| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 328 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, I really appreciate your research, and your fairness. you have always been a person of integrity, as long as I have seen your posting. In most points we agree. I also agree with you on MacArthur's teaching. I like his expository approach, I just don't agree with his dispensational bias, but he is right on in his books, when he talks about the compromise of the church today in trying to look good in the eyes of the world. Those examples you gave above of Warren's use of scripture do raise important questions. This method of using paraphrases to make a point in the manner you describe is not completely honest. I will not judge his motives, and again, if this book truly has been instrumental in bringing people to Christ, then I am happy. As far as reading his book, I just found it to pale in comparison to the great Christian classics such as "Knowing God", by J.I. Packer, and so many other books. Some books just have the "ring of truth", but even though the book is not heretical as such, I just could not figure out why it was a #1 best seller on the New York Times list. Stan | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 227 Registered: 5-2004 |
I have to agree regarding the "sloppiness" of the use of scripture. Maybe itís just that Iím extra sensitive to it because of realizing how scripture was twisted in Adventism. For this reason though I no longer like devotional books. Here at work a coworker keeps an Oswald Chambers (My Utmost for His Highest) daily calendar which features a devotional thought. I find that more often than not, though the thought is a good thought I am annoyed by the misuse of the passages to support the thought when contextually, the passages are not considered. Curiously, this whole topic is one I contemplate lately. In my transition to viewing Scripture as Divinely Inspired I realize that Jesus would quote mere words from a passage to validate His point. Obviously, He ultimately is the Word, and therefore knows its perfect use. But even Paul pulled from various texts knowing that Jesus was the fulfillment of them. However, I still have a really hard time now with not getting skeptical when passages are used out of context. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 266 Registered: 7-2000  |
Riverfonz, we need to keep in mind that much of society today is post-Christian, and abysmally ignorant of the most basic teachings of God's Word, or of Christianity. Those of us who know a lot more, by virtue of our past academic and religious affiliations, may find some of these popular materials very elementary and unchallenging. However, many of the books that appeal to you and me would be difficult for one who does not have a Biblical and Christian background. A contemporary philosopher once said, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you will tend to treat every problem as if it were a nail." We need to use appropriate "tools" to reach and teach the lost and the Biblically illiterate. The lost and spiritually immature need "special handling." I thank God for people like Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, for my own pastor - Barry McMurtrie, and for others who recognize this fact, and devote themselves to meeting that particular need. I believe God has called some to this special work of reaching out to, educating and shepherding the secular, unchurched around us. Bob | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-2004 |
Let me weigh in again on this issue. When bringing up the book by John McArthur, my orignal thought was that within the mainstream church there is a tendency to mimic what works. Church leaders stream to leadership training seminars about how to make their church work better, reverse declining enrollment, or reach the unreached. Warren, Hybels, and others may have had some success, but when the bottom line is examined, when a church or denomination try to mimic what someone else is doing, only because it is working, lessens the effectiveness (sort of like the movie Multiplicity with Michael Keaton - He clones himself and then as the clones clone themselves their is more and more room for error). Jim Cymbala has said that many people come to the Brooklyn Tabernacle to find out how they have such a great choir and effective ministry. These visitors are amazed that the reason the choir is so outstanding is not because of the hours they practice. Jim says that Carol and choir have prayer meeting for most of their rehersal time and then practice as they have time left. It isn't about the system but the substance. Adventist churches have seen a tremendous declines in enrollment. People are not flocking to the "truth". The parishoners are either more discriminating or sophistacated so the techniques or retaining membership have changed. Churches stand half or more empty. The average age of the church is rising (this is an anectdotal observation) There is great concern about losiing tithe base and membership. Pastors are heading to Hybels Willowcreek program training to see if they can stem the tide by changing the programming. We know that that isn't it. It is Jesus. Over and over again the scriptures tell us if He is lifted up, He will draw all to Himself. Adventist just don't seem to get that. Megachurch or Housechurch, it seems to me that the common theme that should be the center of each one is Jesus. Not the pastor, or the denomination, but Jesus and Him crucified. I guess that is what concerns me somewhat about Rick Warren. In the press, he has become larger than the message of the Gospel (Again, in the press.) Whereas people like Chuck Smith and Bill Hybels have megachurches but not many outside the faith know about them. Fame is not a precursor to being cast into hell, but for a lot in the world, Rick Warren is the author of PDL not a minister of the Gospel. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 267 Registered: 7-2000 |
But do you know for a fact that that is what Rick Warren wants in his own heart? Or is it because he happens to have a bestseller, and is therefore in the press a lot? Let's not judge and condemn the man's motives because his book struck a responsive chord with a lot of people. I agree with you, however, that copying "techniques" without making Jesus central to the message, is futile. Bob Bob | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 268 Registered: 7-2000 |
Friends, I apologize if I seem overly defensive on this matter. It just seems to me that we former SDAs often get so caught up in finding fault with others and their views that we ourselves are in danger of harboring a sinful critical spirit! I admit personally that this faultfinding mindset has been a besetting sin of mine. I think my years in Adventism helped "cultivate" it, but the Lord has been showing me that He wants to remove this from my life. Bob | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 93 Registered: 12-2004 |
I hear what you are saying Bob. The urge to criticize without "walking a mile" or studying through things is, I think, the 29th fundemental belief. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 136 Registered: 1-2003  |
Bob thanks for your comments. I cry out in my spirit sometimes, "Oh Lord why are we so critical and take such joy in finding fault in others? Oh Lord Jesus give me a heart that is breaking and eyes that are filled with tears as I prayer for the deliverance of those in bondage. Give each of us new spiritual eyes to discern the things that come from you and to turn from that which is of human invention. Jesus give me a spirit that points others to you and not back to the darkness of a life without your Spirit living in us. Amen" I'm still a member officially of the SDA church and over the past 15 years God has patiently been leading me on a gentle yet at times spectacular journey. I attend various churches at different times. I attend one small home fellowship which is connected to a charismatic church. I'm involved in the prayer ministry at my own church and several times a year at a Four Square Gospel Church. I attend a mens group at a Calvary Chapel Church. In each of these fellowships God has opened up new and fresh understanding of His awesome gift to each of us . . . Eternal Life through the death of His Son. I'm not at all of them every week but God has lead me to specific people and specific ministries where he can use me to minister and be ministered to. We serve an awesome God. Going back to what triggered this post is my feeling that I will never align myself with a group that takes delight in being critical. I realize that we must be discerning in our walk but I see so many that delight in being critical of others. We need to speak truth rather than dwell in error. Speaking truth will convict by the very comparision to darkness. We do not convince others by our arguments but by our prayers and the convicting work of the Holy Spirit. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com These comments are not aimed at the current discussion of PDL in anyway.  "for REAL ! !" as my students would say. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2027 Registered: 12-2003  |
Having never read PDL, I cannot comment at all. I do know, however, that the book was a turning point for a woman I know whose husband considered himself to be a former Adventist while she herself was still SDA. Her husband would attend church with her on Sabbath, and he had also begun attending a Christian church on Sunday. When the wife's SDA church did PDL, the two of them did the lessons together over coffee every morning. That study lit a spark in that woman, and partly because of that spark and partly becuase of some other concurrent events, she has left the SDA church and has discovered Jesus. The point about some books being for immature christians and others being for people much more grounded in the Word is valid. Esther, Oswals Chambers' "MY Utmost For His Highest" was not written as a devotional. He used to teach at a Bible college, and before he died in his early 40s, he was a chaplain for soldiers stationed in Egypt, I believe. His widow, a professional stenographer, compiled all his sermon and lessons and posthumously published them. My Utmost For His Highest is the only one of the resulting books that is a devotional, but it is composed of excerpts from various other of his books/talks. If one actually reads Chambers' own words on any given day's page, the message is profound. I've often thought the text seemed vague in connection with the entries, but I don't actually know what that text might have looked like in the original application. I do know that this particular book has had a profound impact on me and on my understanding of how God actually works in our lives. Chambers was a very mature Christian who understood the implications of the Holy Spirit functioning withing a human's personality and mind and psyche. Everyone's different and responds to different authors, etc., but I've never read any one author who so helped me understand the total necessity of surrender and of waiting for God, of allowing Him to bring and perform His will in my life, instead of plunging ahead with what I thought I should do. Praise God for how He reveals Himself to each of us in different ways! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 893 Registered: 7-2003  |
Bob, I also appreciate your point. I had dinner with a friend last night who is very negative towards a local pastor who is getting a lot of press these days for his public stand against certain societal issues. She feels he is only interested in using these issue towards his popularity, but I think he is genuinely trying to be a voice against some of the social ills he sees. Wealth, popularity, etc hardly prove ill motives. God chooses to bless some people, in my opinion, because it reaches a certain type of person. While that same personality style would not reach others. Maybe I'm trying to be too accommodating. I don't know. But I am reminded of Paul's words: 1 Corinthians 9:19 - 23 "For being free of all, I enslaved myself to all, that I might gain the more. And I became as a Jew to the Jews, that I might gain Jews; to those under Law as under Law, that I might gain those under Law; to those without Law as without Law (not being without Law of God, but under the law of Christ), that I might gain those without Law. I became to the weak as weak, that I might gain the weak. To all I have become all things, that in any and every way I might save some. And I do this for the gospel, that I might become a fellow partaker of it. " | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 270 Registered: 7-2000 |
A passage that the Spirit of God has been pointing me to is 1 Peter 2:21-23: 21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22 Who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously. . ." Bob | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 271 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, I would encourage you to read The Purpose-Driven Life and draw your own conclusions. I had a negative attitude toward the book a few years ago, just because it was so massively popular. But when I read it, it ministered to me in many ways, and I saw it do the same for many other people! Bob | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 228 Registered: 5-2004 |
Colleen, I wasn't trying to be critical of Chambers writtings as I haven't read them, but have heard many good things. I guess i wasn't clear that what I was refering too was a desk calendar, that takes half a verse and applies two sentances in thoughts to it. Not that the thoughts are bad, but in support of what Chris was saying, when you look at the verse it doesn't always support what it's given as support of. This is just something I've gotten a bit sensitive of I guess. However, I suppose many christian authors are guilty of this, I find a wealth of information and inspiration from many authors. I guess I was just making an observation | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 72 Registered: 3-2005 |
It was the "40 Days" series that brought my mom out of her SDA Church and into ours. She hasn't offically left (she's 84) and I don't know if she will. She attends with us every week, and she wants to become a member of our Church. That series opened her eyes to what true Christianity is all about. She finally understood the JOY and PEACE we have found. She is quite a scholar and loves to study. She knows Latin, and some Greek and Hebrew. She reads voraciously (or did in the past), has conversed with many theologians, both in and out of the SDA Church and has always taken a slightly different path within SDAism. But I think this "simple", straight-forward, "non-theologically deep" series is what got her really thinking about what really matters, and where our priorities should be - on Jesus Christ and God's will for our lives. So - despite all our discussion, differences of opinion, and my new awareness of some problems with the Bible text usage, I still believe it has done good. Again, I think it all comes down to how it is being used, what the intentions are for using it. And, whatever Rick Warren's motives are, it is our own motives that ultimately matter to our growth. Our we keeping our eyes on Jesus rather than man? Do we allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us? Will we follow God's leading? Are we submitting ourselves to HIM? That's what I want for my life. And SOMETIMES I even succeed! -tisha | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 320 Registered: 3-2004  |
Goldenbear, you bring out an important point when you mention Brooklyn Tab and the fact that prayer is the foundation to their ministry, not programs. I've been attending a daughter church of theirs in my area. One thing that so impressed me the first time I visited when I opened the bulletin was the amount of time they spend praying: Monday, 2 times of intercessory prayer; Tuesday once; Wednesday prayer meeting; Thursday twice; Friday night choir practice, which is based on prayer as you pointed out. I've been to one prayer meeting and there was over 100 there. This church is full of 20 and 30 somethings who are on fire for Jesus. And they utilize various choir numbers to have church members introduce the numbers with their personal testimony--even fairly baby Christians. This gives a whole new meaning to "overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony." Personally, if I ever heard a sermon that was criticizing another ministry or a book, I would run fast! Just uplift Jesus. Praise God... | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 332 Registered: 3-2005 |
I appreciate everyone's thoughts above. If people are brought to Christ by this book, and, as Colleen said about it being instrumental inbringing someone out of Adventism, then I guess I have to apologize for criticizing it. Having said that, It is when, as Goldenbear says, that Rick Warren becomes the man that is bigger than the gospel, then there is concern. Goldenbear is exactly right about Bill Hybels (I didn't intend to be critical of him ), and Chuck Smith. These men have tried to keep themselves out of the limelight. It is when Christians get together to study this book, rather than get into the meat of the Word of God, then there is concern. I know where this has actually happened--They get together to study Purpose Driven Life, and get used to the sloppy use of scripture and paraphrases that Chris pointed out. We are in a "fast food" Christian culture. We have our top 40 Christian radio stations, playing the same songs over and over such as KSGN in our area--Most of these are not even praise and worship songs which I love, but many of these songs have no spiritual depth at all--Do not get me wrong!--I love upbeat Praise and Worship! But I am talking about a Christian culture who has lost their love for truly getting into the Word of God. Bob, I agree with you in a sense, that everone is at a different point in their Christian walk, and we need to guard our critical spirit--I am guilty of what you say at times--but discernment is also necessary. Books by authors such as Oswald Chambers, and "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer are not difficult to read, even for the young Christian like me, 20 years ago, but these books, and so many others use scripture correctly, and in context, instead of so many popular Christian books today. This is a stimulating discussion, and I appreciate everyone's contribution. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 477 Registered: 7-2004 |
Stan, I think I stand with you to a degree. Last year my church did the PDL all together in small groups. I also know someone who had fallen away from church membership, then bought PDL and would faithfully read and absorb one chapter at a time. He read one chapter a week rather than one a day, so it took him a while to get all the way through, but he tends to face the world as all black and all white. He would try to apply the topics to his life one at a time, and made the "doing" of the gospel his goal. That means that every week he had another rule to apply to his life. For me, that was just too reminiscent of SDAism and it really frightened me to see him turn practical Christianity into a set of rules. What I'm driving at is that some things that are good for one person, may not be as good for another. While we were studying the book in our small groups all together last fall, this same person was more likely to apply rules and tangentalize if he got the chance. It created more distraction than harmony in that context. Belva | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 333 Registered: 3-2005 |
I must also point out, in fairness, that a truly great book has come from someone who at first attended Willow Creek, and then attended Saddleback. That is Lee Stroebel, who wrote a true classic, "The Case for Christ"--Now that is an example of a book that reads like a novel, but is researched so well, and truly has brought many to Christ. It could be that someone whose first book is PDL, then would be introduced to this book, because of the associated ministriew. In Orange County, where I live, Rick Warren has been elevated to an almost god like figure. That is what is scary. This putting any Christian leader on a pedestal--no matter how good his teaching--is dangerous. But this can be said for Chuck Smith also, or any other fine Christian leader. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2033 Registered: 12-2003 |
Esther, I didn't mean to sound chastising. You're right about the calendar--things really are out of context there! I'm also really sensitive to using Scripture out of context. Bob--good advice. I know that Richard's men's Bible study is going through the book now; he doesn't say much about what happens in that group, but I have gathered that it has stimulated some good, insightful discussions. Colleen | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi Everyone, My life has been going at Warp Speed the last several months and I don't think I've posted since about Jan or Feb. I've read the forum from time to time so I haven't completely lost track of what is happening. This evening I have a few minutes and I found this discussion interesting. Two years ago our church did the 40 day PDL series to kick-off our small groups. Our church is only 4 years old. I agree that PDL is not very deep and Warren could have been more careful with Scripture. On the other hand, and I may be wrong here, I have the impression that his purpose in writing PDL was to lay out an easy to understand approach to spiritual growth for people who are already Christians. I think that it has been quite well established by Christian researchers like George Barna that American Christians are in desperate need of basic renewal. I think PDL fills a definite niche for those Christians who are not used to the "meat" of the faith. Hopefully, it will encourage many to dig deeper. I know that when our small group went through it, some of us found it quite basic, but others appeared to be stimulated into new thinking. I agree with the several of you that express concern regarding the potential for Christian leaders who become well-known, to yield to the temptation of thinking themselves more important than they are. This has always been the case. Whether this is happening to Warren, I don't know. We can pray for him. On a side-note, I'm going to post a prayer request for me and my family. Grace to all, Dane |
