| Author | Message | ||
| Lori |
I started a new thread based on George's comment under the discussion of 'Problem Ellen White Quotes'. I've been having this exact same discussion with a friend who is having trouble accepting once saved, always saved. So I'd like to add my comments and hear yours! I'm using George's comments because they just stood out the most in my mind. He made the comment that seemed to say, he had difficulty believing that we could continue to be saved unconditionally, apart from our actions. (correct me if I misinterpreted) He used the analogy of his children and how they were disciplined if they willfully disobeyed and when they were ignorant of their disobedience they were not. George, when your child willfully disobeyed, at what point in their disobedience, did you consider them not your child anymore? (That's a really stupid question for me to ask you isn't it? There is no point of your child's disobedience when you disown them!!!!) So it is with God, he does not disown us because we accidentally sin OR purposefully sin. It seems that murder stands out as the most hideous of sins to the human nature, but do you realize that to God, the sins that our words do are just as detestable. Would you want to be disowned because you said something you shouldn't have said? I don't!!! And, yes, sometimes I say things and I actually enjoyed saying it, I enjoyed getting the other person 'back'. It doesn't mean it's ok and it doesn't mean I'm lost. It means I've stepped outside of God's will, I've decided to follow my own course and until I confess my sin, I'm going to be disciplined; and even after I confess, depending on what I've done, the discipline may still continue, but I'm always His child. (just has when your child does something, sometimes it requires a disciplinary action that is administered and completed immediately and sometimes it requires a discipline that is administered but is not completed until days later. (i.e....revolking some priviledge) John 10:28 says "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; NO ONE can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; NO ONE can snatch them out of my Father's hand." Are you bigger than God? Do you really think that there is something that you can do that is bigger than the grace of God? The NO ONE in that scripture means YOU, too! You are in God's hand.........do you really think that you can TAKE something away from GOD!!! I don't. | ||
| Maryann |
Lori, That was great. There are many people out there, including Formers that have "tossed it", that will appreciate the approach you took. Logical, makes sense and only ONE verse to back it up. And an AWESOME verse at that! Thank you........Maryann | ||
| Bruce H |
Maryann I have a little more than one text, remember my poor writing skills, Ha Ha. We become saved at one event. When you accept the Gospel, when you decide that there is no way you yourself can be saved. John 12:24 24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.. Notice that if it (or you) dies it produces much grain. What we die to is the Law (Rom 7:4), Then Jesus Christ gives us Life through the Holy Spirit, this is called being Born again. When this event happens you become His Sheep, you are given a new heart or have your heart circumcised, you become a child of God. Eph 1:13-14 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. 2 Cor 1:22 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. Notice that the Holy Spirit is your GUARANTEE, notice that it is when you believe. Not all people are his, not all sheep are his. only those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Rom 8:9 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. So if the Holy Spirit does not dwell in you, you are not a son of God, a saint, you are of the flesh or the world. Notice that Jesus does not pray for the world but only for those who are his. John 17:9-11 9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Notice That if you are his, then he has prayed to the Father to keep you, do you think the Father can do that, do you believe? John 10:28-30 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 "I and My Father are one." So do you think sombody can snatch you out of God1s hand do you believe? By the way when you become one of his sheep, who is responsible for keeping the herd together, is the sheep to find the shepherd, or the shepherd to find the sheep? Do you believe? Heb 10:14 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. So are you perfect forever THOSE WHO ARE BEING SANCTIFIED, do you believe? John 14:16-17 16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. So the Holy Spirit will dwell in you forever. Do you believe? John 3:5-7 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.' So first we are born of the Flesh with the breaking of our mother water, this is to be born of water, but we must also be born of the Spirit, this is when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit,this is when we ENTER INTO HIS REST. Do you believe? 1 John 2:27 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. So the Holy Spirit not only gives us life he also teaches us. Why would we need Ellen White when I have the Holy Spirit. Do you believe? 1 John 5:11-13 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Do you have the son. Do you believe? EPH 2:18-19 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, We have access through the Holy Spirit and are thus sons of God. Do you believe. Adventist will tell you, but you need to do works. John 6:28-29 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." So do you believe? Adventist will tell you, you have to overcome. Rev 3:5 5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 1 John 5:5 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? Can you overcome, will you believe? Yes I know that I am saved and I believe that nobody can take me away from him. PRAISE GOD!!!!!!! Bruce Heinrich | ||
| George |
Lori, Thank you for your well thought out reply. Just to make sure we are on the same wave length, I have trouble believing we are saved IN SPITE of our actions. The difference between the way God punishes and the way I punish is that Godís is capital punishment and mine would be only corporal. So the stakes are much higher. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. It doesnít say the wages of some sins is death or the wages of sin is partial death or anything of the kind. So it means to me if I sin, any sin, I MUST die. The basic idea of the game as I see it is, If you donít sin, you will not die. If you do, you will. That was the test in the Garden of Eden. There is a way we can get around this, accept Christ. John 10:28 is a good verse and I agree fully, when we accept Him we have eternal life and no one can snatch us away. There is no one stronger than God. But it does not say that we canít leave if we want to. It says that no one can take us away if we donít want to go. This is where the free choice comes in, to stay or not to stay, those are the choices. God will hold no one against their will. So, if you play the game you have to play by the rules. If you break the rules you die, and to me, this means even after you are saved, unless you repent. This I feel applies to one sin or all sins no mater how big or small. If my children do what I tell them not to do, they are no less my children, they will be my punished children. How ever if I say donít drink out of that bottle, (And it has poison in it) or I say donít play basketball on the freeway, and they do, then they will be my dead children. Still, no less my children. My idea in raising my kids was to give them very few doís and doníts. But to make very SURE they did them------EVERY time with out fail. There are very few things; do what I say, when I say it. Do not lie. Do not do what I tell you not to do. These things cover about every thing. These were my rules. The consequences of breaking my rules was not death, nor was it long and drawn out. Often it was just a stern look and sometimes a word. But, it was every time, EVERY time. But, this is not the case with God. He said the wages of sin is death. These are the rules, and I donít think He will let us get away with anything. I also think we are His children all the time. He made us. Even if we are not, and we are His children only after we are saved it doesnít say we canít leave, and, if we do, doesnít say we donít have to ask to come back. And I donít mean we have to flog ourselves or do penance of some kind to get back in, it just means we have to ask. Salvation is still there, it is still free. What could be easier. Lori, looking forward to your response. Thank you for YOUR thoughts in your own words. George | ||
| Ernie |
George: I understand your point since I once belived like you do. However, I would like to begin with the fact that salvation is the result of of God's actions in Christ. When we accept God's salvation, we do it in Christ. The New Testament present salvation as a certainty for those who have come to the saving knowledge of Christ (1 John 5:20). You mention the fact that the wage of sin is death, but you forget to mention that God's gift is salvation (Rom. 6:23). It is true that sin produces death, but we are now in Christ. God has charged Christ as guilty in order for us to be declared innocent (2 Cor. 5:21). The nature of salvation is eternal life (John 3:16). If we can lose our salvation by our actions, then all of us are eternally lost because we are all sinners (1John 1:7-10). Therefore, our salvation is grounded in those actions of God in Christ. In Christ, we have been saved forever. May God bless you with the blessing of being eternally assured of your salvation, Ernie | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ernie, It seems that George believes that nothing or no one can take you from the grasp of God. Go back and look at his post, 3rd paragragh from the bottom. He seems to be making the point that God will not FORCE himself on you and if after you are in the grasp of God you chose to leave, you can? I think that is a good point and needs to be addressed. Maryann | ||
| Joni |
George, When we fully understand the Grace of God, we live for Him and Grace teaches us. Titus 2:11-15. "For the Grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you." Grace is the teacher. We now live for the glory of God. And if we do fall and sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. If we confess our sins He is just and will forgive. Romans 6. We are no longer slaves to sin. Sin becomes a choice. We are slaves to Righteousness. Because we have been identified with Christ. I think that God is in the business of saving us. He is not wanting any to perish. I am so free now that I understand this. Praise God. Joni | ||
| George |
First of all I would like to thank all who have responded, your comments are very much appreciated. However, I think you have missed the point I was trying to make. I have no problem with the idea of salvation, whether it is free, or certain, or that Christ died to give it to us, or that all we have to do is ask for it. This may surprise you, but that is what I was taught as an SDA back in the fifties. SO I HAVE NO TROUBLE WITH HOW WE ARE SAVED, WHEN, OR FOR HOW LONG. These thoughts and ideas are directed to PREMEDITATED sins, you know the ones we DECIDE to do. The unintentional sins are a whole different story. What I have noticed in talks with SDAís and other religious people, is that they are so blinded to the things I say, and to what I mean when I talk about certain things, they donít get the point. Some how they canít get past their own ideas and, REALLY HEAR what I have to say. This makes me wonder if they are really getting the right idea from the Bible because they canít get past their own ideas . One thing I like to have people do in this situation is to have them answer a way that is different for them. On other words do things like not using the same verses, or not quoting then but paraphrasing in their own words. As to the question of whether we can sin after we are saved and be lost. Think of Adam, he was created perfect. He was better than being saved if you want to say it that way, because he had eternal life given to him with out the problem of having sinned in the first place. If you want to, you could say Eve had an excuse for what she did because the devil with all his power went to work on her. But Adam CHOSE to eat the fruit to be with Eve. If he could choose to give up the eternal life he had before he fell, how are we any better than him. The only way he could have eternal life then was to make the appropriate sacrifices, which points forward to Christís death that gives US eternal life. If he could give up the eternal life he was given at creation by committing one sin , what is to say we canít give up ours that was given to us by Christís death the same way? Notice, Adam had a choice, if we donít have a choice then the game has changed and we are in trouble. In the things I have written in this post I have not ment to be rude, I just want to be sure that my thoughts are clear. Thanks for listening----George | ||
| Lori |
George, I'm going to answer your question, under the assumption that its based on the following question: If I believe that Jesus, (God's son) lived, died and rose again paying the price (of death) for all sins for all humanity, will I still be saved, even if I'm insurbordinate? YES Because Jesus' payment on the cross was unlimited atonement. There has never and will never be a time when the Godhead has not, did not or will not know what is going to happen. There is not one sin that you can commit that is going to surprise God. Jesus paid the price for all sins, not just the ones that you committed ignorantly or the ones that you committed before you accepted Him, but all of them. He paid the penalty for the sins you do on the spur of the moment and for the ones you PLAN!!!! He paid the penalty for the sins you commit because you committed one sin and then you commit even more sins because 'you are on a roll'. He paid the penalty for the sins of worry and guilt that you carry around because you didn't forget the sins in your past even though you confessed it, you held on to it and you fostered more sins in its path. There is no sin that you will ever commit that is not covered by redemption, the sacrifice has already been made; the sins you are going to commit tomorrow, next week or next year have already been paid for by death. You can not and will not be judged for those sins again!!!!! The only people surprised by what you do will be you and the people you know and the people who witness or hear about what you do. God will not be shocked by your actions, behavior and lack of self control. The judgement will be based on one factor. Believer or Unbeliever. If you Believe before you physically died then you will be marked as Righteous, if you are an unbeliever you will be marked Condemned. There is no mention of the word sins in the judgement. You will either stand before God, with Christ as your 'attorney' and be covered by the righteousness of Christ and your name will have remained in the book of life or you will reject Christ as your 'attorney' and you will stand before God with only your deeds to speak for you and your name will have been blotted out of the Book of Life and you will be Condemned, because the only way to God is through Christ, the 'attorney'. There is only on unpardonable sin: rejection of Christ. Even Unbelievers will not be judged for their sins, just like Believers their sins were already judged on the cross. It's all about Faith! Not Faith plus your efforts to be good! Just plain Faith. There is a tremendous difference in rejecting God and not being faithful to God. When you sin, as a believer, you are not rejecting God, you are being unfaithful to God. "If----(maybe you will, maybe you won't)----we (positionally) die (on the cross) with him, we will also (spiritually) live with him; If we endure (continue to believe), we will also reign with him. If we disown (reject) him, he will also disown (reject) us; IF WE ARE FAITHLESS (if we ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit and follow our sinful nature, but we still believe in Him as Saviour) HE WILL REMAIN FAITHFUL, for he cannot disown himself." 2 Tim. 2 :11-13 He cannot reject us, because we believe and are IN HIM, if he rejected those who believe in him, he would have to reject himself. And he can not reject himself!!!! Our 'continued' salvation is not based upon our actions. You will be saved in spite of your actions. | ||
| George |
Lori Now,you are making me think! Where does it say that the unbelievers will not be judged for their sins. If this is true it changes alot of things. I will be away from the computer till monday morning so I wont be able to answer but I might be able to get a print out of what you say. Thanks again for answering so fast. George | ||
| Lori |
George, Here is why I believe that God will not mention the unbeliever's sins at the Last Judgement. God will not put us on trial for the same crime twice because every sin has already been judged at the cross and since Christ will be the Judge at the Last Judgment, he cannot mention those things (all humanities sins) for which he has already been judged. So, if believers and unbeliever can not be judged for sins, the only thing that we can be judged for is our works (deeds). Rev. 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne and Him (Jesus) who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them." In Scripture, white represents righteousness. Christ was judged for our sins, on the cross, but at the great white throne He is the righteous Judge. The only people trying to escape from this judgment are unbelievers. They will be ressurected to stand before Him in judgment. Rev. 20:12 "And I saw the dead (the Greek word here, for dead, denotes that these are the spiritually dead), great and small, standing before the throne, and books (notice this is plural) were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds." (the Greek word for deeds means works) Notice that the unbelievers who have been resurrected, called the "dead" are standing before the throne and are judged according to their "works", not according to their sins. In this context works does not refer to personal sin because the sins of all humanity were imputed to Christ at the cross and have already been judged. Sins are not to be the basis for indictment at the Last Judgment. Condemnation of the unbeliever is based only on human works. Why? When the unbeliever rejects the work of Christ he has only his good works to rely on as a substitute. And these works can never measure up to God's perfect righteous. | ||
| Maryann |
Lori, You must have used wheels WAY, WAY back in the far corner of your brain to come up with this concept. Very good. I like that idea of not being judged twice for the same thing. I would like you to run that thought a little further. Maybe even a verse to go with it. You are also getting in the neighborhood of the study I want to post on Rewards V Salvation. I just have been very "down" and have hardly been able to keep an open Bible in my hand. (It just closes?) I guess I have been going through a bit of a "depression", which is way out of character for me! Maryann | ||
| Bruce H |
GEORGE 1 John 1:8 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Ellen Whits says that we will get to a point were we do not sin. Notice what the bible says about people that say this. The truth is not in them (Meaning the Holy Spirit). Now let us look at what Paul says Rom 7:14-17 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. (By the way He said this after recieveing the Holy Spirit or being saved) 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. (Remember we are still in the flesh) 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. George let me close with a Little old testament story. I guess you know the story of Samson. If you read the story in the bible (In Judges 13) You will see that the angel said that he would be a Nazirite to the Lords from his birth (Jud 13:5,7) to the day of his death. Now as you know Samson did not do anything right in fact he broke almost all of the commandments of God and I mean the Big stony 10, however God did not resend his blessing when Samson started doing things wrong, and boy did he do things wrong. In fact God did not take away his strength until he Violated his Nazirite status by having his hair cut, it was at this time that God removed Samson1s strength. The Angel stated that he would be a Nazirite to the Lord until his death as so Samson was even when he cut his hair he was still God'S and the Lord did a mighty work in Samson to deliver His people. Here is How I see it when we become Born Again in Christ and God gives us His Holy Spirit as a guarantee and we become Children of God then nothing can take us away from Christ not even breaking the Commandments like Samson did. However Look how it ended for Samson, He comes to us as a negative example but an example none the less, notice in Heb 11:32 that Paul included him in the Hall of Faith category. It looks to me that Faith is what God is looking for, He is looking for those who trust in Him, now then ask your self do you want to be a good example or a bad one the choice is your1s in Christ. Remember What Paul said in I Cor 6:12 Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial. George When you give your Heart to the Lord, HE WILL MAKE THIS PLAINLY CLEAR. It is the Holy Spirt who will change us and God will do it in His time and in His way. Bruce Heinrich BH | ||
| Burce H |
George When I gave my Heart to the Lord in November of 1997, I noticed that Satan seemed to be working even harder than when I was not the Lord's. At first this puzzled me, If I am saved by God and Satan can not get at me then why is he now tempting me and making my life so very misserable and hard. Then it accured to me that it is not me that he is after, it is my family and friends. If he can make me look bad then Satan has a good shot at getting them, If I profess Christ in my Life and yet my family can not see change then they will not belive in Jesus. I knew that I had to change but I also knew that some of my sinfull habbits I myself could not change, so I have learned that I have to let the Power of the Holy Spirit change me. I know see obeying God as a means of Salvation for my family and friends and not me. Bruce Heinrich BH Yours i | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bruce and Everyone, You tied that in really well! I never thought of the Samson story that way. Funny how I know all these Bible stories, but, through the eyes of "Athur Maxwell's Bible Stories". Also, remember the beautiful pictures in the books? They are so permanently etched in my mind and they even portray the SDA doctrine! What a great concept the SDAs had in, indoctrinating their young people. I had those books read to me from infancy and as I learned to read, I read them so many times that I could nearly quote word for word, every story! The Bible was very SELDOM read. EGW was extensively read to me. Mom was so concientious about having morning and evening worship every day that I conservatively had 1 hour of EGW every single day of my life from 3 years old on. That is over 5,500 hours, 230 days, 33 weeks and a bit more than 8 months!! It would really surprise me if I had a total of 200 hours of Bible in that 15 years!? Now to the above totals you can add atleast the same numbers to the "Maxwell Bible Stories". And add at least the same time to the other "fun" books; "Uncle Arthur's Children's Hour", and the "The Bedtime Stories". Holy Cow, LOL, ROTF!? That makes over 16,500 hours, nearly 700 days, 100 weeks and a grand total of 2, yeh, 2 years! Now you add Sabbath School, Church and Campmeetings. That is about 700 more days in my life. Now you have about 17,200 hours, 730 days, 104 weeks, and 2 years and 1 month! That is nearly 15% of my life from age 3 to 18! I don't fault Mom for this. In fact I really respect her for it. It was not easy to keep up the ritual of all this reading and studying. I know that God understands that she was doing the best that she "knew" to her knowledge. And I think most of y'all's parents did the best they knew as did you, to your own children. I guess I really wanted y'all to really put togather and see in black and white just how much EGW/SDA has been ingrained in you. Most of y'all can multiply my figures several times over because you "went on" in the SDA faith where I quit at 18! Get a load of that, WOW, that ceases to be funny really quick. So, you that are now Formers, when you have "flash backs" (LouiseS)(Steve) realize just how much stuff you have had to put behind you. You guys that are still looking at SDAism and wondering if it is right, (Beverly) just realize how much stuff you have to "put on ice" just to look at the other side. Wow, I unloaded!? I hope this was not a bore to y'all. Maryann | ||
| George |
Bruce You are always so fast to answer. Your thoughts on Samson are interesting and I need to take a longer look at them. Thanks Lori It makes sence, if He died for ALL sins that would be for the sins of the wicked too. Well maybe we shouldn't call them the wicked anymore just the unbelievers. In the light of this it seems that not believing is the only thing that will keep us out. Something to think about for sure. Thanks much------George | ||
| George |
Lori, If I understand you right, this is the most profound way I have ever had salvation and the forgiveness of sin presented to me. Just thought I would tell you----George | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lori and Bruce, thank you again for wonderful explanations. Both of you have such clear, good insights. George, another way of thinking that might help you (I say this because it transformed my understanding) is to really identify what sin is. When Adam and Eve first sinned, they DID die. Satan told them they wouldn't, but God had told them they would. Physically they stayed alive for quite a long time, but spiritually something happened. We know something happened because they felt shame and guilt, and they tried to hide. Thanks to my Adventist upbringing, it took me a long time to deal with the idea of a human spirit. But if you think about it, the existence of a spirit (not breath, as we were taught), helps the explanation of sin. When Adam and Eve died, they died spiritually. That's quite a separate thing from physical death. Their spirits had been in unity and complete communion with God. When they sinned, that union was broken. Their spirits no longer were connected to God. They were separated from him, and they KNEW something had changed because they hid from God in the garden. In Romans 5:12 Paul says, "sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned." Adam's legacy to the human race was spiritual death. Now, as an Adventist, I thought that meant something nebulous like we have genetic tendencies to sin, and we are born sinful (sinful flesh), and none of us is able to be good; we all are born to sin. Now I see that sin is spiritual, not physical. Sin is not the "sins" we commit; those are just an indication that we have SIN. Sin is being separated from God. Sin is being born with a dead spirit, torn from the source of life: God. All humanity had dead spirits until Jesus came and died and took care of the sin problem. Yes, people in the Old Testament were saved by their faith in a coming Redeemer; they were saved by believing God would take care of the problem as he promised. After Jesus rose from the tomb and ascended to heaven he asked the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until the Day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit took residence in the New Covenant temple: the human hearts of Christ-followers. In the Old Covenant, the temple was a tent (in the wilderness) or a building in Jerusalem. Now God's temple is WE WHO BELIEVE! When we accept Jesus, He places the Holy Spirit inside us. God actually lives within us. When this miracle happens, we are born again; we now have restored to us a living spirit. We're no longer "natural man" with a dead soul or spirit; we are born from above, and we have a living soul, just like pre-sin Adam and Eve! Jesus' death and resurrection took care of the death that God said was essential as a consequence of sin. Our bad deeds, or "sins", are not the essence of SIN. Sin is having a soul separated from God. It's having a dead spirit. When we accept Jesus and receive a living spirit and the real presence of the Holy Spirit within us, we are spiritually alive. We are, however, still physically dying. Our bodies will not be redeemed until the resurrection. Because we are still locked into mortal flesh with our inheritance of weakness and bad habits, our natural selves will still do bad deeds. But when we have a living soul, or spirit, our desire will be for God and for his likeness instead of for self-indulgence and destruction. These natural lapses, or "sins", do not change the fact that we are now in Christ; we now have living spirits! We still have the Holy Spirit in us! And the reality is that the indwelling Holy Spirit will gradually and inexorably change us to become more and more like God. This change does not happen because we commit to being good and try to make wise choices; this change happens because we have committed ourselves to loving Jesus. His love for us results in our changing from the inside, not because we are trying harder, but because we are now spiritually alive, and the power of God is in us! Our "job" is to pursue and nurture our relationship with Jesus. Our job is to talk to him, to read his Word, to be open to his revealing truth to us. Our "job" is to respond to truth when God makes it clear. It's to be willing to relinquish to Him attitudes or habits that hold us in bondage. It is Love that changes us. It is Love that restores us to spiritual life; it is Love that will ultimately restore us to eternal physical life as well. But for now, we spiritually enter eternal life when we accept Jesus. Jesus gives us his Spirit and his life and his righteousness; we are spiritually alive, and when God looks at us, he sees a living soul connected to him, not a dead soul fighting him. Our "natural man" bad deeds cannot separate us from the love of Christ; they cannot undo our living souls. If we accept Jesus and believe he has redeemed us, we are assured of salvation. We are alive eternally in Him! Prayers and blessings to you, George! Colleen | ||
| BMorgan |
Colleen, That one is a real clincher for me. Remember when Jesus healed the blind man, and he was asked about it, he said. "All I know I was blind and now I see. That is how I see. I may never be able to explain it to my sda friends who query, but I know (and they see) that I am alive in Christ. Is that the reason adventists tend to look at sin as external behaviors, ie breaking the law: not going to church on Saturday mornings, divorcing, eating unclean meat, and wearing jewelry per se', yet they relish gossip, slander, criticism and PRIDE? Sins of the Spirit which will grieve our hearts when were born of the spirit. I don't mean that we feel guilty because someone may look at us differently, but true disgust that we are conpelled to(confess immediately) agree with God. Praise the Lord who has poured His Love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit whom He has given us. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is Love and whoever lives in love, lives in God and God in him. Finally, I add, ..neither height, nor depth, nor anything in all creation is able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. He lives in my heart, though the outward wasteth away, the inward is being renewed. What a Concept! Thanks Colleen. BMorgan | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen, Bruce and Lori, Can I exercise my free will and choice and jump completely out of that now spiritually alive condition and be in the completely spiritually dead condition I was born in????? :-(! Maryann |
