged the Biblical references to human choice. He said that God's sovereignty was certainly true, and that man's responsibility is also true. He said the two appear to be parallel, and that as far as a human can see, the two never converge. But they do converge, he said, near the throne of God. I love the way he put that! I am so convinced that God's absolute sovereignty is at the heart of the gospel. And our choices do have eternal significance! Our salvation, though, is ENTIRELY the work of God, even the softening of our hearts to respond to the gospel is a work of God, not of our own decisions. And guess what? (I just can't help myself--I always have to compare the dates of giants of the faith with my own heritage...) Spurgeon was born in 1834. Granted, he lived and preached in England, but I'm certain his reputation was known in America. He was a contemporary of of EGW. What a DIFFERENCE! God is so merciful and faithful. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 28 Registered: 3-2005 |
Raven: This subject has dominated my thoughts for close to 2 years in respect to my theological study. It is one of those things that eludes our human understanding. What I do know is that God is sovereign AND that we are responsible for our choices. These are some of the things I have come to know. They're not Spurgeon that's for sure! but thought I'd share in some feeble attempt to be helpful..  1.God is sovereign 2.We come to God through God's grace 3.We don't know whether God elects some or all. In my limited understanding, the Bible seems to teach both. I haven't been able to reconcile that. 4. Effectively, it doesn't really matter whether He has elected some or all, our job is to share the Gospel. It is His job to convict. 5. MOST IMPORTANTLY: He is trustworthy so even those things our human minds can't grasp, doesn't make Him any less GOD or any less Truth. I am praying for you. Patria | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 253 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks to each of you for your helpful insights. It's been a bad week and so my perceptions were a little out of whack. This morning I was realizing that if it were all about how I was raised (instead of being drawn by the Holy Spirit) I would be rejecting God because that's exactly what I did several years ago when I thought God = SDA religion. If I've been brought this far, it's only because of the grace of God drawing me. That Spurgeon link was awesome. Too bad it's so difficult to find a church that regularly preaches sermons like his. That's part of what had me down. This past Sunday we heard a sermon at the church we've been regularly going to since January (thankfully it was a guest speaker) which was basically a sermon talking down to us and telling us how we need to clean up our act and get with the program of being a good Christian--and why aren't more people tithing... Those type of sermons really hit a raw nerve with me, and they should be outlawed. In addition, we still can't get our kids to even try Sunday School, and it's so hard to get to know anyone at church. We've had a few outings with our "small group" but it's strictly social not spiritual and we generally don't see any of them at church, so we're still worshipping with strangers. Sorry for my ramblings--I do appreciate the thoughts each of you put together. Actually, I did have an extra nice day yesterday when our family decided to forget about responsibilities for the day and went to Kings Island Amusement Park. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2005 |
Raven: Oh my! I am praying for you. I haven't found a church that I feel the Gospel is being preached from the fountain of Grace. There seems to be snippets of legalism as well...and I know what you mean about a raw nerve. My raw nerves are always at attention and ready for battle! I am so glad you had a good day yesterday. I went to King's Island when I was about 7 years old. Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2134 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven and Patria, I will pray that you will both find true Christian fellowship. I really feel for you both. I totally agree about the frequency of legalistic overtones inside Christianity. Like Richard used to say when we first started attending our church (which is remarkabley grounded in the New Covenant--something I do not take for granted and for which I thank God)--"These people don't have a CLUE what they really have by being Christians! They seem so unmoved by having this freedom in Christ!" Prayerfully, Colleen | ||
| Melinda Registered user Username: Melinda Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2005 |
Raven, Growing up SDA, the one thing I did not learn is my identity in Christ. I remember hearing the phrase "Children of God", etc., but it wasn't ingrained in me. When I first came out of the SDA church, one of the first things God taught me was my identity and that I am indeed a child of God. As many of you know, last summer we adopted 3 children from Ukraine. The experience really helped me understand more about my identity in Christ. There are many similiarities in what we did and what Christ did for us. First, we traveled to Ukraine. (God sent His Son to earth, John 3:16) We went to the Adoption Center in Kiev where they keep hundreds of binders full of pictures of orphans. We picked out 3 children. (God chose me as His own. John 15:16) We spent thousands of dollars to adopt the kids. (God paid with his life! I was bought with a price!) We went to court and we were declared a family. Ukraine gave us new birth certificates with us listed as the parents. (I am born of God. I am God's child! John 1:12 He adopted me! Eph 1:5) In Ukraine, the adoption is final. The birth parents can't contest. (1 John 5:19) I remember one time shortly after we arrived back home with the kids. The 9yr boy had an extreme meltdown. He was jumping on the car, throwing rocks and the class front door, flipping off ever car that went by, flipping me off, spitting at me, etc. I remember calling my husband and telling him I was ready to send this child back to Ukraine! I had been praying so hard for God to put love in my heart, and it didn't feel like He was listening. But God is not like that. He IS love, and He loves me. He does not want to send me back. I am HIS child. And I know I ALWAYS will be. My 3 Ukrainian American kids did not ask to be adopted. They were minding their own business in an orphanage in Ukraine. But God sent us over there to get them. They didn't try to impress us or do wonderful things for us to adopt them. And there's nothing I did that impressed God to adopt me. He DID it because He wanted to. It was a gift that I didn't deserve. Why did He choose me? I'm glad He did! Isn't God great! Melinda | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 175 Registered: 1-2003  |
Melinda, I identify with what you shared. In our case it was not the Ukraine we went to but South-Central LA. (those in S CA know what that is like) Annie is slowly realizing that our adoptive relationship is as strong as any by natural birth. She can do nothing to break that relationship. (She seems to push the limits at times but she is still loved no matter what.) Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2136 Registered: 12-2003 |
What a great analogy, Melinda and Richard. Melinda, I remember that you had some serious spiritual questions about your kids a few months ago. Have you arrived at any resolution or insight? With prayers for you and your family, Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 39 Registered: 3-2005 |
Melinda: That was beautiful. Thank you for your story. And what a blessing for those children even if they don't understand it completely. Another analogy I suppose! Patria | ||
| Melinda Registered user Username: Melinda Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hi Colleen, My kids are doing pretty well right now. In fact, we just went camping this weekend and my husband and I commented how we were "almost" a normal family. It felt really good to see the progress that we have made. Sunday morning I just stayed in the sleeping bag thanking God for all that He has done for us. We would have never been able to go camping even a few months ago. But God is good and it's only by His Spirit that we have made it this far. It certainly hasn't been by my might or my power. The other day I came across a Bible verse that basically said to not despise small beginnings because God takes delight in them. To me this said that God is taking delight in our family and the progress that has been made. That was a great encouragement to me. Thanks for asking. Melinda | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2153 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melinda, what wonderful news! Praise God for making you a family. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 452 Registered: 3-2005 |
For anyone who might be interested in exploring Reformed theology or Calvinism further, there is a well written article written by John Piper, author of the Christian classic "Desiring God" at www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/tulip.html Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 530 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Stan, Thanks for the link. I've bookmarked it because it is going to take a while to read because of my schedule, so I didn't want to lose sight of it. |
