| Author | Message | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well, thanks all for your prayers as I dealt with two academy reunions within a couple weeks of each other. One of our dear FAF's sent me some resources to take with on my last reunion. I prayed that God would give them to the right people. The books were Discovering the New Covenant, Why I'm no longer a Seventh Day Adventist, and the other a fact booklet by Ratzloff about what SDA's believe.... anyway, as God is AWESOME, after the weekend was nearly over, I happen to - OUT OF THE BLUE after telling NO ONE the entire weekend about our journey out of Adventism, told an old MEA friend. She got tears in her eyes and told me she couldn't believe what she was hearing, that she had become disillusioned with Adventism back in college days and that she had left years ago, but because she felt guilty about the worshiping on Sabbath issue, she'd never found a church, so had raised her children unchurched. I gave her the two books, we hugged and I told her I'd call her soon. Yesterday I called her. She is so excited. She clearly saw the issues, and can't wait to find a church to become active for Christ in. She knew all along that Christ was her only answer, but didn't know how to figure it all out. PRAISE GOD. Then the last Covenant book I gave to my brother in law who is a pastor. We had some discussions. He thinks that what we say are Adventist distinctives and what truly ARE distinctives are two different things, and proceeded to tell us all the ways in which he disagreed with ways people use EGW, how they deal with the state of the dead, etcÖ but still holds that EGW was used by God, etcÖ He says his big argument is that there is no clear definition of the New Covenant. CAN ANYONE HELP ME OUT WITH A CLEAR DEFINITION. I told him that a covenant is like a will, and the first will was made with Israel after transgression and applied to those people until the seed (Jesus) and that the Epistles are full of practical applications as to how to live after the crossÖ He really wanted something like the 10 commandments ñ spelled out. I think the closest to that would be the sermon of the mount, huh? He didn't know the basic texts such as in II Cor where Paul makes a statement about letters carved in tablets of stone, and Moses shinning face. He claims that where the law is claimed to be standing against us as Paul refers to it, that is not the 10 commandments. His big issue is that he believes the law was not given to the Israelites but transcended time. I want to testify to how AWESOME God is. Last night I went to bed with tinges of fear cropping up again after hearing SDA doctrine all weekend long, arguments, texts, etc... I cried out to God to show me we were on the right track. I just plopped open my Bible and it happed to be to II Chronicles. I started reading the measurements for the temple Solomon was building. My immediate thought was that God had not heard my prayer. Out of obedience I kept reading. And there it was. The first thing it says in II Chronicles 2:4 is that the Sabbath along with systems had been made with ISRAEL. That is huge contention among SDA's. Then the same book, chap 5:10 it says that the 10 commandments were in the ark, it tells when they were given, who they were given to and in what context. (given to the Israelites after they left Egypt). Ted and I have had a number of "phone calls" from the Lord just like the one I had last night, answering specific questions and calming our nerves as verses literally sent us the truth without us knowing what texts we were looking for. So, I wrote a response to my brother in law I've not sent yet. Do you have anything to add? Could you give me some insight on the Sabbath day mentioned in Gen? My brother in law swears that the actual Sabbath day is mentioned in Rev as a test of faithfulness in the end times. Do any of you know what he's talking about other than keeping the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus? Iíve looked and just canít find it. Hereís what I wrote to him, so you can read it and give me additional information if you have some. Hi B- and B-, Last Night was just one of the many in which I cried out to God for some insight, and I opened to II Chron of all books and found yet another example of what we've learned this past year. I agreed to read Deut., and read most of the entire book. The points I gather you and we disagree on are as follows..., 1. You believe that the law that stood between us was not the 10 commandments but the other parts of the law. Duet 11:8-17 is just a tiny part of the book that includes the 10 commandments in which if you do not obey the 10 as well as the rest you will be cursed. Read II Corinthians 3 and down in verse 7 you will notice that it refers to the 10 commandments as being "the ministry of death" - and refers to letters chiseled on stone tablets, and is clear what those tablets are when there is a reference made to Moses and his shining face (those were the 10 commandments, not to be excluded as Paul is very specific about the event - See Ex 34:29.) Remember that the two tablets of the 10 commandments were to be in the temple when Jesus tore the curtain from top to bottom - read , Ex 40:20,II Chronicles 5:10, and notice what the ark was called, The Ark of the Covenant Ex 40:3 2. That you believe that the 10 commandments were not given to the Israelites but were before time Read Duet 5:2-21 which clearly states that God made the 10 commandments a covenant with the Israelites and NOT with their ancestors. And to clarify what the covenant is, Ex 34: 28 says exactly what Moses wrote and what it was Notice Duet 5:15 which explains why the Sabbath day was given as a command to the Israelites Read II Chron 2: 4, II Chron 5:10 (notice when the tablets were put there, and that the covenant was made to the Israelites, it even says when, after they came out of Egypt. 3. You believe that the Sabbath was CREATED along with the rest of the world, at creation. The text in Genesis that describes the Sabbath I will read more on so that I can be articulate, but the simple version is that Moses was explaining why the Sabbath was chosen as a day set aside and hollowed because God HAD rested after creating for 6 days. Notice that there is no command to keep the Sabbath in Gen, but in Ex when the children of Israel started gathering Manna, which was explained as to why the command was given to the Israelites in Duet 5:15 Well, there you have, some reading and some thought. God Bless you as you study His Word. Sincerely, Lisa for Us There it is, FAF, what do you think? Any additional thoughts? Lisa | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 346 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lisa, you have layed it out clear and simple. Please be patient with your brother-in-law, he has a lot riding on whether or not he accepts this information at face value. He will also be taking this information to other SDA who will do everything they can to invalidate what you have shared. Pray, now, that he will experience the spiritual dissonance that comes with not believing the Word of God. Belva | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 842 Registered: 7-2003  |
Lisa, God did the same thing with me in those midnight phone calls. It is pretty incredible that the God of the universe is so personal with me. To some extent, I think the new covenant is "fuzzy" for lack of a better word, not because it isn't defined clearly enough, but because it relies on a personal relationship with Christ. Loving God and loving others just isn't specific enough to some people. We know Christ brought in the new covenant with his blood. While there are analogies of being like a will, Galatians seems to liken it to a law, and says once we were under one law, now that the "husband' has died, we are no longer under that law, but free. Unfortunately, I don't have time here to do it justice, but the Cultic Doctrine book is an excellent source on the issues of the NC vs. the old. I did have one striking thought, that I typically have when someone says the 10 Cs are eternal.... Isn't it a bit of a conflict to believe the 10 Cs were created before time, then believe that the sabbath was created at creation? What mother and father did the eternal beings honor? For non-sexual beings, why admonitions against adultery? While there is no mention of the subject, do angels have possessions to covet? They certainly don't have wives/husbands. Who do they murder? And the kicker...without time, how did they know when it was "the 7th day". That always confuses me, but don't feel bad if they dismiss the questions as frivolous. I've yet to get a sincere response from them. I'm sure others can provide more specific feedback. It's surprising to me they asked you to read Deuteronomy. B usually says that book isn't "the law". I found that book to be quite revealing, myself...and it is the one God pointed me to as he pointed you to 2 Chron. He truly meets us where we are... | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 415 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lisa, I think that Melissa is right about a personal relationship with Christ being the defining point of the New Covenant. I also believe that as long as people hold onto the Old Covenant it is almost impossible to fully grasp the New Covenant (which is all about living with grace and Jesus!). This year I did an indepth study of Hebrews. I feel that Hebrews does an excellent job of explaining the Old and the New covenants. The Old Covenant became inadequate when Christ came and established the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10 tells us that God put His laws in our minds and that He writes those laws on our hearts. The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant and the sign of the New Covenant is the celebration of the Lord's supper (see 1 Cor. 11:23-26). The book of Hebrews is dedicated to showing the superiority of Christ to all of the Old Testament system. Ch. 1 focuses on the glories of the deity of Christ. Ch. 2 tells us why it is fitting that Jesus suffered and died -- HE IS GOD! He was perfect for the "job". Ch.3 shows that Jesus is superior to Moses (the law). Ch. 4 tells us to not have fear because of the peace we have in our salvation through Jesus. The Holy Spirit lives in me and guides me (John 13-16). He is the indwelling Jesus in my life. THe Seal of God is the Holy Spirit in my life giving me a daily walk with Jesus (Eph. 1:13,14; Eph. 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:20-22). When I receive the gift of the Holy Spirit by receiving Jesus, I enter into the daily rest experience that is described in Hebrews 3 and 4. YES!!! THE BIBLE IS CLEAR AS TO WHAT DAY I AM TO WORSHIP GOD -- IT IS TODAY!!!! Ch. 5 of Hebrews gives the qualifications Jesus has to be my High Priest. He was called by God, He is compassionate, He had obedience to God despite suffering and He is the eternal source of salvation. Ch 6. talks about maturing in faith toward God which is possible with the Holy Spirit. God is unchangeable in His Word and His Character. Jesus is THE BETTER PRIESTHOOD (Ch. 7), He is THE BETTER COVENANT (it is a unilateral coenant - it depends only on God and not on my ability to keep it! - Ch. 8), THE BETTER SANCTUARY (Ch. 9), and He is THE BETTER SACRIFICE (Ch. 10). Hebrews 11-13 then shows how my response to what God has said in His Word is my faith, how to then live by that faith and the essentials of a Christian life through that faith. That is just a brief overview of my take on Hebrews. I feel it is a very strong case for the New Covenant from a logical Biblical stance. But like I said earlier...I do not feel the New Covenant can be fully grasped until a person is willing to let go completely of the Old Covenant -- which is a complete surrendering to Jesus. Greg Taylor's book is a great "walk" through the Bible looking at New Covenant Scripture. Also, Dale's Ratzlaf book "Sabbath in Christ" is also excellent. About Sabbath in Genesis...note Genesis 2:2...GOD RESTED!! There is no mention of commanding mankind to rest, not evening and morning (God intended His rest to continue throughout eternity for all mankind...), the day "sabbath" is not mentioned (until Ex. 16:23) and how could man have rested anyway...they didn't start working until after sin (Gen. 3:16-18, 23). Anyway, Lisa...these are just some of my ramblings...I am such a great "fan" of the New Covenant. I have talked and talked about the New Covenant to my kids (who still attend SDA school). My daughter told me that she told a classmate the other day, "I am no longer a Seventh-Day Adventist: I am a New Covenant Christian!"  GIVE ME JESUS!! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 537 Registered: 1-2003 |
One of the big differences in covenants is with the New Covenant, we got the Holy Spirit (the mind of God) and therefore we do not need stoney rules (10 Commandments) made for stoney hearted people- COI(Isrealites)to tell us how to live...that is the job of the Holy Spirit. Christ's death on the cross restored us to what was available in Eden, access to the Father, we can approach the throne freely now...not like the COI who had to meet with him on a certain day in a certain place (an earthly temple, whose veil was ripped in two!), with a go-between (priest) and a certain sacrifice...Because of Christ (the perfect sacrifice), God dwells in us now and is always with us. That's a huge difference. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1771 Registered: 11-2002 |
There is no mention of the Sabbath or for that matter, any Sabbath in the book of Genesis. It's my understanding that since the Bible says the Sabbath was for Isreal the SDA's convolute that to imply that the SDA's are "spiritual Isreal". Kind-of stupid to me but I think that is how they get around that, to which I always tell them that Bibically I am a Gentile so I fall under the laws of Jesus that He set down for the Gentiles. It generally ends up that the SDA's in my life go away thinking I'm one lost sucker and I go away thinking they're real stupid, and that's about it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1811 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lisa, Melissa and Dd are right that only in a relationship with Jesus does the New Covenant come into focus. Truly, your BIL needs to WANT to know the truth before he will see it. The book of Galatians is also helpful. Sometimes I ask peolel to read it every day for a month--it's not long, and it clearly states that the law was given AFTER Abraham UNTIL the Seed. There is no reference to keeping the Sabbath day in Revelation. The only Sabbath reference I've ever heard argued is the "commandments of God" text you mentioned above--and that isn't refering to the Ten. Sometimes people confuse the text in Isaiah 66:23 with Revelation--the place where it says from one New Moon to another and from Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down to the Lord. Adventists, however, have no trouble believing that the New Moon celebrations were done away with and aren't binding now. The fact that it's paired with the Sabbath, I believe, means that both are prophetic foreshadowing of all mankind bowing down to Jesus, the fulfillment of the New Moons and the Sabbaths. Further, Revelation does say there is no need for the sun in heaven because the Lamb is its light. Without the sun/moon, there's no night there. How can there possibly be recurring Sabbaths without recurring days? Would your BIL be open to praying that God will show him the truth in the Bible without EGW filters? That would be the most helpful place for him to start. What wonderful stories of your surprise encounters with old friends! Colleen | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen and All, My BIL wanted me to read certain passages as I agreed to do, but when I challenged he and my sister in exchange to get on their faces before God and ask Him to show them if they are missing something on this topic, (and it was brought up a number of times when they continued to challenge to me to read this text or that), there was only silence. I am praying for them. I believe the biggest stumbling block to Adventists is PRIDE. Pride that we have the truth, know the scripture better than other Christians, Pride that we are balanced in understanding the entire picture, Pride that we are the remnant, keep the commandments, live longer because of health message, etc... and with Pride, a persons' hope is only an experience of HUMILITY, an awareness that they NEED God with or without organizing all the facts. There is a form of Godliness without the power. I have gotten some great feedback. Thank you all for your thoughts... I'm going to work on that document, but most of all, PLEASE PRAY. God takes shades off peoples eyes when He's ready and when they are willing to lean completely on His Good News with nothing else as their hope. Lisa | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 576 Registered: 10-2004  |
Lisa wrote: "and with Pride, a persons' hope is only an experience of HUMILITY, an awareness that they NEED God with or without organizing all the facts." Yes, what I realized recently is that that is what the instructions for the people on the Day of Atonement were all about. It says, "This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble your souls and not do any work, whether the native, or the alien who sojourns among you; 30for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD." (Leviticus 16:29-30 NASB.) Notice that humbling your soul has to do with not doing any work. We have to humble ourselves, admit that we can't save ourselves, and not do ANY work but allow the Messiah's once-for-all atonement to cleanse us of all our sins! (Jesus also talks about this humbling of oneself, in Luke 18:9-17.) How can the SDAs say that we are living in "the Great Day of Atonement" and then try to WORK their way to heaven and say that faith and works are the two oars by which we row our way to heaven--when it says here that you are NOT to do ANY work but that atonement is made FOR you?! Also, it makes no sense that they don't keep the literal physical sabbath day commanded here, either. It's the holiest day in all the Law--and they just ignore it, but say the weekly sabbath is a salvation issue! Lisa, the following link may help a bit regarding Sabbath, Genesis, etc.: http://www.ariel.org/mshabbat.html The text says that God "ceased" (literal Heb.) creating the world. Adam and Eve did not create the world, therefore they could not join God in His "rest"/"ceasing." And it does not say that they rested--it only says GOD rested. Also, God did not end his rest/ceasing--He did not start creating again on Sunday, Monday, or any other day. It was an eternal rest. And it nowhere calls it a Sabbath ("shabbat"--which means "intermission" according to Strong's concordance). God did NOT shabbat, it was not a shabbat, it was not an intermission--it was a permanent eternal rest/ceasing. As Melissa pointed out, how can the Sabbath both be eternal/always was, and also created after the world was created?? They are contradictory--I believe EGW said both. I think she says the angels kept the Sabbath--but how? What work do angels do on the first six days of the week that they don't do on the seventh day?! One other point is that even if the Sabbath was instituted at Creation (which it clearly was not), it still would not be binding for us, because it was fulfilled in Christ. Even if it was instituted before the Fall, that does not make it eternal or mean that it will last forever. Marriage was instituted before the Fall, but Jesus said that there will be NO marriage in heaven--it does not last forever just because it was instituted, and given to and commanded to Adam and Eve before the Fall! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on April 20, 2005) | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 149 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lisa, they are dealing with a veil over their hearts. I have begun to realize that you really cannot open peoples eyes to what they do not want to see. You can only point them in the right direction. You put the Law in front of him in plain english. There are too many references of the Law being for the people of Israel. There is nothing more that you can do. Just put in God's hands and let it go. Some receive, and some reject. But you did your job. | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 |
Lisa_boyldavis, your opening entry in this thread really struck some important notes for me. It seems that you were given some real "God appointed" opportunities. The end result is God's wonderful work. You said; "Last night I went to bed with tinges of fear cropping up again after hearing SDA doctrine all weekend long, arguments, texts, etc... I cried out to God to show me we were on the right track. I just plopped open my Bible and it happed..." Wow! How many times has that happened to me! I Praise Him because He DOES come through to squash the oppressing spirit. I am now at a place where that "spirit of oppression" is one of the undeniable marks and signals that the devil is working his deception. This "spirit of oppression" is the mark heresy. Thank-you! Dd; Thanks for sharing your Hebrews summary. Hebrews and the rest of the epistles (Galations, Colossians, Romans)are what bring peace and freedom. Regarding the "timelessness and universality of the seventh-day sabbath": My sda friends have not yet been able to resolve the observation that if Saturday is the timeless and universal Sabbath required of ALL His subjects everywhere in the universe (and this is what most will tell you), how does a Sabbath based upon 24 hour days derived from the rotation of earth on its axis have meaning or relevance where days are three or four times the length of ours or even shorter? Wasn't the 10-Commandment reference only the illustration of a greater Spiritual truth adapted to a unique physical world rather? If human wisdom is our benchmark weíll never understand the Divine stuff. Spirit stuff is opened up to us ONLY by the Spirit. I think the only hope for sdas is to fall and have every argument fail them, see the old covenant as inadequate before they can grab hold of the freedom and deliverance of the NEW Covenant. Paul Cross | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 539 Registered: 1-2003 |
God also revealed to me that SDA have a problem with pride. He told me the spirits of Adventism are pride and fear. Isn't it wonderful Lisaboyldavis when things are confirmed in the Spirit! |
