| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2036
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:18 pm: |     |
Dane, it's really good to see you here again! I've been wondering how you are...
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 336
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 6:52 am: | |
Maybe we have exhausted this topic. But here is a link to an article with a critique of Rick Warren's book. I am not claiming to endorse this, since it has been so long since I have read the book. This critique appears similar to what Chris posted earlier about Warren's use of scripture.
www.challies.com/archives/000607.php
For those of you who have read the book, is this article fair or unfair? |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 895
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:28 am: | |
I read the article and many of the posts below. One of the posters made part of what I think. We did read the book in our small group and watch the video, but all discussion was around the topic in our lives to Christ. It was not how do we become like what Rick says, but how do we become what Christ wants for each of us, knowing that is individually based. Regardless of what he says about Rick's presentation of the gospel, our pastor is very clear on the gospel, and his messages were his, not RIck's and our songs were ours, not some 3rd party program. While the article or the posters talk about people ignoring the Bible to read pdl, how is that different than doing any Bible study including a Beth Moore series or Experiencing God...all of those are someone leading someone else through a topic with their thoughts and ideas sprinkled throughout. If PDL is seen as an evil, then all devotional books must be as well. I know in our church, people who would never otherwise make time for a small group made time for this. And though I think there is some validity to the claims on how he handles SOME (certainly not all) scripture, I don't see it as a deep theological study. I do think God has a purpose for our lives. I don't think I'm an accident and that God does not have plans for me, just because he was talking about someone in Israel when he made that statement in Jeremiah (as is one of the critiques in the article). We learn things of God by how he handled different people in different situations. It doesn't seem out of context to think he also has plans for me...this is just an example of one of the passages he tries to say is taken out of context because the point was made to Israel, not the church.
I personally was not aware of all of the conversation about the book in other circles, but I was surprised that he likened it to getting people to see Mel Gibson's movie. I can only assume he thought that a bad thing too. (And I've never heard of the person who wrote the article)
Yes, we need to be reading the Bible, but I hardly think PDL is evil incarnate. It is not a "doctrine" book per se. I saw the book as one trying to motivate people to act with purpose in their lives, including their faith. It was a basic book. I did not like the use of the paraphrase Bibles, but I didn't think the book without merit, as the critique seems to claim.
He also said Rick's explanation of the variety of versions conflicted...I didn't see it that way. He agreed with point one to a point, but considered point 2 to be a conflict, which I do not. Many here have said the same thing...reading EGW words outside of the church seems to have helped some of you see things differently than you did when you were in the church. I think that's his point in #2. Sometimes we read the words so many times, that we gloss over them without absorbing their meaning. Reading in a version we are not familiar with may use different words that help us see what we may have not seen or glossed over before. I can say that after I got my amplified version. Passages that I read before and could quote the words made a different sort of impact than when I read them over and over from my NASB...not that either translation is "wrong" or that the amplified is somehow giving new nuances that didn't exist before. I was just paying attention better, differently, whatever.
Going through the series, I hated it when he only took a phrase out of a scriptured, and likened it to what I've read in adventism. But I really don't think he's trying to kidnap the Christian church or make people complacent zombies in their walk. I have seen more people get involved in the church ministries because of the book, and that is a good thing. We haven't mentioned Rick since we finished the book, and we've spent six months in the book of ephesians, going verse by verse...
So, while I think there are some valid points, I don't see whole churches competing to be the best PD church as he claims. I personally did not finish the book because it was just too basic to me. But I skimmed it because we had some really immature Christians in our group and it gave me the opportunity to share with them (if that doesn't sound arrogant) from my experiences and growth through the years.
I still see it as a tool. Experiencing God moved me in some of the same ways I hear from people about PDL. I can't condemn sincere growth. They're not out there buying every Rick Warren mug out there.
Having said all that, I think the assessment is biased negatively. The positive things have such as those mentioned here are real, and can't be ignored as this critque does. The critique seems to think PDL will water down the Christian life. I guess if someone stops all study with that book, he might be right. But if it's a starting point, he's given it too much power. I don't recall any on this thread saying they reference it every day beyond their initial reading and study. I suspect that is what's happening in the general population more often than not. And why condemn those outside of Christianity for reading it?? God can use anything, right?
That's my 2 cents.... |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 806
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:52 am: | |
I read the critique and found the comments on the use of scripture to be valid. I however, disagree with much of what was said under the "Gospel" section. It appears to me that this gentleman is judging the presentation of the Gospel from a hyper-Calvinist perspective. That is, he is against evangelism that is decision-based and I suspect he would likely disagree strongly with the type of decision-driven evangelistic crusades that Billy Graham holds as well (I have read hyper-Calvinistic authors that object strongly to Billy Graham crusades because they do not believe there is any decision or choice whatsoever in receiving Christ - this is consistent with the T, U, & I in TULIP).
I am not trying to start a debate on predestination vs. free-will, I'm simply saying that I think it's unfortunate that some in the hyper-Calvinism camp consider any views that are not full 5 point Calvinism to be a corruption of the Gospel, or a "different Gospel". We can debate this vigoraously, but we don't need to divide over it or denegrade those who engage in decision based evangelism just because we don't believe free-will exist. It's a debatable point.
Chris |
Goldenbear
Registered user
Username: Goldenbear
Post Number: 94
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:24 am: | |
A very common theme heard from those coming out of the adventist church was that they just didn't know all the information about EGW or the workings of the church. When introduced to sources of information other than Adventist media streams, people start to see the disconnect and study more. I only wish that I had taken the opportunity to study into these things when I was younger. Groupthink is a dangerous thing. Many of us have experienced it. I have become increasingly skeptical of what I read. I find myself looking for additional reading or information.
With that in mind, in doing some research, I have found several sites that are not so positive about Warren and the PDL. I don't know if I agree with them, but I do find them interesting reading. I present them, not because I endorse them, but merely for discussion.
Paul Proctor reviews an opinion of the Atlanta court murderer and the way the young lady who talked him into giving up confronted him.
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor68.htm
Berit Kjos is an alternative news reporter and author who has another view of what is going on.
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm
A forbes magazine interview with Peter Drucker, who has had a tremendous influence on Rick Warren
http://www.forbes.com/management/2004/11/19/cz_rk_1119drucker.html
A more philosophical review of Outcome Based Education and how Drucker, Demming and Warren maybe promoting Outcome based Religion...
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1506ch13.html
I do not endorse the authors or their views, I merely provide them to further discussion and give another opinion.
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Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 274
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:29 am: | |
Will someone please explain to me why we are obsessing on this forum about Rick Warren?
If you want to find criticisms of various Christian teachers and leaders, no doubt there are some critics for everyone you can name - including some that each of us probably holds in high esteem!
I even know some people who would disagree with me on a variety of topics (ha ha).
Bob |
Goldenbear
Registered user
Username: Goldenbear
Post Number: 95
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 12:34 pm: | |
I am chuckling at your post Bob.
I look at the discussion and see that we have strayed far from the origins of the thread. I apologize for my part of the digression.
Looking forward to other threads and interesting discussion points. |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 143
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 12:56 pm: | |
Bob - "Will someone please explain to me why we are obsessing on this forum about Rick Warren?"
Why?? probably because there is something in our "heritage" or "jeans" that "demands" us to be critical.  Now if I can just get my tongue unstuck from the inside of my cheek.
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 338
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 1:21 pm: | |
We must remember that Rick Warren has become the number one Guru for American Evangelicalism, having sold 19.5 million books on PDL alone. I was very impressed by the links that Goldenbear posted. Warren has been influenced strongly by another pop psychologist, Robert Schuller. It is true that I am coming from an anti-Arminian bias,just as I came out of Adventist Arminianism, which was hyper-Arminianism. I am not a hyper-Calvinist, but I do believe that we are saved at a time of God's own choosing, and not our own choosing, and there has been a legitimate concern by people like MacArthur about easy-believism, where all you have to do is raise your hand, or say a little formula, and then you are saved, no matter if the life shows evidence or not, and many may be deceived if the gospel is not presented correctly. When some leader reaches this pinnacle of popularity,--then, yes, we have to be like the Bereans and scrutinize this guy. If he passes the tests of scripture--then fine! But it is amazing at the different kind of emotions that this guy produces in different sections of the Christian spectrum'
Stan |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 275
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 2:03 pm: | |
OK.
As for me, that is my last word on this subject. It has made me tired and irritable. I need a nap.
Bob |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1561
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 4:03 pm: | |
Since leaving Adventism, the only book, besides the ones written by x SDA ministers, I have read is the Bible. So I did not chime in with anything on this talk about Warren. I do have some Christian books I want to read, when I am more grounded in the Bible. I read all the posts above, but could not give an opinion.
God wants me well grounded in the Bible. He is awesome.
Diana |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 256
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 6:36 pm: | |
My personal reaction is that PDL is a tool that can be used or mis-used by a congregation. I don't know that the mis-use means that the tool doesn't have value. Our personal experience with churches locally that were heavily into the PDL/PDC movement was not positive. OTOH, people that I have considerable respect for have proclaimed that they were greatly blessed by the book. I will share one interesting quote I came across regarding PDL
quote:From a theological perspective, The Purpose Driven Life fails more in what is not said, than in what is. Key doctrines are sometimes altogether ignored,
explained incompletely, or discussed without adequate scriptural support. The gospel, for example, is presented without mention of repentance, the reason Jesus died on the cross, or the eternal consequences of sin. Instead, the reader is simply asked to ìwhisper the prayer that will change your eternity: ëJesus, I believe in you and I receive youíî (p. 58). Warren continues by writing, ìIf you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of Godî (p. 59). His definition of the ìGood Newsî later in the book goes no deeperóemphasizing the benefits of grace without explaining manís desperate condition or Godís command to repent (see pp. 294-95). Other doctrines are given similar treatment. Godís love is emphasized, while Godís wrath is conspicuously absent (on page 294 Warren writes, ìGod never made a person He didnít loveî). http://www.biblebb.com/files/pdl.htm
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 341
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:47 pm: | |
Ric,
I saw that quote on some other site also. It is because of statements like that, I am troubled. I have not been to his Sunday AM services, but from what I am told, you get more feelgoodism, than any expositional preaching like you get at the mega-church up the freeway (Chuck Smith). Maybe someone can correct the impression i am getting, if they indeed do attend his services.
Bob, Have a good nap! I hope to meet you Fri. night at the FAF Bible study. I promise I won't talk about Rick Warren! Those Bible studies are really positive experiences, and I find that the drive on the 91 freeway is worth it.
Stan |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 257
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:05 pm: | |
I am convinced that our experience with an extra-Biblical author probably makes us more sensitive (or overly sensitive--depending on your point of view) when we see someone's writings put forward in a very strong way. I'm not placing any judgment on Rick Warren, his motives, or his methods. I have seen the book used by people with great benefit. I have also seen the book used in ways that I am not comfortable with. But I don't think misuse of the tool automatically means that tool is flawed. I've read enough sections of the book standing in the bookstore to conclude it isn't my type of book. But, thankfully, everyone isn't me! |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 899
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 7:31 am: | |
I'm troubled when we say popularity means questionable. Chuck Swindoll is popular, as is David Jeremiah...they write books. Then there's Michael W. Smith, who has had some secular popularity as well as Christian popularity. It troubles me to base doubt on popularity. I could take or leave PDL, as I've said. But I also know how the media can twist and spin things. People can take a snippit out of a conversation and really make anything sound heretical. The purpose of PDL is not to make us feel bad for our depravity, from what I've read in it, it is to help people become involved in the body of Christ, that God has a purpose for us. It's hard to feel worthy to do something for Christ if all you focus on is our depravity. Regardless of my stance as a human, in Christ, I am righteous. It's hard to feel good about myself if I only focus upon how rotten I am without Christ. I am not without Christ, and he found me worthy enough to die for. I know what I was, and who I am without Christ. But since I am now in Christ, I'm changed...given righteousness. Now I want to live as one righteous, not depraved. All that to say, it doesn't both me that PDL does not focus upon my depravity. I know we had long conversations in my small group about that, but that doesn't mean we live to that level...we live to the level of Christ. Not that we can achieve it on our own, but that doesn't mean we don't try. |
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