| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2105
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 11:02 am: |     |
Yes, Melissa--I completely agree with you!
Colleen |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 150
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 9:59 pm: | |
I read a book once called "Eternity in their Hearts" that was filled with stories like that Melissa. It was about 10 years ago, so I really don't remember any specific stories, but apparently it happens more than we know. Has anyone else read this book? It's based on a verse in Romans? containing the same phrase.
Readily,
Hannah |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 838
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 10:40 pm: | |
I'm not familiar with the book you mention, but I believe this is the text it must take its title from:
quote:Ecclesiastes 3:11 (NIV)
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Chris
|
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 12:08 pm: | |
Richard,
In response to this you posted June 8:
Jess, I'm sure this text is familiar to you and I'm interested in your comments. Romans 2:14-16 - -
I will respond ASAP in a personal e-mail. I'm in the midst of refurbishing our home, so I have been "hit-and-miss" on looking at the forum posts. I'll try to get a reply to you today if at all possible.
As for the picture and the beard. I have no technology with which to post a photo. Even if I did, I would not know how to get it on this forum. Perhaps someday. I don't even own a digital camera. You can call me slow, or not possessing countless "denero" - both probably apply. ;c)
Jess |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 12:24 pm: | |
Stan,
A few texts my wife and I read just this morning throw some interesting light upon this subject. If I may share a few for your consideration:
Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." If I could use italics or bold font or underline, I would underline "who were appointed for eternal life believed."
I think the next one is very intersting to me:
Acts 16:14 "One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was [a worshiper of God].
The Lord [open4ed her heart to RESPOND to Paul's message.]" (Brackets and emphasis mine).
Although there are many texts, let me just add one more: Rom 11:5-7, 29
"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works....What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but [the elect did.] [The others were hardened.] ... For God's gifts [and His call are irrevocable."]
(again - emphasis/brackets mine)
The Bible clearly teaches a predestination and an election - but these do not include everyone.
We can scratch our heads and ponder, "But what if God did this." or "But would God do this?"
and never truly "know." God and His actions still remain mysterious, His thoughts unknown to us - but I am in harmony with the thoughts expressed (above), that God will not cheat anyone out of salvation and eternal life. He alone reads the hearts. He knows who, like the thief on the cross, that - in my mind anyway - based upon what took place in that conversation - that should that thief have been cut loose, I feel he would have become a follower of Jesus for the rest of his life. Jesus knew his heart and intent and motives to be pure and real. So will God have to judge the untold millions who never had a Bible study or attended a Billy Graham gospel series; as to how honest they are in living up to the light they have. And He surely can and does give personal revelations. I can personally testify to this myself. My belief is that in the end, we and all the redeemed will know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God did everything He could to save those whom He foresaw and knew would or will accept His invitation; however that invitation and drawing (by His Spirit) is manifested.
But, again, I'm left with pondering this subject and the enormity of all it encompasses. And I conclude again, as always, Thank God for Grace!
God's Grace!
Jess
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2108
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 12:53 pm: | |
Yes, Hannah, I have read Eternity In Their Hearts. It's by Don Richardson who is "recognized for his anthropological and linguistic work among the Sawi people of Irian Jaya." This book along with two others he wrote, "Peace Child" and "Lords of the Earth" are published by Regal, a division of Gospel Light.
We heard Don speak a few years ago. In fact, he was the featured guest at our church for missions weekend one year. He has spent years living in Irian Jaya, and he developed notation and translated the Bible into the native language there.
I highly recommend "Eternity in their Hearts". It is an amazing look at cultural traditions and legends and even religious rites among isolated native peoples in widely diverse parts of the globe. Because of these various traditions or legends, these people were ready to hear the gospel when missionaries finally found them.
For example, here is the teaser paragraph on the back cover: "The year is 1795, and deep in the jungles of Burma hundreds of native tribesment rush out to a clearing to greet a white-skinned stranger. Could he be the one to bering the book their forefathers lost so many centuries agoóthe book that tells the secrets of Y'Wa, the Supreme God? Yes! And later missionaries were astounded at the way in which God had prepared these people for one of the greatest mass conversions in history!"
Don's books are amazing, and they really leave one breathless at the way God in His sovereignty has prepared all people for the gospel. Romans 1:18-20 is correct--these revelations and traditions are not accidents!
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 398
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 1:03 pm: | |
Jess,
Thanks for that great summary of texts which do express that we serve a loving and gracious God. That Acts 13:48 has always been a favorite of mine. I am so thankful that God leaves nothing to chance with regard to our salvation. I would be so lost if my salvation was up to me, and that is basically what many of us were taught in our extreme Arminian upbringing in Adventism.
Praising the Lord and thanking him for His Grace,
Stan
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Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 3:21 pm: | |
Stan,
Double ditto and Amen!
And back to Lydia. I have fun picturing her as a modern day Adventist, loving God sincerely, living up to the light (if we dare call all those 27 fundy beliefs "light" ) but never-the-less, living up to all she knew and believed and loved God. And here she walks down by the river to maybe eat her lunch with a group of other lady workers and sitting on a big jutting root out of this tree is a guy named Paul talking, and as she listenens to Paul explain the "authentic" Gospel that adds nothing to God's Grace or sola Scriptura or sola faith but ONLY God's Grace - God touches her heart.
Notice, this text does not say she was convinced of the proof-texting or amount of theological exegesis and correct hermaneutics, and was intellectually convinced this guy, Paul was teaching "truth" ..... No, it says "the Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message." It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. She may have known a lot about God. Enough anyway for us to know she worshipped God. But although she was one of God's elect, she needed to respond to the call and message of God's Grace in Christ.
I just love this story of God opening a heart to respond. God's gift has been given, freely offered, but it can't become ours until we reach out and (respond) and take it and say thank you.
Paul didn't send anyone to sit beside Lydia and pressure her to "come forward" - - I've seen that take place for 55 minutes while the organ played continually....with different members of the team, slipping in the pew behind the person or sitting beside them and arguing and pleading and pressuring them to come forward.
No the Lord must open our hearts to respond to His love and Grace. Oh that more might respond to the Master's mysterious "heart-opener" we would have more genuine conversions.
JWD |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 403
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 7:50 pm: | |
Jess,
Your post is right on--Megadittos as Rush fans would say. This business of the long altar calls where they wouldn't stop until everyone comes forward is just nuts! It resulted in people falsely coming just so the service would come to an end. This idea originated largely from the revivals of Charles Finney, an evangelist who was Pelagian after the order of EGW. He said salvation was an act of the will, and he used to advocate getting the right mood with the music and lights. He was a strong believer in psychological manipulation to get large numbers of people to come forward. Finney, unfortunately had a huge impact on American fundamentalism, and that is why there are so many people deluded in thinking that because they came forward at one of these meetings, then therefore they are saved, even if their lives show no evidence of repentance.
Stan |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 305
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 8:06 pm: | |
Stan, my pastor at Crossroads frequently gives invitations at the end of his sermons, but they are very short and very low-key. The pastor states the importance of responding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but never tries to persuade people to come. We usually sing just one stanza of a short invitational song. If no one comes, he says they can come to the counseling room after the service if they prefer. Quite often, people come to the counseling room afterwards for prayer, and to give themselves to Christ.
Bob |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 405
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 10:20 pm: | |
Bob,
I think that is appropriate what you are talking about. An opportunity should be given in a low key way to respond to the Holy Spirit's prompting after the Word of God is preached.
Stan |
Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 302
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 11:15 am: | |
Bush believes this:
"...President Bush has declared that he believes in a god who speaks to different religions. While many Evangelicals believe the president has accepted Christ as his Savior, some have been somewhat disturbed by such things as the White House celebration each year of Ramadan. The president may have added to those Evangelicals' concerns yesterday (June 13) when he told a group of international exchange students that he believes in a god who is not confined to one religion. "I believe there's an almighty god who speaks to different faiths -- and I believe freedom is a gift from that almighty," the president said. At the White House ceremony........."
Read more here: http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/6/142005h.asp
------------------------------------------------
Regarding the alter call; I had brought this issue up on this forum over a year ago and also mentioned Finney as the man who started this practice. It's somewhere in the archives or on one of these topics already listed--I don't remember the name of the thread but my question was where in the Bible do we find these alter calls or something to that effect. So I went on a search to find the origination of this practice. Personally, I disagree with it, but that's me.
In Christ Jesus.
Denise
|
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 417
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 3:26 pm: | |
Denise,
Sounds like President Bush has become a Universalist--at least when addressing a diverse, international audience.
Dennis Fischer |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 432
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 9:11 pm: | |
President Bush is not speaking as a theologian, and public diplomacy mandates a lot of what he says. But, what about a famous evangelist, who the world perceives is speaking for God? Did anyone catch the Larry King interview with Billy Graham interview on Thurs. night June 16 2005? When I get time, I would like to post the link to the CNN transcript. King asked Graham twice about what he thought of Mormons, and Graham said he had no problems with Mormons. In fact, he even said that he knew other evangelicals had problems with Mormons, but he did not. He also says that he is only called to preach the love of God, and not the wrath of God.
There were other troubling statements, and it hurts deeply to see this great man of God now presenting a message on national TV that does not have that clear trumpet sound, and clarion call of the gospel. The most serious implication of what he said is this: What if you were a Mormon watching this interview, and you heard Billy Graham saying that you were just alright? This man's influence is so big, that this really troubles me. I will say again, that I know that God has used this man in a mighty way, especially in his younger years. I think I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt, that as he has aged, perhaps the clarity he once had is gone. In contrast, his son Franklin always gives that clear and certain sound of the gospel. I wish their entire family well. Any thoughts?
Stan |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 767
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 10:30 pm: | |
Stan, I just took a look at the transcript (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/16/lkl.01.html) and don't see him teaching universalism, exactly. He didn't say that Mormonism will lead you to heaven, or anything like that.
I will copy and paste an excerpt here for everyone to see:
quote:KING: Are you forgiving of the infirmities of other people?
GRAHAM: Absolutely. I am. I mean, I...
KING: Isn't that hard?
GRAHAM: ... try to forgive. I never hold a grudge. In fact, many people say that I never get angry. I don't think I get angry. But maybe I do sometimes, but I keep it. I don't explode to anybody.
KING: Do you feel the same about other faiths?
GRAHAM: Absolutely.
KING: Do you feel the same about Judaism, Mormonism?
GRAHAM: Absolutely.
KING: Buddhism?
GRAHAM: I love them all, and welcome them all, and love to be with them, and friends with all of them. For example, I just talked to a man in New York City, he was a Mormon.
KING: My father-in-law.
GRAHAM: Your father-in-law. And I've loved the Mormons for years, and yet there is a big divide between the Mormons and some of the other groups. But I have great friends among the Mormons. And the same among the Catholics. Of course, I loved Pope John Paul II and watched the whole process of his suffering, his dying and the tremendous -- my daughter went to represent me ...
KING: I know. You were on with us the night he died.
GRAHAM: That's right. Thank you.
KING: But what about those faiths -- the Mormons and the others that you mentioned -- believe in Christ. They believe they will meet Christ. What about those like the Jews, the Muslims, who don't believe they ...
GRAHAM: That's in God's hands. I can't be the judge.
KING: You don't judge them?
GRAHAM: No.
KING: How do you feel...
(CROSSTALK)
GRAHAM: ... going to hell and all that.
KING: How do you feel when you see a lot of these strong Christian leaders go on television and say, you are condemned, you will live in hell if you do not accept Jesus Christ, and they are forceful and judgmental?
GRAHAM: Well, they have a right to say that, and they are true to a certain extent, but I don't -- that's not my calling. My calling is to preach the love of God and the forgiveness of God and the fact that he does forgive us. That's what the cross is all about, what the resurrection is all about, that's the gospel. And you can get off on all kinds of different side trends, and in my earlier ministry, I did the same, but as I got older, I guess I became more mellow and more forgiving and more loving. And the Jerry Falwells and people like that, I love them, I thank God for their ministry, he has a great university and two or three of my grandchildren have gone there, they have had a tremendous change in their lives for being there, and some of the other people are the same way, but at the other end of the extreme.
Ron (INAUDIBLE) here in New York years ago, preached against me, or spoke against me. I loved him with all my heard. I went to see him, and all these people.
KING: We'll be back with the extraordinary Reverend Billy Graham right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GRAHAM: But Jesus made this astounding claim. Jesus said: I am the truth. Jesus said, I am the truth! I am the embodiment of all truth. And if you're going to get to heaven, you've got to believe that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on June 18, 2005) |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 435
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 3:16 pm: | |
Jeremy, Thanks for posting that. Sometimes the transcript does not give the tone of voice and the exact way it was said. But if I were a Mormon or a Catholic, I think it would be fair to say that I would not be threatened or challenged by the above exchange. I admit it is difficult to interpret exactly what he meant, but he did seem to equate Catholics with Mormons. I believe the Roman church to be much closer to Biblical Christianity than Mormonism.
But there is a trend in te evangelical world to start accepting Mormons as Christians. For example, Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Seminary, was quoted recently after he read a book by a Mormon apologist, said that "he sensed that this man knew the Jesus of the Bible". Go figure that out. He also said publically that Christian apologists have misrepresented the teachings of Mormonism. Walter Martin must be rolling in his grave over that statement! There just seems to be a spirit of compromise that is creeping in on different fronts. Many of the most popular ministries today have been built on never talking about the wrath of God. Robert Shuller openly said on one interview, that we should never mention the wrath of God.
Stan |
Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 303
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:45 pm: | |
Dennis,
Yes, it appears that Bush is becoming or at the very least, showing the entire world (including all Christians) that ALL faiths are acceptable to God Almighty of the Bible.
According to the Bible, this is a lie.
The Holy Scriptures tell us there is "....One Lord, one faith and one baptism..." Eph. 4:5
Of Course there are many other Scriptures as you know Dennis. So it is sad to see the leader of this country making a mockery of the Word of God.
In Christ Jesus of Nazareth.
Denise |
Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 304
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:04 am: | |
Stan,
Bush does not need to be a theologian. He claims he is a Christian, period. A Christian leader who represents the United States of America.
God does not play favorites. Bush is not under authority from God to claim Christianity yet teach things to the entire world that God Almighty forbids.
Manmade dictate cannot and must not rule the President anymore than it should rule any one of us. George W. Bush is not special.
With his "Faith Based" this and "Faith Based" that, I'm wondering (as are many other Christians and non Christians alike) exactly what "faith" he is espousing. He has made sure all the nations and this nation believes he is a Christian. He has used his "Christianity" as his platform in many things he does and says. Every speech ends with "God Bless America."
What did the Apostle Paul say about those who claim a different Gospel? A different faith?
Using your premise that Bush is not a theologian:
Would it be okay then, say...if I began telling everyone who believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ that "ALL faiths are acceptable to God?" And then continued for the next several years telling everyone who became new converts this same thing. Is that okay? It would keep the peace and diplomacy. Especially around here where I'm told NOT to speak the truth! (around my apartment building, neighborhood, inhome services and within my own family on the telephone). Not counting the internet. With the internet people can say the same thing Bush did to any country they want--then what? It would be a terrible thing to follow this leader, Bush, as some kind of role model representing Christianity!
Afterall, I'm not a theologian either. Infact, I'm not even a leader of an entire nation!
Bush knows he has the entire world listening to him. Why not, as a 'Christian,' take the opportunity to begin to act like one and speak like one. Why? That's my question and I'm fairly sure as to the answer as well. It's in another area on this forum.
We are told to pray for our leaders. And so, I pray that the LORD'S WILL be done. For I fear this President has thus far let me down. As did Clinton and a few before him so this isn't a party issue thing.
Here's another speech for you to read and think upon:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/new_details.asp?ID=13244
And here is the United States Governments own website with his speech:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/12/20021205-5.html
Please think upon these statements as there are many of them from this President.
And while you are at it, compare George W. Bush with King Hezekiah in 2 Kings-Chapters 18, 19 and 20. Then tell me what a leader of a country ought to do. And what he ought NOT to do. This pertains to any of our leaders.
Peace to you and may God Bless you Stan as I know you are having a hard time with this current administration as of late. We all are Stan, so don't feel alone. More than half the nation feels like you and myself and it's not easy.
Billy Graham also has me baffled. And I gave up on Scheuller long ago. You are right, there is a terrible trend of "compromise" spreading across this land. Those are a few of many more who are currently teaching false doctrine and compromising the Faith once delivered.
We were warned of the great apostacy and that is what I believe we are seeing Stan.
Ever your sister in the Lord Jesus Christ. May God bless you and your household.
Denise
|
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 925
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 2:47 pm: | |
I only caught pieces of the king interview, and wished I could have seen the whole thing. I often wonder if I "extend grace" too much because I tend to try to recognize the context of the conversation...and because I hope that the image I have in my head of a great Godly leader isn't inaccurate. If someone asked me, I would say I didn't have a problem with mormons, catholics or jews...I have issues with their theology, but not the people. It seems Graham's comments may be related to the people, not to the religious systems themselves. He does talk about the gospel being the cross and the resurrection...God's love and forgiveness. It's not as detailed and word-perfect as I would like the gospel described, but on a talk show where the host interrupts a lot and long explanations are not tolerated, maybe it's the best he could do. I didn't see it, I wish I did, but I've heard Graham enough through the years, I can't imagine he has gotten confused about the gospel. I remember people asking him about homosexuality in years past, and he said something related to it's not the unpardonable sin, and the Bible calls it sin, so he has to stand by what the Bible says... I thought his comeback to that question, which was obviously meant to incite a highly negative response, was true to the word without being pulled into the trap that others seemed to fall into. So, I guess I would hate to label Graham as a universalist because he doesn't have issue with mormons, catholics, muslims and jews. I believe Jesus loves them all, just as Graham said he did. That's a long way from the assumption he believes they'll all be in heaven by their own religious requirements. They will know we're his disciples by our love...we pray for those who persecute us and use us... Even my own pastor has mentioned that there are many pagans who do "good" things....look at the moneys raised for the tsunami efforts, or some of the many other fundraising causes that come around....they're good things in human suffering terms... but doing good works isn't what makes us Christians. It doesn't take us to heaven. On this forum, we don't judge SDAs on whether they'll be in heaven because only God knows their hearts... I don't think it's wrong to extend that grace to other groups. I have a friend who was raised mormon for years...and he and his wife were sitting in the mormon church one day after the preacher had said something and each said "what are we doing here?" They knew the gospel from their Bible study, and they were saved, but at the same moment, God called them out of that religious structure. I've similar stories from people who were catholic and moved into a protestant church. We don't know what method God will use to call people to himself, but if people have a built in "hate" of other groups, or the division as Graham talks about, how easy is it for them to "join" us as siblings in Christ? I personally liked the part of the transcript Jeremy posted because it points out one of the reasons Graham is respected...his gentle answers.... There are some popular evangelists who have created so much friction with the outside world, I don't blame them for not wanting to be one of "us".
I have the same thoughts regarding Bush, who is in a position that has to deal with leaders across the world. He can hardly put himself in a position to be distrusted by them. How is he going to get any respect in a world that is not dominated by Christian leaders if he announces he thinks they're all going to hell? Think about it, the muslim world already hates us because we're "infidels". To me, scripture tells us in Romans that God puts leaders in positions of authority. For good or bad, they must serve his purpose to some end. Even Clinton, who I did not care for as a president or leader of this country, yet I respected that God gave him his position for whatever reason.
As I said at the beginning, I may have a skewed perspective because of my general respect for these two particularly. I only have God-like faith in Christ, not any human ...and rely on him to "help my unbelief" when needed. I hope that makes sense. I just sure hope someone wouldn't judge my eternal position because of a single conversation, taken out of context. |
Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 306
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 5:45 am: | |
Hi Melissa,
My prayer is that Bush would stop "celebrating" these pagan celebrations. This clearly gives a wrong message to new converts and our children. It also affects or distorts the beliefs of Christianity as a whole when the world sees our leader celebrating these pagan celebrations.
If I had a Bible study for a few months with some new folks just coming to the faith and then proceeded to take them to a witches celebration every year, I do believe that these new folks would feel free to celebrate with witches.
Even when it comes to food. Paul tells us not to so much as eat food offered to idols. Not because this food would hurt us who stands firm in the faith but because it "emboldens" those that see us do such a thing and they get the impression that it's okay to offer food up to idols. Scripture is very clear on this issue.
President Bush, since he has made so much out of his Christianity worldwide, now needs to set a good example of what Christianity is about. Not by just setting a good example for the other nations but for our own nation as well.
He is giving others the wrong impression of what we, as Christians, believe and live by. This is what I'm praying he'll stop doing. It's misleading to other nations and to our own nation.
We need to keep in mind that he is listened to and watched intently by all of the other nations in the world. What are they seeing? Do you believe a Moslem leader would celebrate Easter every year at the White House?
So, no, I do not believe that Bush should say "Hey, doncha know this is pagan and God will condemn you for it?!!" But "celebrating" with them and calling their Koran a "Holy Book?" That's compromising if I ever saw or heard.
Paul even rebuked Peter when Peter quickly jumped up from the "gentile" table when the Jews walked in. Peter was setting a very bad example for those new gentile believers and was called on the carpet for that hypocrisy--openly too.
Now Billy Graham has me baffled as I posted above. I do see a shift in him and a few others in how they are now presenting Christianity. I'll keep watching them as I've watched Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson and others. We have to otherwise how could we warn others if any one of these people were teaching false or even cultic doctrine? Or compromising true Christianity?
It is not any different than warning others of Ellen White's teachings and that of the SDA Church. People need to be steered in the right direction and also need encouragement, as many of us do when we finally leave the cult, or the cultic Church we were attending.
Whether Priest, Pastor, President, Pew warmer/teacher or the just coming to Christ Jesus folk, we need to correct the misconceptions of the Christian teaching taught by many or exhibited by many.
There are so many people who absolutely do not want to be a Christian because of the hypocrisy they've seen in lots of Christians or because of the way the Christians they've encountered live their lives or many other reasons. I know because there was a time in my life that I said to myself "If that's what Christianity is about....no thanks."
And not that I'm miss perfect over here! I fall everyday and have to repent, dust myself off and press on. But I do try to represent my Father in Heaven in the best of light (which isn't always easy and I fall way short in that area as well). But each time, I'm learning more and more about what to watch for in myself so that I do not misrepresent Christianity and so I do not give my Father in Heaven a bad name.
Hopefully that helps explain my position and my thoughts more clearly.
May God Bless you Melissa.
Denise
|
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 926
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:32 am: | |
But the Koran is a holy book TO THEM...and being respectful of a different religion and even acknowledging their holy days isn't negating Christianity in my opinion. I really don't have issue with you, Denise. I'm just processing through how to really view things that look "out of step" with Christian "norms". Jimmy Carter always threw me, that he could be democrat and yet claim to be a baptist, knowing that democrats support abortion, etc. But I do not live the Christian life perfectly, and I'm just lurking in the shadows. No one ever sets me up on a pedestal for review. I just wouldn't want my every word put under the microscope because sometimes I don't say things well, sometimes I have a bad day, and sometimes I'm just plain wrong. But I wouldn't want my integrity or my sincere desire to be dismissed because I'm still growing. Our pastor spoke on Ephesians 6:1-4 this weekend, as we've been going through the whole book this year. He spent almost 5 full minutes saying that he has not been perfect at implementing Bible principles, that he tried, but certainly failed as he was still human, his job was, however, to teach what scripture teaches, not talk about what he was successful at, and asking people to give his kids grace when they are human ... and I felt sorry for his kids at that moment that their lives (and human strengths/weaknesses) get judged at a different level because they're the pastor's kids. I hope I am not judged by my mistakes the rest of my life. We on this forum come from different backgrounds, have different passions and different sins in our lives, but we are all still sinners saved by grace. I've thought about this issue with EGW, too. And there are some I think you can clearly say are outside the gospel, like Binny Hinn, etc. But a preacher/theologian says things differently than a president, who has to remain unbiased. I think of how offensive some of the arabs/muslims are when they are so dogmatic about their religion...even in the tsunami, some on tv said "give us your help, but keep your religion". They basically said "we still hate you, but give us what you will". I'm left somewhat speechless at how ungrateful some of them are at the literally millions of dollars our country gives them, yet we are called to be salt and light, witnesses. I often find myself wishing we'd leave those countries and not look back because of the attitudes of some of their leaders. I'm sure there are some who are appreciative of the help, but they're the quiet ones. I wouldn't want to be in Bush's place ... to try to please so many with such conflicting expectations.
I struggle sometimes as you do, Denise. I wasn't directing my comments at you or anyone, just tossing them in with the mix. Hope I didn't sound offensive to you as that was not my intent. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 439
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 1:18 pm: | |
Melissa,
Excellent points regarding President Bush, and what he has to do as president. I agree mostly with you on Billy Graham. I hope I made it clear that I believe Billy Graham is a great man of God. I do not agree with Robert Morey's analysis which started this thread. The evidence does not suggest he is a universalist, and I don't want to compare him with the Dan Smith type universalist which we talk about so often. The one major objective concern that has been proven, is Billy Graham's assessment of Roman Catholicism. After crusades are over and Catholics have come to the Lord, the counselors are instructed to send them back to their priests, and no mention is ever made that Roman Catholicism is an apostate church. You have to at least wonder, what these people have been saved from. Also, I wonder about why it seems that in his later years he has at least de-emphasized the reality of hell, and the wrath of God, as you have to tell people what they are being saved from also. But may God bless him and his entire family. His son Franklin is terrific whenever he is interviewed on TV.
I wonder if anyone who posts on this board would disagree with you about Benny Hinn being "clearly outside the gospel. There is no question in my mind, but that Benny Hinn is a false prophet.
Stan |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 419
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 5:59 pm: | |
Melissa,
A few years ago, I heard Billy Graham tell Larry King on TV that he has always been a Democrat. Larry King told him that he was surprised. I do not have any problem with Billy Graham being a lifelong Democrat. My wife and I are registered Republicans; however, we have often voted for Democratic candidates as well. We try to select the best from both major parties.
Admittedly, we have goofed repeatedly in our voting (i.e., voting twice for Nixon and twice for Clinton). Ellen White said that we are guilty of their sins, while in office, if we voted for them (smile). She never endorsed our form of government and our civic responsibility to vote. She advocated voting ONLY on temperance and Sunday law issues.
Dennis Fischer |
Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 308
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 1:47 am: | |
Hi Melissa,
Not to worry, no offense was taken here.
My problem with Bush is that he is not just speaking words stating what they believe. He is CELEBRATING "their" pagan holiday. This is clearly wrong and very disrespectful to Christians. Just as it would be clearly wrong for any of us to celebrate at a witches coven or a satanic ritual.
It is one thing to allow people to have their own faith and be respectful to them. It is quite another to participate in their "pagan" system.
We cannot serve both God and Baal. Not even for peace keeping purposes.
Bush can respect them and their version of faith without participating each and every year in their worship of a different faith. I do believe that Solomon celebrated pagan rituals with some of his women too and it's not a thing God smiles upon. It is un-necessary to participate. At the same time he can give a verbal respect to keep the peace. Pauper to President are under the same standard set by God Almighty.
By their "fruits" you shall know them.
This also is not an attack upon you and I hope you know that Melissa.
May God Bless you and yours.
Denise |
Marcell
Registered user
Username: Marcell
Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 9:37 am: | |
The Kingdom of God is NOT some 'version' of the kingdom of the world. They are completely separate and very different. Whatever we are led to do about politics or whatever (and politics ALWAYS involves some sort of compromise) it should not be confused with what we are called to do as members of the Kingdom of God. This is not a 'Christian' nation - please. look around. does this look like Christianity to you? If we confuse politics or patriotism with being Christian, then no wonder other nations get confused. Our government exists to enforce laws (God's purpose for it) that keep us from killing each other, stealing people's stuff, etc. Laws (as us former legalists should know!) never change hearts. Only God's love shown to a dying world can do that - Jesus said that the world would know we are His by our love - so when we are bombing other nations in the name of politics or naitonal pride (which is our Governments's right, but not a believer's right) and then claim to be a Christian nation, it's like saying the Christians are bombing the Muslims. The kingdom of God will not grow by force!! It will grow by the opposite of force - by surrender and self sacrificial love and seeing others as those whom Jesus died for.
I have no expectations for any politician to 'live up to' their beliefs - I haven't seen it happen yet, not really.
Marcell |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 933
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 3:01 pm: | |
Dennis, that is fascinating about BG and the democratic party.... Most of my mother's family is democratic because they feel it is the party for the "working class" person. I also don't vote party line, because there are bigger issues to me than simply abortion and gay rights. I know our area has had a lot of press this past year because a number of the larger churches got together to encourage it's members to vote. Our pastor told us before he announced the voter registration booth in the lobby that a watch group advocate was in the service to make sure he didn't say anything that would jeopardize our 501c3 status. It's been an interesting year to be a Christian and see so many pastors I respect grilled on the local news for simply preaching the Bible, even in love, they call it hate.
Denise, I know you were not attacking me, I just wanted to make sure you weren't offended.
Stan, I am also saddened to hear of BGs apparent changes. I know he has always supported all local churches, even the catholic church. I always thought that was so local churches would not see his ministry as a threat. Only God knows his heart.
Through all these conversations. it has just made me think, and wonder if I "idolize" someone because of an image I create in my head of what they teach, much as we cheer for the sports figure that helps our team win. It is so hard to not 'make idols' out of people...much as the tumble of OJ simpson a few years back. Most of my ramblings are just a perspective, different or similar. God is working on me in this area lately, and these conversations have really been "iron sharpening iron"...both here and in regards to Rick Warren. I would hate to see this forum become a source of gossip or in anyway support the enemy's desire to tear down those in the faith God has chosen to be more "public" lights than others. Someone mentioned concern/quesions regarding another BS series in another thread, and I guess what I'm realizing is that while there is great benefit to using Bible studies as aids, and leading to accurately representing texts, or listening to great Bible study teacher on radio/tv, I can't rely on them to the point that I quit studying them myself. It's not been uncommon for me to think that because of someone's education or well respectedness that he/she has an insight to scripture I don't have. What I'm learning is that the spirit leads me to discern his word. And that doesn't mean the person teaching isn't Christian because I disagree...it just means that the Spirit has had a reason to teach me something that the other didn't yet need. Even my pastor has said he has changed his position on certain scriptures as he has grown through the years (a welcoming comment as I find myself questioning these things sometimes). Sometimes it's quite unsettling to "know different" than a well respected Bible teacher. But I'm trying to learn to discern, and apply grace, to all walking on this road of Christianity...while segregating light from dark, truth from error. I just feel a lot of responsibility that I may have been careless about in the past.
And I love what marcell said...."this is not a Christian nation". Isn't that the truth! Especially for anyone who know what it really means to be a Christian.
I'm just trying to check many of my own thoughts, in part, because of information brought up here which I hadn't been aware of and because of our dear friend, Richard, who continues in the SDA church ... and seems so contrary to what I have seen of adventists. So, when I think of Adventists, I try to think of Richard...so I'm not so harsh with my words when that anger Taybie mentioned arises. And some days it's worse than others. I guess God's just not finished with me yet.... as they say....
Thanks to all for letting me rant, and commenting accordingly. I really do learn alot from this forum, and much of it has nothing to do with Adventism. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 447
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 9:22 am: | |
Melissa,
I also heartily agree with you about being careful about broadbrushing leaders. I am also happy to have met fine Christians such as Richard (AKA Seeker777) within Adventism, and I also know a lot more Christians like Richard within Adventism. Like you, Melissa, it is hard for those of us who have been affected by Adventism in such negative ways not to be harsh at times with our rhetoric. I need to work on that a lot more. At the same time, i hope we can continue to have dialogue on some of these very important issues, without giving the impression we are attacking individuals, but we do have serious problems with those who deceptively preach false doctrine, and we can never shy away from testing any leader (no matter what the leader's famous name may be) by the objective inerrant standard of scripture.
Stan
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Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 935
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 11:14 am: | |
It is also hard to "interpret" tone in written text. Sometimes things come across harsher than possibly intended, especially since we're not face to face, and it's sometimes more blunt than it might be if we were speaking personally. I appreciate your comments, Stan. |
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