| Author | Message | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 67 Registered: 3-2005 |
We used the "Purpose Driven Life" series at our Church last year and I must say it really challenged us to live for Christ. Our small group used the extended lessons for study and they really are a great way to strengthen our Christian walk. He uses so many Bible quotes to support what he is saying, and it just brings the Bible so alive for me! I would highly recommend this series. With that said, I don't believe that this would make any Church basically different than what it is already. I mean, the SDA's could use it, but it would just mean they would use different language and "methods", but wouldn't change anything about their doctrine. I think used correctly, it may enhance our experience or understanding but it would change the basic core beliefs of a denomination (unless they were honestlly looking to change). I've heard of one SDA Church that used the "Purpose Driven Life" curriculum, but changed the format and sort of glossed over it. The person that told me about it said that it didn't do anything for her. So, I think you get out of it what you put into it. If it is just used for a slick sell for your Church, it won't work. But when used to strenghten our faith in Jesus Christ and to build up the body of Christ's Church, then I think it is a good presentation. But there are many ways to accomplish this! Just my opinion! -tisha | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 261 Registered: 7-2000  |
Chris and Tisha, Amen to what both of you have said. Methods and tools and cultural approaches may (and MUST!) change, but the Gospel and the Word of God do not change. When my church did the "Purpose-Driven Life" series, it resulted in many first-time conversions to Christ, and many who came back to a more full commitment to Him. Presently, my church is conducting an Alpha series. Ours is the largest Alpha known so far - more than 1300 people are participating! We have had a number of baptisms already as a result of Alpha, and we are only a few weeks into it. On Saturday, more than 800 people came to an all-day Bible study on the Holy Spirit, His work, and how to experience His fullness. On Sunday we had 18 baptisms, and on Sunday evening, about ten more people gave their lives to Christ. Bob | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 323 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bob, My wife and I also go to a mega-church, Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pastored by Chuck Smith. It is one of the largest churches in the world. I am sure Crossroads is a fine church also. My point was that Chuck Smith built his ministry on verse by verse Bible teaching of the whole Bible, without any of the slick marketing techniques which Rick Warren uses at Saddleback. Also Goldenbear above mentioned John McArthur in a post above. Read what he says again as quoted by Goldenbear, "Churches have become Showtime--Marketing techniques are being used instead of depending on the sovereignty of God". John Mcarthur is one of the biggest critics of this whole movement. There have been other thoughtful analyses of Rick Warren's book by responsible theologians, as you can find on www.whitehorseinn.org. Chris, I am glad God has used Rick Warren's book in helping with your ministry. But, I do have to ask, How did this book become a #1 bestseller? This book appeals to mormons and many other non-Christian groups, because it is basically a self-help book. Is the offense of the Cross a prominent part of this book? Can you find any doctrine of hell? I think he sugarcoats that doctrine. If that book were truly presenting Christ and Him crucified, with a true message of judgment to a perishing world, I doubt it would be a number 1 best seller. Robert Schuller has also built a ministry in Orange County, by de-emphasizing the true doctrines of the faith, and preaching self help pop psychology instead. God is very gracious, and He does use all kinds of ways to bring people to himself. But the Apostle Paul's gospel is not what Rick Warren is preaching in his book, however good it may be. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 800 Registered: 7-2003  |
Stan, I assume you have read have read Warren's book. If so then you know that he makes it plain in the first couple of chapters of PDL that what we do with Christ (i.e. putting our faith in Him) determines where we spend eternity and that those who reject Christ will be eternally seperated from God. He also goes on to make the point that once we receive Christ what we do in this life has eternal implications in terms of reward. The exposition of Hell in this book is not on the level of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", but then the book is not specifically about Hell, it is about how to live out the purposes that Christ created His Church for. In doing so the book makes it quite clear that it's not about us, it's all about serving Christ and bringing glory to Him. Again, you have not produced any quotes from Warren showing where he preaches a different gospel from the Apostle Paul. That is indeed a very serious charge, Stan. Please substantiate your charge with a direct quote from Warren. Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 324 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, If I said a different gospel, then my apologies. I just don't believe it is the whole gospel the way, say a John McArthur, and so many others. When I read the book, I get the impression he uses texts out of context. It has been a long time since I read it, but I know there are some very questionable uses of scripture, that at this time, I can't give you specific quotes. My main point of posting is responding to an earlier post where John McArthur was expressing his concerns. I just don't agree with the methods he is using, but I do believe he is a Christian. There have been legitamate concerns raised about his methods, that when I get time, I could outline. But Chris, I really did not mean to pick an argument over this, I was just expressing my agreement with Goldenbear's earlier post. Stan | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 68 Registered: 3-2005 |
I guess I see the use of "The Purpose Driven Life" series as targeting those already saved Christians who want to understand more fully what living if Christ means to their lives. It reaffirms the importance of the body of Christ's Church. It helps me focus on what it means to live as a Christian, and understand that the focus is on what God wants for my life rather than on my own wishes. It reaffirmed for me the importance of being part of the Church body and supporting each other in our Christian walk. I didn't view this a series for "seekers", spelling out the plan of Salvation in detail, although I know it has brought many to Christ. I think it is really targeting those who are Believers, who already know the basics, and want a closer walk with Jesus. This is for those wishing to align their lives with GOD'S purpose for them. It takes that original committment to Christ and goes from there, teaching just how to go about really LIVING for Christ, and supporting other Believers to do the same. Every point being made is supported by the Bible. I suppose the principles could be used by non-christian groups, but how would they be able to align with God's purpose if they do not know Christ? Why would they believe what the Bible says, if they don't believe the Bible is inspired? There is nothing wrong with "self-help" if that help comes from my "self" turning to Jesus for that help. As with all "packaged" material, it is how it is being used that makes the difference. It can be used as a superficial tool to be part of the show, or it can be used prayerfully to grow in Christ. The intentions and motives of the Church and climate it is being presented in can make all the difference. I value our diverse opinions, so please don't take this as being negative. I am just putting out my own experience! We go to a small Church, and don't use much "show". We thought long and hard about using this prepackaged series. We prayed together about it. I think we used it as an opportunity to recommit our lives to Christ and to each other as fellow Believers. I think we have a wonderful, supportive, Christ-centered Church body, and this only made it more so. We continue to grow together, and also to reach out to our community. At our small group we have several new believers, and it is so heartwarming to see them come alive in Christ, and to see them really understand just what the body of Believers is all about. It's about God's will in our lives, about service to each other, to building up the universal Church body of Believers, and to reaching out to those not yet saved. I guess I'm passionate about this! Stan, I'd like to read more about this at that Whitehorse website, but couldn't find that specific information. Will you please tell me where to find it after I go to the Whitehorse home page? Thanks. -tisha | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 325 Registered: 3-2005 |
Tisha, I praise the Lord for your testimony above, and I guess I probably shouldn't judge too harshly. I agree with you, that if it is used by Christians to make you grow in grace, then more power to you. My problem comes in that if this book was supposed to be an evangelistic tool, then, why is it embraced by all the other false religions? When Paul's gospel was proclaimed, he sure wasn't the popular guy, that everyone wanted to buy his message? No, he says the cross of Christ is a stumbling block, and is an offence. This is why, Chris, I am puzzled by this book's success. I am just asking questions of you as well. I don't have all the answers. Tisha, if you go to that web site I mentioned, they publish a magazine called "Modern Reformation", and they have a featured article with an Interview of Rick Warren, and an analysis. I am sorry I don't have time to find the exact link. Stan | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 801 Registered: 7-2003 |
Well here's a point in this discussion where we can agree. While I think that Warren's book is theologically orthodox and Christ centered, I do not particularly like the rather free way texts are used. While I think he outlines legitimate functions within the Body of Christ (evagelism, discipleship, fellowship, etc.) that are ultimately supported by scripture, I frequently do not agree with which texts he chooses to make his point or how. I am not against dynamic (or thought for thought) translations like the NIV or even NLT. I even think there may be some place for paraphrases (though I don't personally care for them or use them myself). However, I think we need to be very careful in how we use them (especially paraphrases). I think it's perfectly legitimate to choose to quote a translation that is especially clear in making the same point that was in the original language. However, if the wording and the context of a particular text does not fit a point we want to make, it is illegitimate to run to a paraphrased text which can more easily be removed from it's context to make our point. Rather, we should use a passage of scripture that clearly teaches the point we wish to make or else question if our point is truly Biblical. I think Warren is orthodox, I think he presents the Gospel in a clear simple way, I just think his exegesis is a bit amateurish. But then again, I've heard many people criticize Billy Graham for the same thing. Chris P.S. In compliance with my own insistence on objective proof/quotes, if anyone would like examples of texts that seem to be out of their original context, upon request I'll do the research tonight when I'm home. But I do think I know what Stan means with this particular critique of PDL. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 802 Registered: 7-2003 |
Stan, I just saw your post (#325). You must have posted while I was writing the last one. In terms of the books popularity, I don't think that alone makes a thing good or bad in and of itself. I want to be VERY careful here because I do NOT want to draw any direct comparisons here that would seem to elevate PDL past what it is (it's just some guys book like any other human book). Having said that, consider the Bible. The Bible is still the world's all time best selling book. It's very popular. A dozen different additions can be found in most decent size book stores and libraries and hundreds of additions on Amazon.com. The Bible is read and quoted by Mormons, JWs, Christian Scientist, and even secular people. None of these realities make the Bible bad. PDL certainly isn't the Bible and I worry greatly that someone might think I'm putting this book up on a pinacle. I'm not. In fact I'm not even sure it's a particularly great book, just an okay book that can be a useful read for some. I just don't think it's popularity automatically discredits it. I have a hard time seeing what non-Christians would get out of PDL. It makes it clear in the beginning that before going any farther you need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The rest of the book is spent talking about how those who are in Christ are supposed to function as a part of Christ's Body. Everything is in the context of "it's not about you" it's about Christ, His Church, and the commands He's given through the Bible for His church to fulfill. I can't imagine a non-Christian seeing anything in this book unless they somehow allegorized the repeated references to Christ and His Church. I'm sure the so-called "Christian" cults simply see everything they read through the lenses of their particular prophet. Chris P.S. I also tried to find the material you mentioned on White Horse Inn, because I like to research these things, be well informed, and also receive correction when I need it. Unfortunately, I didn't have any luck locating it. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 70 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks, Stan - I found the article (Interview). However, it cannot access it. Do I need to actually get the magazine to see that? I'll keep looking though. Chris, thanks for the offer to find the texts that are used out of context! I will take a look at that. If you want to post some examples that's fine, but I can look them up myself if you don't have time for that. This is really a thought provoking thread, and I thank everyone for the dialogue. I too want to use texts in context, and I am wary of paraphrases. We did acknowlege that the many translations used might not have been the best way to present the information. So I will be doing some studying! I think our Church benefitted from doing this series, but I also want to be aware of those out of context quotes. -tisha | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 326 Registered: 3-2005 |
Tisha, Unfortunately you do have to get the magazine. I have local access with a church that has copies available. Chris, It looks like we might be in basic agreement on the use of scripture. But what about MacArthur's critique, that the American church is resorting to slick marketing techniques, (which many believe Warren is doing), rather than the faithful proclamation of the plain teaching of scripture. Large churches such as MacArthur's and Chuck Smith's have been built by the Lord, on the uncompromising verse by verse teaching of scripture. Also I wonder about this use of slick American techniques in the context of world missions. My bottom line is, I rejoice when Christ is preached, and when people are brought into His kingdom, and if it is by methods, that my finite mind cannot understand, then so be it. But, I do believe it is fair to question these methods, and as Tisha said to have this dialogue. Thanks, Stan | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 142 Registered: 6-2001 |
Usally when someone uses slick marketing techniques, they just aren't highlighting the most attractive parts, they are also concealing the less attractive parts. For instance a salesman selling a used car will emphasize the great deal! and the great paint job! and not mention at all or even lie about the fact that the engine is on its last piston and the front tires are on their last tread. I think "final events" can be considered slick marketing by this definition since they emphasized the certainty of their beliefs and they completely neglected to mention 1. those beliefs were uniquely Adventist and 2. making it through the tribulation will require some sabbath-keeping. In contrast "purpose-driven life" is not supposed to be a comprehensive book on the doctrines of the church or on the abcs of salvation. I don't believe warren concealed any Christian truths in his book. About seeker sensitivity. If you want your church to be a "museum for saints" (as I think Bob said a while back) then by all means don't encourage those seekers! If you want your church to be a "hospital for sinners" then you need to do what you can to find those people and make them welcome! Would a fitness club only send out brochures with pictures of muscle-bound athletes lifting the heaviest weights and sprinting down the treadmill? How many people would sign up if they knew every time they went they would be surrounded by people like that? God never said Christians are to be known by this or that doctrine but by their love. My last church, a Willow Creek church, had as its motto "Come as you are and you will be loved. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 803 Registered: 7-2003 |
John McArthur has a VERY nice looking wesite http://www.gty.org/. His books have very nice slick looking covers with beautiful pictures. His books and commentary series are well advertised on Christianbook.com, Christian radio, and his website. He uses a variety of media to reach people including: print books for sale, e-books for sale in a variety of formats for all the top Bible software (quite expensive too), mp3 files for sale, CDs for sale, a website with an online store, and a radio program. All of this is fine with me. John McArthur is getting the word out in a variety of ways. He is marketing his materials and putting the funds back into reaching more people. I applaud Dr. McArthur for doing this. I can't see anything wrong with it at all AS LONG AS he remains true to the Gospel Message and profit never becomes the motive, but remains the means of getting the Word out. I'm not sure what methods Warren is using that are dramatically different than McArthur's in terms of "marketing", but the same thing applies: I don't see anything wrong with using the media available to you to spread the Gospel AS LONG AS you remain true to the Gospel Message and profit never becomes the motive, but remains the means of getting the Word out. I really can't speak to preaching styles because I have never been to Saddleback to hear Warren preach a sermon. I have listend to John MacArthur and really greatly appreciate his expository style (my favored form of preaching). However, I am not a dispensationalist and find much to disagree with in some of MacArthurs dispensational exegesis. Of course that's nothing to divide over, just a difference in interpretation on some non-essential points. I may think MacArthur is wrong on some points, but I'm glad he is faithfully preaching Christ from the Word. Chris | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 318 Registered: 3-2004  |
A few weeks ago I caught a little bit of a John MacArthur broadcast. I forget exactly what his topic was, but he was being extremely critical of the way other Christians viewed a particular topic. It most certainly wasn't a salvific issue. After hearing so many years of Adventism claiming their way was the only way, it touched a raw nerve with me so I turned off the radio. It's not that I always disagree with him, but I'm more likely to listen to you if you preach truth than if you condemn error in other churches. I was in a small group that did PDL. For us, we found we needed to dig deeper because this was a mature group of Christians, all of whom are ministering to others. There were people in the group who had issues with his use of scripture. Our entire group would look up the texts in the back of the book and write it beside the text. It was just our personal obsessions, I guess that we wanted to know where he was quoting! (I'm the only former so it wasn't that.) We found ourselves looking for the positives about the book for the pew sitters, rather than condemning a book that has brought many to the Lord. Praise God... | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 804 Registered: 7-2003 |
I agree Praisegod. I don't think PDL was intended for the mature Christian that is already deeply in the Word daily, who is already proclaiming the Word to others, who is already deeply connected to other believers in the Body, who is already using their gifts to serve the Body and the world, who understands that praise, worship, and service aren't about us, they're all about God. The person who is already deeply involved in the Body in this way won't benfit much from PDL, there are better books out there for them. On the other hand, what percentage of the people that show up at church each Sunday really truly understand the purpose of the church and what it really means to being fulfilling Christ's purpose for His church? I suspect the percentage that can benefit from such a primmer is quite high. Chris | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 263 Registered: 7-2000 |
On this matter of using "marketing methods" to proclaim the Gospel, I highly recommend a book to all of you that last year won a Christian book award for excellence. It is "Permission Evangelism" by Michael Simpson. Simpson is a professional marketing expert who is a dedicated Christian. Although he primarily addresses personal evangelism in his book, it may cause you to think more positively about how we can and should use "marketing" to share the Gospel with a lost world. I just finished re-reading the book for the second time. Bob | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 892 Registered: 7-2003  |
When we went through the PDL at our church, I also found it "basic". I thought it would be a great discipleship tool for young Christians, but I'm not fond of "The Message" or some of the other more modern translations. I've matured in my Christian growth to the point of wanting to understand the greek and the nuances in meaning from the original. Having said that, if you gave me the greek I enjoy now 20 years ago, I'd have been completely lost. I have a friend who used to be the music minister at Saddleback, and therefore knows Rick Warren and his ministry personally. I won't go into third party conversations as that would move only towards gossip and how I remember it. I know they did not like California, and moved back here when his ministry there ended. But I do believe the church to be a truly orthodox Christian church, or my friend never would have gone there. Our church used PDL to get people off a complacent dead center, to being involved in the body of Christ...from personal growth to being involved in a ministry at church, to supporting ministeries abroad. For many, it changed their lives. We had a testimony weekend after the 40 days, and I was amazed at how going through this series changed people's lives...much as Experiencing God did in other years. Long after the words of the particular book fade, it's the impact of how it changed ones growth in Christ that lasts. I listened to the downlink at the beginning of the series, and was completely impressed with it, not being that into "programs". The book and study were not as indepth as I would have liked, but for the less mature and grounded in faith, it gave some great discussion points, and growth opportunities. | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 324 Registered: 2-2002  |
Bob, I'm so excited your church is doing Alpha. I've tried to plug it a number of times on the forum, but didn't seem as if anyone had ever heard of it. Our church is in the middle of probably their 4th or 5th presentation. We too have seen many unbelievers come to a saving knowledge of Christ through Alpha. I think it's an awesome program, and for anyone looking for a no-pressure, informal, down-to-earth presentation of the Gospel, check for an Alpha class in your area....its a wonderful way to introduce Christ to an unbeliever. Love you all, Carol P.S. By the way, my kidney stone "blasted" up beautifully....no problems at all. Boy, I feel like I'm getting old! Kidney stones, ugh. Thanks for all your prayers. | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 264 Registered: 7-2000 |
Carol_2, thank you for your encouragement. Many of our Alpha participants who are already Christians and members of the church have commented on how much Alpha is doing for them as well. We are getting to know each other on a more personal basis, share experiences and encourage each other in the Lord. Our church's plan is to conduct another new Alpha series in the fall, and to subsequently conduct two each year. Bob | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 805 Registered: 7-2003 |
Okay, I said I would try to find an example of contextual problems in PDL. I looked around in the book a little and came up with this one. There may be better examples with some searching.
So Warren is teaching that gossiping and listening to gossip are wrong. I think we all can agree with that this is true and that it is biblically supportable. In fact, in note #14 Warren backs up this teaching by listing no less than 5 texts from Proverbs, all of which seem to teach this thought reasonably well. So far so good. He then quotes Prov. 17:4 from the CEV ěTroublemakers listen to trouble makers.î This is a pretty loose translation, but it seems to deal with his subject reasonably well. Compare to a more literal translation:
Then, inexplicably Warren butts The Message paraphrase of Jude 1:19 up against Prov. 17:4 with nothing more than a text note to separate the two versus: ěThese are the ones who split churches, thinking only of themselves.î The problem here is that Jude 1:19 isnít dealing specifically with gossip. This passage is dealing with false brethren who have crept into the church, practice immorality, and deny essential Christian teachings. These are much more than gossips. Note v. 4:
Now that we know contextually who we are talking about, letís reread v. 19 from a more literal translation starting a few versus before for greater context:
So the people Jude is talking about in v. 19 are mockers, they are devoid of the Spirit. They arenít Christians that are engaging in gossip (as bad as that may be). They arenít even believers; they are mockers who are without the Spirit. This is a poor verse to use to teach on the subject of gossip. These false brethren may have engaged in gossip, but gossip as a subject is never specifically addressed in Jude. So why did Warren pick this verse, use a very loose paraphrase, and then to compound the error use only half the verse?! Even if he had stuck with The Message, but used the whole verse from The Message it would have been evident that it didnít contextually fit with the subject he was addressing. Hereís the whole verse in The Message:
This is just sloppy in my opinion. This probably sounds like Iím arguing both sides of discussion. To some degree thatís true. I have a real desire to be fair and balanced in critiquing a person or their work (I used to write online reviews for software and am used to trying to catalog both the good and the bad). My summary analysis of PDL is that it is a reasonably helpful, Christ centered book that can be valuable in training young Christian in discipleship and service in the Body of Christ. The material taught is orthodox and could be well supported from scripture by a careful writer, however Warrenís use of scripture is sometimes sloppy and one would do well to look up the references in a literal translation as well as reading the surrounding versus for context. Chris |
