| Author | Message | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2005 |
Please forgive my ignorance! I started a new thread under a different topic. So I'm re-starting it under it's own topic. Hi there: I have a question. I was discussing some things about Adventism with a friend yesterday. She is a current SDA and until last night has not wanted to engage in any of the process we've been through in leaving SDAism. She had so many questions and praise God, He gave the answers. But there was one thing I couldn't answer as I've never heard of it. I wondered if any of you have heard of this. She said that she's been asked to be at two different annointings in the past 10 years or so. Two different pastors, two different places and both times she was told she had to be sure to "purify" herself by praying for forgiveness of her sins in order that the prayers over the sick person might not be hindered. Has anyone heard of this?? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 502 Registered: 7-2004 |
My dad was annointed when he was diagnosed with cancer, but I do not recall anyone daring to tell any of us to "purify" ourselves. However, having said that, most of the SDA ministers who were ministering to my father viewed all of his kids as being apostates at the time. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2098 Registered: 12-2003  |
Patriar, I've heard of it. My understanding of the matter is that it's an Adventist misinterpretation of James 5:16, the verse following the instructions for anointing. Verse 16 says, "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." First, the verse admonishes people to confess to each other--in other words, James is saying people need to make right the wrongs they have done to each other. This command is not given in connection with preparing for anointing--but it does go hand-in-hand with the command to pray for each other. Second, I believe Adventists see this passage as a way of promoting the idea of righteousness being the result of having all one's sins confessed and forgiven. The Biblical teaching of righteousness is that we are completely covered with Jesus' righteousness when we accept Him. Our subsequent sins and repentance do not remove and then restore Christ's righteousness in us. The belief that confession of each sin is necessary for righteousness comes straight out of EGWs teaching on the sanctuary service. She said that even one unconfessed sin--even a forgotten sin--will remain on the heavenly books and keep us out of heaven. Therefore, I infer that Adventists read this passage in James and interpret it in the light of SDA theology instead of according to its literal meaning. They say one must confess all sins and purify himself in order to be righteous so as to "qualify" as a "righteous" person whose prayer for another's healing will be heard. Praise God that our righteousness depends upon Jesus and our surrender to Him, not upon our remembering every sin we've committed and specifically confessing them! Colleen | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2005 |
There is no doubt in my mind that we frequently enter into prayer, even prayer for the sick, with far too little conscious preparation. In Mark 11:24,25 Jesus did add a qualifying factor to the prayer of faith. He said ...."if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, SO THAT your Father in heaven, MAY forgive YOU YOUR sins." (emphasis mine) I think it would be in harmony with Biblical principles for a pastor, asked to annoint for healng, to ask those friends and family members present to search their hearts prayerfully and honestly seek to clear the way for a united harmony of belief and receptivity for God's power to flow and work without human obstruction of any kind. I see a similar principle at work whenever a pastor prepares the Communion sacrament. He cannot read the minds and hearts of those attending. He can admonish all to seek their own hearts and decide themselves who may recognize themselves as unworthy of participating in the Lord's Supper that day; but beyond that, he dare not decide who falls into this category. Only God can read the human heart, and He is very good at it! Jess | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2005 |
AMEN and AMEN! What a distortion of the beauty of this passage. Thank God I had recently studied James and was able to point out to her the unBiblical nature of what she was asked to do. I believe it served as a springboard for other questions. I am pryaing that her mind will be opened and the veil removed. Thank you so much for the information! Patria | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 503 Registered: 7-2004 |
The admonition in I Cor. 11:27-32 is not whether or not we are unworthy to receive the cup and the bread, it is to avoid partaking of the Lord's Supper "unworthily." At one time, this was a part of a shared meal, and some were inclined to over-imbibe, or to eat too much, this is partaking "unworthily." None of of us is worthy in and of ourselves. We come to the Lord's table needing healing from sin and illness, and needing strength. The Lord invites us to remember him by partaking of his body and blood as symbolized by the bread and the wine, and whether or not we are worthy is never in question. I believe that any time we come before the Throne of Grace in petition on behalf of another it would be good to search ourselves and look to see if there is anything getting between us and the Saviour. If we have a grudge, or a hurt dealt to another, we need to go to that person and clear the air. If they are unwilling to forgive, that is of no consequence so long as we are coming with an open heart asking for forgiveness. I believe that is what Jesus meant when he told us to leave our offering at the altar and to seek the forgiveness of our brother. He said to seek forgiveness, not to attain it. Belva | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess: That's an interesting point. Do you believe that a particular sin is not forgiven until that particular sin is confessed? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2101 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Jwd, I do agree that un-righted wrongs and harbored sin do impede our prayers' effectiveness because our hearts are compromised. James does make it clear that we are to confess our sins to each other and pray for each other. It is the prayer offered "in faith" (James 5:15) that is effective. I doubt that a person harboring sin is really able to pray for another "in faith". My disagreement with the idea of purifying oneself before an anointing is that our righteousness is from Christ. When we live by the Spirit, He reveals on a regular, ongoing basis the things we need to confess and surrender. I don't see heart-searching and praying for forgiveness the path to purification. I see surrender to Jesus and total trust in Him as the means of surrender. I'm sure I sound as if I'm splitting hairs here--I guess in a nutshell I'm saying the difference is focus. Are we looking inward, searching for unconfessed sins and hoping/praying to be worthy, or are we trusting Jesus and obeying when He asks us to surrender and confess? It's hard to put this into words; I just know how many years of my life I spent in spiritual agony worrying about confessing my sins. When I realized Jesus forgave me at the cross and covered me with His blood, the relief was enormous. No more agonizing! Now I am able to respond to Jesus when I've sinned against someone, and confession is no longer a desperate wish for absolution; it's a release of my self-protective impulses and the resulting freedom to praise Jesus for His forgiveness. Now confession is more about giving up my rights than it is about trying to be worthy. It's more about trusting the One who is disciplining me than it is about trying not to be an obstruction of His power. Even confession is about trusting Jesus with my heart. Colleen | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 |
Colleen, I could not agree more! Being raised in Adventism, educated (programmed) all those years, repeating the 27 "fundamental beliefs" over and over in the Quarterly, weekly, having one's social life totally couched within that closed community, being astranged from all other Christians - for the most part - and THEN to be suddenly out IN this world; like departing from the subway and standing in Times Square, with only a history of living in a small country town, - the shock and bewielderment is rather a daunting experience. But then as we/you continued to grow in our understanding of the gospel, my wife and I (and I assume you and Richard have found a similar experience); - we now frequently look at one another during a sermon or when reading a book, etc. and we pick up on what often is a very minute little detail, a single sentence; .. try to follow me here...and although we pretty much know the person speaking did not mean what we "saw" as a possible discrepancy - such as the confessing and trying to cleanse oneself before prayer for annointing, - - and we jump on it. That's not Gospel! We don't even have to innunciate the thought. One look and we both know what the other is thinking, what we heard or did not hear. I'm trying to tie that in with your present knowlege (I often prefer knowing to belief now - - since any error can be believed....and our walk now is not so much about belief, as it is about knowing God Himself as never before); wherein now we know we ARE forgiven. We stand spotless before the Father. And any confession is now from a sense of sadness that we lost our patience or we had a lustful thought, or we yelled in our car at a crazy driver who ran the light in front of us, etc. . . . not because we have to confess THAT but because we just are acknowledging the depth of the reality of our sinful nature being so apparent. But even THAT causes us to want to praise God, for in that moment we do not linger, focusing upon the slip, the evidence of our sinful nature still active, but upon rejoicing in that we ARE SAVED eternally here and now, Forgiven, Righteous with the Father's own righteousness! Praise God all legalistic motivation has been removed ..... or at least it is cropping up less and less as we now grow in the freedom of God's Grace. We don't have to "feel" like we "should" or we "ought to" read our Bible for so long each day in order to "stay" in the good graces of the Father. How total was my spirit dominated by the "should's" and "ought to's" of the Church as THE authority in our life! Gal 5:1 is so powerful and precious to me now! If you will permit me to let my imagination run free again, as it tends to do so much.... One can turn summer-salts (sp?), do jumping jacks, stand on their heads, skip, holler and scream and "say - I'm free!" But oh what one discovers when s/he does those very same things but NOW.......OUTSIDE THE CELL in the midst of a beautiful meadow with NO FENCES! :c) PAGL in Christ, (unedited due to time restraints) Jess | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2005 |
I think I need to be clear. What what my friend UNDERSTOOD was that she need to be purified SO THAT healing wouldn't be hindered. Jess and Colleen you have stated perfectly how I have come to know our salvation. In essence what my friend was told (at least what she understood) is that her unforgiven sin could be responsible for the annointed one's not being healed, that is physically healed. That is what I take issue with. That implies that God's sovereign will is limited by my unforgiven sins. I haven't found that in my study. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2005 |
Also, when I read what Colleen and Jess are saying, I get from it that our hearts need to be constantly re-aligned...that our sin nature constantly vies for the prominent position. I couldn't agree more. What I'm saying is that if God is hindered by my lack of a properly aligned heart, then that takes away (in my opinion) from His omnipotent nature. And furthermore, my heart will never be "purirfied" on this earth. You may also see this as splitting hairs, but I think this is part of the heart of the problem of works-oriented religion. It is ANY focus on what I can do. The best way to re-align my heart with God's is to spend time in His Word and in prayer with Him. A Spirit-indwelt Christian will be prompted to confess sin and so naturally that's part of the process, but the FOCUS on that part of the process is the problem. (at least that's my take on it). | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 505 Registered: 7-2004 |
I believe you have stated it well. The father is always willing to heal, always willing to forgive. When we impose our "believed" limitations upon him, it cuts back on the degree of faith we have in our prayers. We start equivocating, saying that we are too trivial for the Lord to pay any attention to, too sinful to acknowledge. In that moment we have forgotten that we are wearing the righteousness of Jesus, the purest form of righteousness there is. If only we could get our eyes off of ourselves and onto the truth of that, our faith would be able to "move mountains." I also believe that God answers all prayers, but in His own time. We are temporally bound, so we get anxious to see the results. God has a view from eternity, and has everything worked out so that that which is best for all of his children will be what happens. I prayed for my father's healing when he was diagnosed with cancer, and three weeks later we were standing around a hole in the ground crying. That has not dampened my faith that my father was healed--I just didn't get to see it happen. Heal me here, or heal me there, whatever is best for all of the people involved! Your friend doesn't need to become pure in order to pray, she needs to pray so that she becomes acquainted with the One who has always been willing to purify her. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2005 |
Patriar, to answer your question - - I just logged on with paint dried on my hands - - in the middle of mucho painting inside house. Yuk! My opinion counts for absolutely nothing. However for my understanding of Scripture, I do not believe any "particular sin," needs to be confessed by me, in order to be forgiven. When the Bible says we are cleansed "from ALL unrighteousness," it is clear we nor anyone else can add a "But...what about....?" to that. That is GREAT news! The blood of Jesus covers all my sins, past, present and future. Think for a moment of the sins of omission and the sins that take place in the mind! Lordy! I can "sin" technically, I'm quite sure, many times by just getting out of the car and going into the store and coming back out. Coveteousness, lustful thoughts, perhaps envy or jealousy, impatience - - how many times do we have instant surges of impatience, even anger, especially when I see all those "other" crazy drivers! LOL I can't possibly remember all those to confess. Thank God that all these are forgotten by Him, thrown into the depths of the sea, remembered no more! What precious words to comfort we the guilty! Our sins are remembered NO MORE by the Judge HImself! Hallejulah, what a Saviour, what a Holy God. I hope that answers the question you asked of me back up on this board. :c) God bless, Jess | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2005 |
Belvalew: Thank you for that. I love your eternal perspective. Jess: Thank you for clearing that up for me. p.s. I have LOTS of painting that needs to be done....just in case you don't have enough to do.  Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2102 Registered: 12-2003 |
Belva, I also love your eternal perspective! Jess, I relate to your experience above, and I agree. Again, it seems to be a matter of semantics affected by whether or not one is looking at the situation as one who has experienced Christ's forgiveness or as one who has resisted it. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess: I realized as I was re-reading what I wrote that I sounded flippant about your beautiful and well thought out response. What you said resonated loud and clear in my heart. As I was reading it, all I could think was OH THANK YOU JESUS!! Because you are so right. Sin is oozing out of us (me) and Jesus' Righteousness makes it look as if I'm lily white to the One who knows my heart. Lately I am reminded of Luther's statement that we are snow covered dung. That used to offend me when I was an SDA. I haven't fully figured that out yet. Now, I'm just so thankful! Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. Patria p.s. I heard a little joke: Thank you God that I haven't sinned today. I haven't taken your Name in vain and I haven't been angry at a single soul. I haven't yelled at my kids or even at my husband...but I'm about to get out of bed now... | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2005 |
Patria, I didn't sense a flippant attitude. But hey! I'm a doofus much of the time. So if you were flippant - - flip away, girl! LOL My opinion means nothing. It's only that: my opinion. I often say "today" this is my conviction or my understanding - - realizing that I may discover a different angle of light upon the subject or text or conviction tomorrow, and will have to change. I am not nearly gifted enough with all seeing, all knowing, and the top of the ladder intellect. I can only share from what I know within my own spirit, and what I am convicted (TODAY) is what is the meaning or truth or explaination of this or that. But may I have some room to sieze upon something you said above? I hope so, since I can't see you nod yes or no. You said Jesus righteousness "makes you LOOK as if you are lily white." I know this IS semantics again, but I'd like for you to consider using the words, not Look like" but AM whiter than snow. Yes God's Righteousness is imputed to us, just as a million dollars placed in my checking account by Oprah or Donald Trump (ok so I'm dreaming!) would, after that deposit, under MY account number and MY name - - BE MINE! All mine! totally Mine. So that is the context in which I submit that you ARE whiter than snow, Whither than the whitest, purest Lily, just as surely as you ARE Saved, eternally saved, this very moment. For awhile my previous SADventist programming made me always feel I had to clarify that "I am eternally saved now" comment, with the acknowledgement of turning my back on Christ, rejecting the Gospel at some point in the future and then being lost. I no longer - or rarely - do that anymore. I say, AWAY with such talk. Why even acknowledge it? Doctrinally we know that once saved is linked to my ever abiding in Christ......but let me sing the praises only that I AM SAVED, ETERNALLY SAVED in Jesus Christ, by God's Amazing Grace! Need I say more? If anyone has an objection, I'll say, "Take it up with HIM! It's HIS (money) Grace, His act, His Love, His atoning sacrifice on my part and His free gift to undeserving me! Take it up with HIM!" :c) Jess't rejoicing in my salvation! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 400 Registered: 3-2005 |
I'm a doofus too, Jess, but what does LOL stand for? Stan | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 213 Registered: 8-2004 |
LOL = Laugh Out Loud | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1853 Registered: 11-2002 |
I think, Patriar, that is the SDA belief on annointing. Many years ago my much loved little son was in the Saint Helena San dying from spinal meningitis. I went and asked the SDA minister who had an office at the college up in Angwin to come annoint my child and to pray for his healing. As soon as the minister found out I was shacked up with my boyfriend, living in sin, he refused to pray for my little boy. He wouldn't do it because he said God only hears the prayerts of the righteous and I didn't qualify so he wouldn't pray for my child. I went home and wrote a letter to the last SDA church that I thought might have my name on their books and told them the'd best get my name off their books and from that day forward I was going to try to find a CHRISTIAN church group to worship with. BTW, my son grew to be a good man and now has his own family. The SDA preacher did pray before I left his office. He asked God to strighten me out. Good thing to pray for but still not what I went to him for. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess: Thank you for pointing that out to me. Semantics or not, it is an incredibly important point and I appreciate your guidance! I have tears in my eyes as it hits me anew that I AM lily white in His eyes because Heaven knows I don't deserve it. He is AMAZING. Susan_2: Thank you for your story. Praise GOD that He has set us free from that kind of hypocrisy. And PRAISE HIM that your son was healed. What a testimony! | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2005 |
by the way...I'm glad someone cleared that up because I thought LOL meant lots of luck (LOL) and now light has dawned on my marble head. (I really am laughing out loud!!) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1606 Registered: 3-2004  |
Patriar, A good one is "ROFL" which means rolling on floor laughing. Diana | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 151 Registered: 6-2001 |
Don't worry Pat, for a long time I thought LOL ment "Laughing On Line" Shamefully, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2112 Registered: 12-2003 |
It took me awhile, too, to figure out these online abbreviations. I first encountered many of them when I started teaching 9th grade English six years ago at Arrowhead Christian Academy. Staid middle-aged woman that I was, I was mystified when I began reading LOL, ROFL, BTW, etc. in some of my students' journals. When I finally figured out what I was reading and realized my students were learning these on line, then I became annoyed. Leave it to an English teacher to react, but when young teens don't even understand that these acronyms are not legitimate WORDS, it seems respect for language has taken a nose dive. I know language changes, and I'm not suggesting that these abbreviations not be used--but they surely couldn't use them in my English assignments! I was most definitely NOT laughing out loud! OK--I've stepped off my soapbox! Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2005 |
Collen: You made me laugh out loud! (notice I spelled it out) I am not an English teacher, but definitely have pet peeves. One of them is the word "like". Why does it have to come between every other word in a sentence??? So like I was like going to like the store and I saw some like new pop. Like it was great! WHAT IS THAT! Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2122 Registered: 12-2003 |
Like, Patria, what is POP?! Like here in California, we call it SODA! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 747 Registered: 10-2004  |
LOL!  Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 413 Registered: 4-2000  |
In North Carolina it is also SODA, but here in Nebraska, the good life, it is POP. :-) |
