| Author |
Message |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 386
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |     |
I would like to get your comments about this SDA kindergarten teacher's plight (log unto: http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/5927.html?1116041927).
Dennis J. Fischer |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 432
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 4:42 pm: | |
Dennis, we had a whole conversation, rather in depth really, all about this event. You can find it here: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/3037.html?1116040783 |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 299
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 7:13 pm: | |
Dennis, I would like your opinion on this article. Do you believe this teacher should have been fired? Stan |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 388
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 6:39 pm: | |
Stan,
The way the SDA administrators handled this situation actually made it look far worse for Adventist education than would have been necessary. They were so absolutist and legalistic in having their primary concern only for their church's image and not having any redemptive love toward the erring teacher. Certainly, taking away one's food, medical insurance, job, human dignity, etc. is not a Christian response to those who momentarily yield to Satan's enticement. This amounts to blatant public shunning and even career ruin. Will her personnel record perpetually reveal a moral lapse for her dismissal? Obviously, the parents and the children associated with her kindergarten classroom would wonder what happened to her.
Sadly, she has become disgraced worldwide thanks to the SDA administrators. How will their cold treatment affect her view of Christianity? How excited will her child be about churchanity when growing up with full knowledge of this public shunning? Could this trauma impact the baby's health and future well-being? Being a female employee made all the difference in the world in this case. For example, if her husband had been the teacher and he got her pregnant prior to marriage, it would have been very easy to hide his sin--like the "preemies" of many other SDA employees through the years.
I happen to know a well-known, former GC education director that served for more than twenty years in that capacity with high acclaim that also fathered his first child out of wedlock. It was only at his funeral at LLU (the printed obituary) that the truth became known. By the way, he was my wife's uncle and a building was named in his honor on a SDA college campus that stands to this day. He also served as president of several SDA colleges. Indeed, hypocrisy is a major issue here. Apparently, the pregnant teacher had no choice but to reveal her sin. History has repeatedly shown that it is never SAFE to confide in a SDA administrator about any problem or question in your life.
All in all, I am convinced that this pregnant teacher made the right decision to marry the father who was probably her fiance. This has created enough pain in her life without the added punishment and public ridicule from the SDA Church. Why not give spiritual guidance to this young couple so that life will be not only bearable but rather successful as well? Why not care about people and their salvation? Why make Christian living unobtainable or delayed in any way? Why not show compassion and forgiveness like Jesus did when on this earth? Why not bear one another's burdens? Is this really the unpardonable sin? In short, Stan, this mother-to-be should not have been fired in my opinion. Let's rescue those who fall and make them stronger than before.
His grace still amazes me,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 301
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 7:52 pm: | |
Dennis, Thanks for your reply. You said this so well. I agree with you, where is there any grace found in these Fundamentalist organizations such as SDA, and probably in many others? Stan |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 229
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 6:41 pm: | |
This occurrence saddens and sickens me.
The SDA church has done such a horrid job of equipping people to deal with the pressures of the world. My husband grew up in the SDA school system and NEVER had a sex education class. His parents (SDA teachers) NEVER had any talks with him about sex at all, let alone where sex fits into the life of the Christian. And he isnt the only one. I wnet to an SDA college, and only one of my SDA friends had ever had a sex ed class, and one other friend said her parents had "the talk" with her once.
They all just got this "sex is dirty and embarassing" impression. And subequently every single one of my SDA friends had sex before marriage and 2 had abortions behind their parents back.
Where is the education? Where is the accountability? Then, when the unsupported children of God fall, where is the GRACE???? Where is that love and grace that CHrist demanded of us?????
Needless to say I am saddened, sickened, and even incensed about this.
Messed up. It is MESSED UP!
I just want to put my arms around her and tell her about God's grace, show her God's love.
Shame on Christians who misrepresent Christ. That does so much more damage than the doubters ever do.
-t- |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 450
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:20 pm: | |
I am with you...she needs a hug from all of us! Is there anyway to find her and let her know she has many "friends" on FAF? I would love to tell her that her "sin" is no worse than my sin of impatience or self-centeredness or...the list goes on! I would also want to tell her that her baby is a miracle baby and that God's plans for her and her new family are grand. I pray that in some way she will hear the voice of her Savior telling her she is loved and that this time of turmoil will pass and she will see that all things do work for her good because of her love for God...He will NEVER forsake her. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 674
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:49 pm: | |
Dd,
I believe this is her: http://www.educ.andrews.edu/pdf/Christine%20John.pdf
Jeremy |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 94
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 2:40 am: | |
Thanks for that link, Jeremy. This is obviously a girl with an impressive history of leadership and service who loves working with kids. Any parent would be very proud of a child like that. What's going on now is a shame.
So does this mean that she will never be able to be employed in the SDA educational system because of one lapse in judgement?
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Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 453
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 9:30 am: | |
Thank you Jeremy,
I will see if I can contact her. My heart goes out as I have lived so many years worried about what others will think of me. It is so destructive. I believe she is in a better place than I was at her age because despite the pregnancy she is doing the right thing - it's the hard way (abortion would have been so much easier!) but I am very impressed that she has taken a stand even though she knew what the outcome could be. God will replace and redeem all of this in her life!
Give me Jesus! |
Marcell
Registered user
Username: Marcell
Post Number: 31
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:35 am: | |
Let me just add - I was pretty much 'instructed' by my then-pastor dad to get an abortion when I became pregnant out of wedlock. I guess it was better to committ murder than to, in his words, "Damage my witness". That action and the subsequent denial and depression that went along with it spun my life in a very terrible direction for a long time. It still reverberates through my family over 30 years later.
Shame on them. |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 230
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 12:00 pm: | |
perhaps it is a blessing in disguise for her to find other work. The SDA school system doesn't exactly have an exemplary record as far as how they treat their employees. I hope that she can move past the hurt, and that some true Christians will come along side her and show her what Christ's love is all about.
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Taybie
Registered user
Username: Taybie
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 9:44 am: | |
I really agree with you, Tealeaves. Look at the lot of us that have been removed from Adventism. Yes, we hurt and yes, there was/is even anger, but look at the reward...King Jesus Himself! The shift in her life was a consequence of doing things out of God's order and her choice was amplified by her employer/the church. However, she is free to question and search - for not only her and her husband's sake...but for their child. The key for those of us that understand hurt and/or embarassment is to keep her lifted in prayer. God is AWESOME!!
Shontay |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 140
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 11:29 am: | |
Here is a similar sort of problem with the same double standard -- only Catholics in this instance.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=BRF%20Pregnant%20Student%20Graduation |
Drpatti
Registered user
Username: Drpatti
Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 1:22 pm: | |
I heard about this on the news, Hannah. If I had been there, I would have given the girl a standing O. It would have been one thing if the boy who fathered the child had been likewise disciplined. But as it stands it was purely gender discrimination. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1532
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 1:49 pm: | |
I agree with you Drpatti and I am definitely not a feminist. But the girl is the one who is obviously pregnant, as seen when the fetus grows. The father does not have to go through those bodily changes.
Just my two cents or is it two sense worth
This brings me to a something I have thought a lot about. I cannot keep anyone from premarital sex, so what about teaching teenagers to use condoms. Adults should know how to use them also, to avoid pregnance and abortions. I no longer have a teenager in my house, so I do not worry about premarital sex from a parents point of view. I am concerned about how it affects the young people involved. I think this is something that should be taught by parents. I am not for the schools doing it. I am not for the schools handing out condoms and teaching how to use them. But realistically thinking, parents still neglect to teach their children about sex and how premarital sex can affect the person. Parents still do not know how to talk about sex to their children.
My parents did not teach me, so when I had my son, I was determined to teach him early about sex and pregnance. I got him age appropriate books and read them to him. I just had another "whoa" moment. God had me do that. So I started early with my son. I made my share of mistakes, but I did not make the same mistakes about not teaching him about sex with age appropriate books.
So, what do we do?? Do we let the teachers in the school teach about sex/condoms because the parents do not do their duty?
The ideal way is to teach them the love of God along with sexual responsibility. I am an idealist, I know, so I pray that God do what is best.
Diana |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 453
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 5:56 pm: | |
And even when we have taught our kids, or as my parents tried to do--scared our kids about the awesome responsibilities that come with sexual activity, even then people will still become pregnant. Our responsibility to those who have gotten things a little out of order is to love them. We who belong to Jesus are known by our love. Some will say they are using tough love on these girls, but I say that forgiveness, and allowing them to put the sin behind them now and go forward toward motherhood, with our support and love, is what God wants from us.
I know in one of my earlier posts I said that she should have kept her mouth shut and delivered a very healthy "premie." Living for a long time around SDAs has put that attitude in me. I learned to sneak and hide when I was around SDAs.
If a baby has been conceived it is because God has a plan for that little one to grow up into. We all need to get that through our thick skulls, and be happy that the teacher married her baby's father, and then just get over ourselves. |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 454
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 6:01 pm: | |
I just read the other story--Good girl! She earned that diploma, and if the baby's father could walk with his class, she should be able to walk with her class. He, the baby's father "sinned" as much as the girl carrying the baby did. Either remove them both, or GET OVER IT! and let them both walk. |
Drpatti
Registered user
Username: Drpatti
Post Number: 30
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 9:02 pm: | |
Why are sexual sins considered the "worst" sins that people can commit? |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 456
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 11:44 am: | |
I think we notice sexual sins more because we are all nosy, and it speaks to our prurient interests. It really is no different than stealing pens from the office, if you think about it, because all sin is "falling short of the glory of God."
Did we get into the habit of "grading" sins when mankind thought up the "seven deadly sins?" |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1535
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 3:10 pm: | |
It seems to me that sexual sins are worse because they are visible, especially for the female. Then, some religious organizations, I am not pointing just at SDAs, move there ministers to another place when he is sexually active outside of marriage, or is a child molester.
The young SDA PT who is working where I work, told me her father was a minister and got involved selling drugs, divorced her mother and somewhere in the process left the SDA church.
Yes, we are nosy and like to gossip, and God does not want it that way, but as He fills us with his Spirit, our hearts and minds and interests change.
Sin is sin, is sin, any way you cut it. I pray that we treat ALL sin the same and that we love the sinner and hate what they do. I could go on about this last statement, but I have to get ready to go to church.
God is always awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2012
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 8:25 pm: | |
I even wonder is sexual sins seem "worse" to people than others becaue sex is so closely related to the spirit of humankind. There's some reason for the fact that Jesus calls the church His bride, and in paganism, temple prostitutes have historically been part of worshiping demons and false gods (which get their "power" from demons).
There's something holy about sex in a Christian, loving marriage, and there's something terribly and deeply twisting about sex in an uncommitted, inappropriate setting.
I don't really know how to explain this "sense" I have about it--I just wonder about it.
Colleen |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 890
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 8:34 pm: | |
I think to some degree because it is something the Bible so clearly defines and yet is so hard to overcome once that line has been crossed. The Bible says sexual sin is the one we commit AGAINST our own body, yet it is usually our own lusts that drive towards it. Talk about being double minded.
I also think it has to do with the ability to do it in such secret, until someone gets pregnant and there is no denying it. Most people are completely shocked. The older I've gotten, the more I've come to realize how many of my single friends have struggled with this issue in their personal relationships. I know how pop culture makes it out like no big deal to talk about, but most people I know don't talk about such intimate and personal relationships. I remember when I first became involved immorally with B, I went to some friends to ask them to help me be accountable, but I never could tell them accountable "for what". Our pastor has tried to especially deal with the men in our church to become accountable to someone, a friend that will ask them if they stayed faithful when they went on a business trip, etc. Even though it's completely out of someone's character, that's when the tempter comes. It's almost "easy" when you're on the road, and the porn is right in the room, or there's a bar close by.... I've been very impressed with his concern for the moral fiber of the men in our church, feeling they are key to being spiritual leaders and a major factor in the family unit. That's not always the popular view of men these day who it seems modern women are trying to 'keep in their place', much as they accuse men of doing to them through the generations.
Sexual sins, particularly in a marriage, destroy families. People get hurt in a way that they don't with some other sins. Though they may stay together, and a few may overcome, reality is a trust is broken that is really hard for some to repair. People fool themselves into saying "it's between two consenting adults..." I've come to recognize the lie that exists in that statement. Somehow our society has equated sex with love on some level, and merely an animal act on another. We have the romance novels where sex is the "natural" progression of a love relationship, which makes it challenging to recognize love exisiting in an abstinent relationship, and then we have the animal act proponents, which take individuals completely out of it and make it a real "base" action. Personally, fallen as I am, I am a huge advocate for abstinence for reasons beyond the bible, though that is a strong reason. From my personal experience, there is a trust that is broken outside of marriage when morality fails. Once you've broken through that fence of intimacy, it's not like you can go back and hold hands again...which is why it is exceptionally challenging for the divorced person who re-enters a relationship. Secondly, the more people a person has been with (and I am fortunate enough to limit that number to a couple), the less "special" that relationship becomes. While I'm sure it's different for each individual, I hear things occasionally on tv shows that make me thinks that even secular people recognize a negative side to "loose" living.
All sin hurts people and damages relationships, but I've personally never witnessed anything as damaging as immorality to a marriage and a family. I've seen it change people's whole perspectives on life and their own value of themselves. I think it is exceptionally challenging to under estimate the damage this particular sin does to the person who commits it. To that end, and that end alone, I think outsiders have a place to hold up high standards, but we are also called to restore fallen people into fellowship with God and other believers. To me, sexual sin is secondary in some situations to other sin issues, such as pride, or arrogance, or self-centeredness and it's easier to blame the by-product, which maybe we haven't slipped into, than the root cause, which we all struggle with. Sometimes it probably is purely lust. But I think it is often way more complex than that, particularly amongst Christians. In a non-judgemental society, where tolerance is the name of the game, it's hard to call sin sin. The sin I hate the most is lying. I can hear anything as long as it's the truth, but when someone lies to me, they're telling me a host of negative things about their perception of me, ultimately. So, I'd rather hear the truth gruffly, than a lie with flowers.
Yes, all sin is sin, but I have never committed any sin that hurt me as much as that one. I have tried to "share" without getting too personal, but if we were sitting one on one, without an archive for recorded history, I would share with you some of my personal observations. True love does wait, even though there is forgiveness. And love is faithful, once married. I understand more than I can detail here why I feel so passionately about this issue, not in condemnation, but in concern for the mental health of the people involved long term, and their future mates (or family, if already married). |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2016
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 11:18 pm: | |
Melissa, thank you for your post. It was absolutely true--and brave. You are completely right. Sexual sin really is, I believe, perhaps the one that does the most damage to psyches and relationships--perhaps partly because it is closely connected to dishonesty.
As you mentioned, it is usually done in secret, no matter what form it takes. The minute you involve yourself in something you want to hide, you're functioning dishonestly. And sexual sin don't just affect the material world; it affects a person's heart and soul and ability to trust. While every sin is destructive, this one is a direct assault on oneself and those s/he loves.
Colleen |
Somethinfishy
Registered user
Username: Somethinfishy
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 10:40 am: | |
Every once in a while I seem to be struck with a common denominator, or a common lesson in things I experience in my life, or see friends experiencing in theirs. Recently it has been the power of speaking. I don't mean speaking from a pulpit, or speaking in front of people, I just mean speaking with people, and connecting with them.
Taking off from Melissa's post on how sexual sins are easy to hide, until someone gets pregnant, I have been really hit with thoughts about how easy it is to feel that one is keeping many sins hidden, even if they are obvious to others, if they are never acknowledged through spoken, audible words. Maybe I see this more because of the "perfectionism" of SDAism, but maybe not only because of that.
More and more, I am seeing an attitude of "if I am doing something blatantly sinful, that I know is wrong, and you know is wrong, if we don't talk about it, you can pretend it isn't happening. I can pretend it is ok because you MUST be seeing me do it, and if you are not saying anything about it, it must not be that bad." I hope that made sense...this is just a vague concept bouncing around in my brain right now.
I am just really realizing how important it is to communicate and truly FELLOWSHIP with one another, not solely for the purpose having fun together, or on the opposite end, pointing out eachother's faults, but also so that WE can be open to outside perspectives on our own behaviour and actions. When you isolate yourself, and keep only surface relationships with others, it can become SO easy to justify anything that you decide that you are going to do, even if you are maintaining your own devotional time and prayer time. I don't know why this happens, but I have seen it time and time again, in people of all denominations and walks of life.
Keeping these "hidden" sins from happening comes from allowing yourself to be transparent with someone, or someone(s), as well as the other spiritual disciplines of personal study and prayer.
I hope this all makes sense. I have been thinking about it a lot lately. Must run...my BRAND-NEW, 4-day old nephew just got here to visit...so cute!! |
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