| Author |
Message |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 306
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 11:13 am: |     |
I would love to speak personally with someone who was trying to reconnect me to Adventism.  Somehow I don't think there will be many SDAs who want to talk with someone who is actively embracing Christianity. We've all found out how many will openly discuss something with us rather than run the other way.
Praise God... |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 561
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 11:35 am: | |
All I have to say is, why would they think I would want to go back into slavery when I have been set free in Christ?!
"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1 NASB.)
Amen!
Jeremy |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 412
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 11:55 am: | |
Dennis Rain...
"If we ever get bored with our walk with Him, it is because we aren't pay attention!"
Thank you for sharing your story...My husband and I moved our children to an SDA-mecca only to journey out of bondage into the arms of Jesus!
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Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 383
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 11:58 am: | |
Why? Because they think you're backsliding away from the "special truth" when you leave Adventism. They just can't comprehend anyone leaving and joining a Sunday keeping church regardless of how their relationship with Jesus has blossomed outside their walls. To them, it's not possible because you are deliberately breaking the sabbath and dissing White's message. Basically, we're pagans in their eyes. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 563
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:01 pm: | |
But at least we're "happy pagans" (to quote Hannah's father-in-law)!
Jeremy |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 51
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:11 pm: | |
For those of you who missed it, Colleen wrote a terrific review of Goldstein's book here, the one the pastor read that brought him "back into the fold":
http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/2089.html#POST24037 |
Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha
Post Number: 31
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:29 pm: | |
I also left the SDA Church, only to rejoin it and then leave again for the right reasons. I never thought of it that way before though!
I quit attending the SDA Church when I got divorced. My husband had been having affairs and finally when his current mistress pushed for it he filed for divorce. The "good" church people acted as if I was tainted because of that and basically ignored me from that point on. My ex-husband has always been held in high esteem!
So I drifted for quite awhile. But I was still wanting to have a relationship with Jesus and felt a need for Christian fellowship. I had not thought of finding that in a non-SDA Church though! So I just didn't attend anywhere.
Finally I started attending a new small, honest, friendly SDA Church only to have the Conference change pastors and turn it into a Historical-type SDA Church. Most of us original members left, with most not finding anywhere else to "land". I really started to question the SDA beliefs seriously at that time, because I couldn't see how a Christian church could act the way the SDA Church did. So - I quit attending again!
When I met my now husband, I started attending with him but still was questioning. When I asked for my membership to be changed to his Church I found out that I had been disfellowshiped! I was never contacted and still don't know why. My ex-husband is still on the church books! I complained about it and they reinstated me. But by then I was seriously studying my way out, and so was my husband!
We left the SDA Church together about three years ago and have never looked back. I know I left for the right reason - doctrinal rather than because I had been hurt. But I must say that the way the SDA Church treats its members really drove me to finally research their doctrines and learn the truth about them! I can't believe that as a life-long SDA I had no idea about the depth of deception there was.
I am so happy now to know that I AM SAVED by Jesus Blood alone. His work was FINISHED at the cross. I only have to repent and believe! I feel so free now, and want to shout from the roof-tops to everyone how wonderful this is! I want to rescue everyone I know that is still in slavery to the SDA Church and its blasphemous doctrines.
Looking back I can see how God kept me while I was struggling to understand. He used many hurtful situations in my life to be the catalyst I needed to really study His Word. I often wonder if I would be where I am now spiritually if I was still leading my old, comfortable life. I was questioning even then, but was too afraid to really take the steps I needed to take to find the truth. While I don't think God made those bad things happen, I know He used them to give me the push I needed to change!
God is so good! |
Velo1
Registered user
Username: Velo1
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 4:47 pm: | |
I was at the service on May 8, 2004 where Mr. Sellers gave his testimony. (See my post in the ìformer formersî topic a few weeks back, this was the same man. ( <http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/2851.html?1113032118> )
Mr. Sellerís testimony led me to Goldsteinís book as well as Ratzlaff's ìThe Cultic Doctrine of Seventh Day Adventistsî. However after I read them as well as studied the SDA teaching of Daniel and Revelation, I reached different conclusions
In the first Chapter of Graffiti, Mr. Goldstein states that he rejects fourteen of William Millerís proofs (page 10), he reiterates that the Clear Word Bible is not intended ìfor public reading in churchesî (page 12) and regarding ìThe Study Bibleî he states that he hadnít heard of the it, ìat least not until Brother Dale wrote in his book that it was another Adventist Bibleî (page 12)
In a few short weeks following my reading of CDSA and Graffiti :
I listened to a sermon , from the pastor of Mr. Goldsteinís church, explicitly affirming at least 6 (by my count) of Millerís 15 proofs as well as the Pastor stating ìIím not ashamed to say that I believe in most of what Willaim Miller taught, because I believe that he was mostly rightî; I witnessed the sub-Conference President of his region quote ìThe Clear Word Bibleî in a power point presentation used in his sermon; and I saw The Study Bible being used by a member of my Sabbath School group (I noticed it in the weekend following my read of CDSAÖÖ) Keep in mind these were statements made in the first chapter of Graffiti. To brush these items off in the first chapter seems to me to be at best disingenuous.
I could go on and on about the other misinformation presented in the church, but you all have been there and done that, Iím sure.
I canít say that I was particularly moved by the testimony, nor was I skeptical toward Mr. Sellers presentation other than wondering who Mr. Goldstein was and why this gentleman may have left the church.
Although I am sure this was not his intention, I am thankful that his testimony pointed me in another direction.
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Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 123
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 8:49 pm: | |
I was poking around on that creativeministry.org website and I found some facts from a national survey (FACT) taken of all churches including Adventist churches in 2003. I'm not trying to make a point, these are just the findings I found interesting.
Two thirds of Adventist local churches have 50 or fewer adults in attendance on a typical Sabbath.
Compared to other religious congregations in the U.S., the Adventist Church has significantly fewer local churches where more than 150 adults attend on a typical Sabbath. In fact, 12% of all congregations have a typical adult attendance of 151 or more, three times the portion among Adventist congregations.
Adventist pastors are more likely to report that their church buildings need improvement than are other religious leaders.
Adventist churches are more likely to report a need for additional fellowship space when compared to other faiths.
Adventist churches are more likely than other religious groups in America to have too much worship space.
Less than two out of five of the relatively few Adventist churches located in America's metropolitan areas are in the more visible downtown areas and newer suburbs.
A newcomer who walks into an Adventist church on Sabbath will be personally greeted by more than five of the members. That is the report by pastors and lay leaders in nearly three out of five local churches in the U.S.
Compared to all faiths across America, denominational heritage is much more important to Adventists as a source of religious authority.
Sermons preached in Adventist pulpits are less likely to include illustrations from contemporary media than are the messages heard in other congregations.
Adventist congregations are much less likely to hear sermons on issues of social justice than are most churches in America.
Adventist preachers are more likely to focus on personal salvation and doctrine than are the clergy of other denominations. This is likely one reason why Adventist congregations are somewhat less likely to hear a steady stream of sermons on how to live as a Christian in today's world.
Less than one in four Adventist pastors and first elders report that the community around their local church is well-informed about church ministries.
Leaders of Adventist local churches are somewhat less likely than leaders in congregations of other faiths to report that their church activities strengthen personal relationships among the members.
Excited About the Future
The majority of Adventist members in the United States are less excited about the future of their congregation than are the members of other faith groups in the same geographic area.
Only about one in fifteen churches have strong small group ministries with many or most adults participating.
Half of Adventist congregations report they are ìveryî or ìquiteî spiritually vital and alive. The other half is only ìsomewhatî or ìslightlyî or ìnot at allî spiritually vital and alive. Two-thirds of congregations of all faiths across America say they are ìveryî or ìquiteî spiritually vital and alive.
Curiously,
Hannah
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1787
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 9:15 pm: | |
Hannah, those are very interesting statistics. Revealing.
Thanks for posting them.
Colleen |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 195
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 9:43 pm: | |
I seriously doubt that this latest "program" of recruitment of former members will be seriously implemented by most SDA congregations. This kind of outreach, to be successful, requires a spirit of love in the hearts of the members, not a triumphal spirit of "we are right."
Years ago, when I informed the La Sierra University Church, by letter, of my withdrawal from membership, it was a full TWO YEARS before I even got a response from any of the pastoral staff! The letter they finally sent was, I am quite sure, a basic template form with my name filled in.
Some time later, some woman from the church whom I did not know phoned my home (because my name had been assigned to her). She assumed I was still a member. When I told her I was not, she abruptly excused herself and hung up! Some warm feeling that gave me! |
Paulcross
Registered user
Username: Paulcross
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 11:27 pm: | |
I have five personal acquantences who are former SDA pastors each of whom has left the "safety" of the church to one degree or another and each has a different story. Their story and mine and my deepening relationship with Jesus are the only basis for this comment.
I am sickened everytime one of these stories gets run up the flagpole. [Last time I visited with my folks my mom pulled out one such story she taped from 3ABN - for my benefit and inspiration. I sit and listen, sometimes, and fuss internally.]
The sda org. can pump these stories up but when have they ever really listened to the stories we have to tell of our turning to the Father. I don't know this man's story but from my experience I would really question whether this fellow spent those years away seeking Jesus, listening to the Spirit and growing in a fellowship.
When we go looking for peace we usually do one of two things; (1) we have been growing and maturing and we back and pick up the path where we left it or (2) if we have NOT dealt with the basic emptiness and pain in our life we try to recreate or return to the "idealized past".
The "great rift" between sda and myself is the fact that I was drowning and suffocating in and because of Adventism. I was dying!
The hand of God reached out to me through, an FA, non-sda CHRISTIAN friends, three other denominations and ALPHA to name just a few. NOT ONE positive input from sda directed me to Jesus.
This man may be going back to old ground but my guess is that it is to restart a journey that he sidestepped long ago.
Enough said form me for now.
Paul Cross
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1789
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 1:48 pm: | |
Paul, I have exactly the same impression. In spite of the "talk" of Adventists about love, a forgiving God, etc., they (in general) do not know how to offer Jesus to a seeking heart.
My husband attends a weekly Bible study made up of 5 men. Interestingly, two are former Adventists, and one is a never-been-SDA physician who went through LLU Medical School and is now employed by the university. Just this morning the physician was telling his group about struggling with discussions with Adventist(s) at work who talk about God being a good God, a loving God--a God who would never punish eternally, etc.
The conversations frustrate him because these people feel quite content in their personal understanding of a God who actually is in their image.
A LOT of Adventists are in this "moral influence" boat which endorses the idea that God is all forgiveness and love--wrath and justice are somehow not part of the picture. (I think perhaps this idea has a definite West Coast flavor and reflects Graham Maxwell and Jack Provonsha who taught at Loma Linda for three decades or so.)
Jesus's death was a great object lesson of God's love and a great example of living for God--but to these "liberal" Adventists, His death was not primarily about THEIR sin. In fact, it wasn't primarily about sin at all. It was about showing people how much God loved them. It wasn't technically necessary for salvation.
Why would these people even want to read the Bible and realize what a big, just, merciful, and SOVEREIGN God we serve? The God of the Bible would convict them of sin and would draw them to repentance, to the humility of kneeling before the cross of Jesus and surrendering to Him--to the submission of their egos to the point that they praised God for the blood of Jesus which would wash them clean.
Praise God for Jesus!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1384
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 5:35 pm: | |
If any SDA really wanted to know why any of us FAs left the Adventist church all they have to do is ask and, I am sure each of us would tell them and give Biblical reference. My feeling is they do not really want to know. When I was not rebaptized, I had been attending the SDA church on a regular basis. Two of the ministers had said they would come and talk to me about being baptized and neither of them ever called me. But then I was glad, as I had read about EGW on the internet and was out the door. Part of my leaving was triggered by one of the pastors. He had challenged each in our SS class to read the New Testament and I started doing that the first of 2004. That along with finding out about EGW made up my mind about going back to all the legalism I did not like. Forget about the snubs and lack of love and attention. I wanted the Bible and only the Bible. What I did not realize at the time it was Jesus I wanted and only Him. I have found Him now and with His help I will never let go. Thank you God for Jesus. You are awesome.
Diana |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1388
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 9:16 pm: | |
When I was living in VA I went to church on an irregular basis to see some SDA friends. The pastor that was there was a good pastor and I became friends with him and his wife. One sabbath after church my friends and I were talking with the pastor about all the missing members. No one was doing a thing about contacting them. I offered to call some of the people and invite them back. The pastor was going to let me call them and was going to send me their names and last phone numbers. Remember, I was not an SDA and I was the only one who offered to do anything. I am not patting myself on the back, but illustrating what the members do when one is missing from their church. The pastor was transferred to another church closer to his children and I did not get the information until just before I moved away. So I did not call anyone. I am so thankful I never had the opportunity to call anyone. God had something else in mind for me and I had to come here to find it. Thank You God. You are awesome.
Diana |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 339
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 8:55 am: | |
When one becomes an "apostate Protestant" the general attitude seems to be "good riddance to bad rubbish".
One man's trash is another Man's treasure! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1793
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 9:05 am: | |
So true, Freeatlast!
Colleen |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 124
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 9:11 am: | |
Your comment about "liberal" adventists focusing too much on the love and forgiveness of God is interesting Colleen in light of all the time we spend harping on the legalism of adventism. It would appear to be a dichotomy.
But. I heard a professor say in college the opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy. So maybe these aren't true oppostites. The true opposite could be 1. The idea of an uncaring God who either needs someone to be perfect to get his attention or who doesn't really care that much if a person sins or not and periodically offers blanket forgiveness. vs. 2. The idea of an unendingly caring God who is daily involved in our lives and a God who unendingly loves us regardless of what we do.
What do you think?
Pensively,
Hannah
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1796
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 10:13 am: | |
Good questions, Hannah. The bottom line, I'm beginning to see, is really what JEsus did on the cross.
The liberal Adventists who say God is eternally loving and "wouldn't punish sinners forever" and "didn't pour out His wrath against sin on Jesus as He hung on the cross" are ignoring large portions of the Bible.
If God is (and He is!) forgiving and loving, then He must also be just and have wrath against sin. There is no justice if there is no reaction against evil. It is a physical law (ahem--there's that unpleasant word, yet God authored all law!) that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
If this is true (and it is!) in the physical world, it must be true at all levels of reality. There is a heresy called "the governmental view of atonement" devised by Hugo Grotius, a Dutch theologian and jurist, in the very early 17th century. This theory says (maybe you've heard this) that because God is sovereign and the author of all morality, He could decide to forgive us just because He is God. He made the rules, so if He wanted to forgive us just because He loves us, He could. Jesus wouldn't have HAD to die for our sins. God can forgive just because He is God.
On the surface that looks logical. It misses, however, two things: first, it ignores the revelation in Scripture (which we believe to be the inspired word of God) that says sin always requires a penalty. Second, it ignores the physical law that says for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
If there were no penalty for sin, there would be no reaction to evil. It would continue to spread unopposed.
The reason we can forgive one another is precisely because Jesus died and paid the penalty. We can turn our anger and trampled justice over to God, confident that He is just and will deal justly with all transgressions. We can forgive because Jesus' blood gives us the legal permission to let go of our right to get even and allow Him to execute justice.
Ever notice that forgiveness between people is not a big item of discussion in the OT? The law, in fact, was full of penalties people had to pay for trampling each other's right.
Since the cross, however, we are commanded to take our wrongs to the foot of the cross. Jesus commanded us to forgive our brothers--over and over again! Jesus has now paid the price; we don't have to. Now we answer directly to Him. We take our own transgressions to the cross where we find His payment has covered them, and we take our wounds to the cross where we find His blood to heal our wounds instead of the payment from our offender.
The problem with the liberal emphasis on God's love is not that LOVE is the problem. It's that they've watered down His love so it is not powerful; it is not opposed to evil. They've painted a tolerant God who can brush aside sin because He "loves" us.
But God cannot brush aside sin. His goal is not to let us off the hook--Jesus dying does not let us of the hook. His goal is to restore us to Himself and to make us holy. That can only happen when we recognize that there is a true price for our sins. It is a price we do not have to pay, but it is a price which bonds us to Jesus for eternity.
The liberal emphasis on love tends to downplay or outright deny that our salvation is literally purchased by a blood-price which Jesus paid because God's law requires death in payment for sin. What Jesus did on the cross is central to Christianity. If we turn away from His death and shed blood as a literal atonement required for sin, we turn aside into heresy.
In Jesus we don't just get "forgiven" ; we get reborn!
Colleen |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 395
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 1:03 pm: | |
The SDA's rally behind the age old question of "How can a loving God send people to an eternal hell?". Teaching that the lost are just burned up in a moments time really doesn't make sense. How are those like Hitler be punished more severly than just someone who was just an unbeliever in that teaching? Do they burn longer?
They say to teach an etenal hell, is saying God isn't fair. That's right, God isn't fair....he's just. And so are his ways. If he was fair, we'd all be lost. It really concerns me to hear that the teachings of eternity only revolve around heaven and not hell. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1797
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 1:21 pm: | |
Well, yes, Pw--I was taught that people will burn in direct proportion to the heinousness of their sins. Satan will burn longest. That's how I knew that when I discovered I wasn't saved, at least it would be a quick burn. I knew I hadn't done anything THAT bad.
(Had I?)
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 195
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 1:35 pm: | |
Yes, and Graham Maxwell, and now Dan Smith, are telling all the college kids. Don't worry, there is no punishment at all--you just die. What kind of a God would have a justice system where the most heinous criminals would not have to face Judgment in an afterlife? Stan |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 569
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 1:39 pm: | |
Colleen, that's one thing that makes Adventism so heretical. Jesus said that rejecting him is an eternal sin! Yes, it is THAT bad. SDAs tend to have such a view towards sin (and I have seen this recently on the RS forum), that they think that sin isn't that bad if you're trying hard to be perfect, etc. And they also don't have a comphrensive enough view of sin and what is sinful.
And they certainly don't believe Jesus when He says that rejecting Him is an eternal sin which requires eternal punishment! 
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on April 15, 2005) |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 396
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 2:14 pm: | |
Well, basically according to the SDA belief, if you're not good enough for heaven, don't worry, you will only suffer hell fire for a moment and it's all over and done with. Hardly what Jesus and the Bible actually teach about eternal punishment.
And yes, that's one word the SDA love to play with, eternal punishment is not eternal punishing, therefore it must have an end. Oh really? Then why does the Bible speak of fire that is never quenched and where their worm does not die? |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 198
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 2:48 pm: | |
Jeremy, I agree with your explanation. The Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, is so immeasurably valuable and great and powerful and loving, and His Salvation so Eternal in its purpose and effects, that to reject Him is to incur a penalty that will last as long as His own Eternity! |
Greg
Registered user
Username: Greg
Post Number: 105
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 6:39 pm: | |
Possibly proving Colleen's point, I ran across this article in the online Adventist Review tonight, entitled "Faithful in Babylon" by Samir Salmenovic. At the time he wrote the article, Salmenovic was pastor of the Church of the Advent Hope in New York, NY, but now pastors the Crosswalk church in Loma Linda/Redlands, CA.
Most of the article I agree with, however, the following quote sounds like the "liberal Adventist view" Colleen was referring to above:
quote:It's all about "loving well." When the disciples came to Jesus, He said, "Look, I can't promise you anything-it will be a lousy life. Do you still want to be a Christian?" He was practically discouraging people. But He did promise one thing. He offered one thing that was worth everything. He said, "I offer you only one thing: I can teach you to love well." And that's worth everything! Is there any better promise in life?
Don't get me wrong--learning to love well is IMPORTANT, but what's missing here is the death of Jesus on the cross, saving all who believe in him from the condemnation of our sins. Jesus is worth everything, because without him, we wouldn't even be able to love. And there is a better promise in life for believers--that we have been clothed in Jesus' righteousness and will spend eternity with him!
Greg
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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 570
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 7:26 pm: | |
Wow, how blasphemous that he thinks he can come up with words of Jesus--He offers us only one thing and He doesn't offer us eternal life through Himself??!
Jeremy |
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