| Author |
Message |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 291
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:27 am: |     |
I guess I just have difficulty equating this teacher's sin with that of David, and with those types of sins that land you in prison. Love covers a multidude of sins, as James says, and firing someone in this situation seems extreme, but we may not have the entire story. Another voice from my past, Robert Brinsmead, used to refer to the spirit of fundamentalism, and equated it to the spirit of Adventism--They sre judgmental spirits that are contrary to the gospel, and spirits of legalism which hold people in bondage. I don't know, I am just having trouble with the way this teacher's situation was handled. Stan |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1947
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:30 am: | |
Stan, I appreciated Des Ford's comment that a sure sign of legalism is when sexual sin is considered worse than other sins. I have seen this phenomenon in both the Adventist community and also the Christian community.
I have appreciated watching our church deal with "sins"--although much of the board's dealings are never known by the church. We have seen one person disciplined publicly for refusing--after many months of private interaction with the church board--to break off an affair. It was a startling event because it was done with such deep love and sorrow. The entire church was quiet during the reading of the announcement by the board, and the tears and sorrow were palpable.
The thing I've seen, though, is that sins of sniping and gossip are handled with as much dispatch and authority as are the "big" sins.
The only context in which discipline is actually a form of grace is one in which those doing the discipline are alive in Christ and aware of His grace to them. Discipline because of a "principle" or a "commandment" (instead of because of honoring Jesus) is usually punishment and is not part of actually "making a disciple".
Praise God that He disciplines us!
Colleen |
Becky
Registered user
Username: Becky
Post Number: 12
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:31 am: | |
Nothing saddens me more than when a professed Christian church doesn't act Christian. Growing up non-denominational Christian, I was blessed with having wonderful experiences in church. Lots use the excuse to not go to church because of all those hypocrits. Several years ago, while I was working as a church secretary for a Baptist church, I saw corruption (my first time) in the church firsthand. I was literally sick over it and quit. I absolutely could not believe how far off track this church had gotten. My point is these things, unfortunately, do happen everywhere. We need to follow Jesus not a church. Fellowship with other believers (church) is very important, and we need to pray that God leads us to "the right place."
Having said that, though, from www.adventist.org, I found the SDA guidelines for abortion. Maybe this woman would have been more accepted chosing that option.
Here's some of what the website states:
) Prenatal human life is a magnificent gift of God. God's ideal for human beings affirms the sanctity of human life, in God's image, and requires respect for prenatal life. However, decisions about life must be made in the context of a fallen world. Abortion is never an action of little moral consequence. Thus prenatal life must not be thoughtlessly destroyed. Abortion should be performed only for the most serious reasons.
2) Abortion is one of the tragic dilemmas of human fallenness. The Church should offer gracious support to those who personally face the decision concerning an abortion. Attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate in those who have accepted the gospel. Christians are commissioned to become a loving, caring community of faith that assists those in crisis as alternatives are considered.
3) In practical, tangible ways the Church as a supportive community should express its commitment to the value of human life. These ways should include:
a. strengthening family relationships
b. educating both genders concerning Christian principles of human sexuality
c. emphasizing responsibility of both male and female for family planning
d. calling both to be responsible for the consequences of behaviors that are inconsistent with Christian principles
e. creating a safe climate for ongoing discussion of the moral questions associated with abortion
f. offering support and assistance to women who choose to complete crisis pregnancies
g. encouraging and assisting fathers to participate responsibly in the parenting of their children.
The Church also should commit itself to assist in alleviating the unfortunate social, economic, and psychological factors that add to abortion and to care redemptively for those suffering the consequences of individual decisions on this issue.
4) The Church does not serve as conscience for individuals; however, it should provide moral guidance. Abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned by the Church. Women, at times however, may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman's life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman after appropriate consultation. She should be aided in her decision by accurate information, biblical principles, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, these decisions are best made within the context of healthy family relationships.
5) Christians acknowledge as first and foremost their accountability to God. They seek balance between the exercise of individual liberty and their accountability to the faith community and the larger society and its laws. They make their choices according to scripture and the laws of God rather than the norms of society. Therefore, any attempts to coerce women either to remain pregnant or to terminate pregnancy should be rejected as infringements of personal freedom.
6) Church institutions should be provided with guidelines for developing their own institutional policies in harmony with this statement. Persons having a religious or ethical objection to abortion should not be required to participate in the performance of abortions.
7) Church members should be encouraged to participate in the ongoing consideration of their moral responsibilities with regard to abortion in light of the teaching of scripture.
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1952
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:56 am: | |
Interesting observation, Becky. Have you read Tessa and Arthur Beem's story on this site on the "stories" page?
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Becky
Registered user
Username: Becky
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:20 am: | |
Hi Colleen,
Yes I have. I have pointed this observation out to my parents. My dad asked around about it, specifically why abortions are performed in Adventist hospitals. His answer was, "While Adventist hospitals do not promote abortion, the hospitals contract with lots of doctors. The hospitals cannot dictate to the doctors what they can and cannot do; therefore, some doctors opt to perform abortions. This procedure then, cannot be eliminated as the hospitals cannot dictate what certain doctors do." I also pointed out to Dad this was an interesting twist, since evidently, Adventist hospitals can dictate a vegetarian diet in their hospitals.
Believe me, I bring this up not to condemn Adventists. I only put my two cents in as a support for former adventists in hopes to make it all the more clear that they have made a sound decision to leave. No church is perfect, and all churches are loaded with hypocrits. We have to be careful, however, what is actually taught from the pulpit.
I keep feeling like I don't understand what former adventists are going through having not experienced it myself. On some level though, I do. My decision to leave the Babtist church I was secretary at didn't come overnight. It was through a lot of tears and pain that I left knowing they were commiting the unpardonable sin - not reaching out to those desiring a relationship with Christ. Their judgmental and callous hearts could not have come from Christ. Then, as only God can, he SHOWED me the light. The final straw was when the pastor asked me to lie on his taxes; the elders wanted me to turn a blind eye. That pastor wouldn't return calls to a lady would wanted Jesus and was considering suicide etc. There was a whole string of things that left me sleepless and unsettled. Sidenote, I REFUSED to do the pastors W2 form. It was a very confusing and sad time, but God is good and faithful. That pastor is no longer allowed to pastor under the Baptist umbrella etc. I do not know what it's like to leave SDA, but I do know what it's like to leave a church, yours friends etc and suffer confusion. I'm praying for all of those seeking to follow Christ and suffer persecution and confusion in the process.
Love in Christ,
Becky |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 246
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:35 am: | |
I recommend to all a short essay by John Ortberg, titled "DO THEY KNOW US BY OUR LOVE?"
Here is the link (you will need Adobe Reader to view this):
http://www.dawnministries.org/resources/downloads/download_files/do_they_know_us_by_our_love.pdf
Bob |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 654
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:30 am: | |
Becky, I don't think Catholic hospitals allow abortions to be performed, so I agree that that is just an excuse about them having no control over the matter.
Notice that the official SDA statement says, "Thus prenatal life must not be thoughtlessly destroyed."
In other words, it has to be premeditated murder--only "thoughtful" murder is allowed!
Regarding putting sexual sins above others, it has seemed to me that the SDAs actually don't care about things like adultery, etc., usually. They seem to think that smoking is a worse sin than adultery!
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1953
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 12:14 pm: | |
Excellent article, Bob. I like Ortberg's emphasis on the fact that we are not called to promote values; we are called to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I've pondered a lot about the fact that Christians tend to lose their credibility because they make the "principle" the thing instead of making Jesus the Main Thing. For example, the huge bru-ha-ha over the Ten Commandments in the courtroom. Really, the focus in our lives must be yielding to the Spirit.
It does matter, though, what we believe. For me, the key to discovering the gospel was to examine what I believed. Jude was clear that we are to contend for the faith that was handed down to us. I noticed that the more depth and clarity the Bible yields to me about Jesus and the purposes of God, the more dangerous and twisted Adventist theology is shown to be.
It's important, though, that in discussing these things (which is an inevitable part of dealing with our past and growing into our lives as "ordinary Christians") we do it yielded to the Spirit. Our purpose needs to be to exalt the truth about Jesus as opposed to simply exposing evil for its own sake. If we don't exalt Jesus as we discuss error, we leave a vacuum.
Getting rid of our early indoctrination only "works" if we choose to replace it with Jesus. The problem with so many "formers" who leave because they know Adventism is impossible and flawed but never find a place to worship is that they never replaced their knowledge of error with the truth about Jesus.
We're not here simply because we left the church; we're here because we have found Jesus to be our Sabbath rest, and in Him our hearts have finally found a home! He has given us new hearts and living spirits. We actually have something to offer those who are in bondage, either to Adventism or to disillusionment.
Again, good essay, Bob--and Becky, your point about needing to be aware of what's really being taught and practiced is so important. God calls us to integrity and to unity in the Spirit as we defend the gospel "as one man" (Philippians 1:27).
Colleen |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 315
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 2:19 pm: | |
Driving home from work yesterday I happened to catch a small slice of the Albert Mohler show. It was entitled, "Should a Church Discipline Members Over Politics?" The little bit that I heard was very upsetting to me, coming out of the legalism as we all are. Perhaps the rest of the program was better. http://www.albertmohler.com/radio_list.php
For those of you who aren't aware, Albert Mohler is President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, "the flagship school" for the SBC.
Perhaps we need to take our bad experiences with legalism that we've all had and ask the Lord to use us in any way he wants to reach others who have been dealt blows by their churches--regardless of the denomination.
Praise God |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1805
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 2:46 pm: | |
I hope the lady gets a better job. I am 54. I can still remember when public school teachers would have been disaplined in the same way. I do believe though that she school administrators should 'turn the other cheek' and wish her and her new family well and let her keep her job. However, at the same time I think in the long run she will be better off getting away from the SDA schools and hopefully SDA environment. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 293
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 3:41 pm: | |
Bob, Thanks for that article. When I think of Jesus, and when they brought that woman caught in adultery, and were about to stone her, He told her, "go and sin no more." The teacher at that school had already made the situation right--she got married! I cannot imagine Jesus approving of firing this woman. Yet, as Susan says, "she will be better off". Yes the Lord works in marvelous ways, and this may be His way of saving her out of that cultic organization. He is sovereign! Stan |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1487
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 6:13 pm: | |
Jeremy,
You are correct that NO ABORTIONS ARE DONE IN CATHOLIC HOSPITALS. Any doctor that wants privileges at a Catholic hospital cannot perform abortions, even at another hospital. That is the way I understood it when I went through the orientation process for the Catholic hospital at which I worked.
After reading and thinking about this teacher, I am convinced this is the best thing that happened to her. God knows best how to reach each individual and He is doing that. He is so awesome.
Diana |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 88
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:05 pm: | |
Interesting that one of our SDA church officers here is a convicted child molester yet still retains his position. When we voiced our concern to the pastor, since our child had been at this guy's house, we were treated as though we were the ones in the wrong for even having the audacity to bring it up. No one wants to tar and feather him but let's be responsible here. The pastor's response was, "I wasn't aware of there being any more problems..." Hello?! |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1490
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:19 pm: | |
And they condemn the Catholic church for protecting it's priests. Isn't the SDA church doing the same thing, protecting the perpetrator??
I do not see any difference. Sin is sin is sin, no matter who does it. Humanity is humanity and humanity without Jesus will do just about anything, whatever church/denomination they are in.
Diana |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1497
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:14 pm: | |
Heretic,
Have any of the people whose children this person molested gone to the police. Check with the police about having a child molester in your neighborhood. Of course if he has never been convicted that would be something else.
Diana |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1498
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:22 pm: | |
Heretic, I missed where you said he is a CONVICTED child molester. Check with the police to see if there is some kind of law in your state that says the neighbors need to know if there is a child molester in their midst. Neighborhoods need to know that to protect their children.
Diana |
Taybie
Registered user
Username: Taybie
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 8:18 am: | |
Hi everyone,
My two cents - What blows me away is the numerous, countless, variety of times acculimilated by "Christians" (be they Adventist, Baptist, etc.) that seemingly DELIBERATELY side step chances for forgiveness, mercy, grace and love! This situation was not as bad as it was made to be...yes, mistakes were made and I forget who said it, but she did get married! We can have ALL the opinions in the world about their, (Mrs. John and her husband) procedures, intentions and methods, but in the end, they fell in line. No, I do not reccommend pregnancy before marriage, but where does ANYONE have room for judgement? To shamelessly and publicly fire her not only sullied a chance for witnessing, but it also slathered more mud on the already thought to be messy title of Christianity. Don't misunderstand me, I am Jesus' handmaiden and servant. I am devoted to Him and know that I am nothing without Him. All I am saying is that they will know us by our love...not our laws. Sorry, this subject really heated me up! I KNOW I could say more, but I will just stop here and thank God for His amazing grace and mercy!
HE IS WORTHY OF MY LIFE AND LOVE!!!!!!!
Isn't He the BEST??? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1985
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 10:05 am: | |
Yes, Taybie--I agree; He is the BEST! I remember not only the talks and discussions I heard in ADventism regarding loving Jesus and how to "live for Him", but also my own feelings about the matter. I concluded, back then, that loving Jesus was a principle, not an emotion. (Did you ever hear that? Love is not a feeling; it is a principle.)
Yes, of course there is a principle in love. But as an Adventist, that idea meant that if I did my best to obey the commandments, honor the Sabbath, and live as I had been taught to live, that was proof that I loved Jesus. In other words, loving Jesus boiled down to "doing the right thing", being "ethical", making decisions that would "send the right message" (I can't even remember how many faculty meetings I sat in when I realized my natural feelings of empathy had to be overridden by the rules in order to "send the right message"--talk about cognitive dissonance!), etc.
What I realize now is that loving Jesus means exactly that--it's not only a "principle" which I "demonstrate". I KNOW Him. I am aware of His presence; I actually feel love for Him. This reality of loving Jesus is one of the things Adventism (and other legalistic groups as well) obscure. When the Bible says to believe in Him, to confess Him, to follow Him, that's not talking about an intellectual decision and a committment to keep the law.
The Bible is talking about actually surrendering to KNOWING Jesus, to literally experiencing Him, to actually feeling love for Him.
I've also pondered that being ethical isn't necessarily the goal of a Christian; being Moral is our calling. I remember reading in Oswald Chambers that ethics begins with sin and works backward to truth/God. Morality begins with God and moves forward into the areas of sin. I believe that distinction makes a HUGE difference in the way we approach sin and sinners.
We MUST begin with Jesus and carry His presence into our interactions. But if we don't really know Jesus, we really don't have any option but to substitute ethics for morality.
Praise God for making us new by His Spirit!
Colleen |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 95
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 10:07 am: | |
Diana,
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back with you to answer your question. Somehow I've neglected this thread.
We found about his status via the state police website which lists and includes mugshots of sex offenders. The child involved here was his own daughter. I spoke with the detective who worked on the case and she said he plea bargained from 22 counts down to 3 counts and that under no circumstances should he be around children alone. He was lurking around the church school a great deal and wouldn't stop until someone finally forced the conference's hand. But yes, there did appear to be an effort to protect this guy. I think they were just happy to find someone that would do his church office. ALL the church elders knew about it and did nothing to put rules in place to protect the kids. No one would have even needed to know about it had rules been put in place, but they weren't and this is what led to my son going over to their house to be babysat. This guy has many kids and there are always his kids' friends over at the house.
The whole thing still sickens and infuriates me.
Heretic |
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