| Author | Message | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi FAF'S I know we had a tread dealing with the pope, but this is not exactly how to deal with theology,.. it's how to deal with my parents who are sending me one letter after another, just in an absolute panic over our change of denomination, in reference to the pope. Here are the last two letters they sent me. How would you respond? My response to the first letter is at the end of this document. I NEED SOME HELPÖ IíM SO EXHAUSTED FROM THIS WHOLE BATTERING RAM I COULD JUST CUT OFF RELATIONSHIPS ALL TOGETHER AND I DONíT WANT TO DO THAT. We know what we believe, we know we are BIG TIME second guessed, we know they are confused about our sincerity, and to top it off were not perfect, so they have all kinds of things to point to that work for their case. Lisa the sick and tired Dear Lisa and Ted, I suppose you are like us you didn't get to see the Pope's funeral. Marcy did and also a friend of ours. They said President Bush, his wife, Clinton and I believe the elder Bush and wife knelt for 5 minutes in front of the casket of the pope. That made me think of the verse, "The whole world wondered after the beast" or as the modern KJV states, "marveled after the beast". His funeral was the largest religious gathering in history. This is the first time a president of the US went to a funeral of the pope. We are certainly living in interesting times. I hope you have a wonderful week end. Love you lots, Mom Dear Lisa and Ted, Ted please read and respond. I was at your house when Ted said how painful finding out all this was and wanted some answers but we have not had any response from Ted. It was a shock for the rest of the family when you decided to no longer be Adventists. It was no shock to Mom and I from what we observed in fact we were surprised at how long you remained Adventists. I still remember you coming home from college stating that all religions led to truth. If you were to travel to India you would certainly change your mind on that one. Mom remembers when you were first married that you said Ted hated to go to church. You had a very bad experience at the academy. You guys went through a lot of stress. It seemed like you went quite a while without studying your Bibles. Then there was the extreme stress and physical demands on the family with work and building a house. When you go without food you eventually starve to death. The same is true in a spiritual sence. I don't doubt your sincerity but I have a question for you. Are you at the point now where you wouldn't even read a book published by Pacific Press? In the back and forth correspondence via email I never got adequate answers to many of the questions I posed. I remember a very sensitive daughter who was fearful of hearing about end times. Lets take a look at Bible prophecy about the beast power of Revelation. Of course Revelation is a about Jesus and the final outcome of this world and who wins in the end but there are some pertinent facts brought out as all scripture is given for a reason. (1 Tim. 3:: 16) Martin Luther as well as the other reformers recognized who the beast power of Revelation was and until recent years almost all protestant churches believed that. It was only a short time before my birth that the Pope was restored to his position by the Italian government. Papers of the day stated that the deadly wound was healed. Isn't that interesting. You don't have to be a scholar to recognize the many Biblical identifying marks of the false woman of Revelation. Then when you have the longest time prophecy in the Bible that fits, it nails it down. Would anyone in 1929 have recognized that the Catholic faith would have made such a marvelous recovery. God knew. It wasn't long ago that JF Kennedy ran for president. Adventists were not the only ones concerned with having a Catholic president. It was the first. When you read this in your Bible does this make you think. All the world wondered after the beast. A more modern translation uses the word marveled. If it were not for the Catholic Church we would still undoubtedly have communism occupying Russia and parts of Europe today. This Pope has done many marvelous things and we should praise him for that but with age you see things from a little different perspective. Anti Semitism carried out by Hitler's regime didn't happen in a vacuum it was brought on by the "blessing" of the Catholic church and the Pope appologizing at the Western wall in Jerusalem does not undo the centuries of horendous persecution the Jews went through. The same thing happened in Russia with the programs (the Jews were persecuted killed and run out of the country.) Mom said the Russian Orthodox church went about with a cross in one hand and a sword in the other. The Russian Orthodox Church is a branch off the Catholic Church. This is fairly recent history that any one can learn about. Find the book The Final Solution. It is about what happened in Germany and what the attitude of the people in Europe was that brought it about. I don't know the authors name. Read about what happened to the Jews in Spain as well. History has a way of being rewritten or at least forgotten. You don't have to be an Adventist to believe as I do about the Catholic church you just have to be a student of history and study your Bible. We love you too and pray for you folks all the time. Please remember us in prayer. Love, Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted & Lisa Boyl-Davis To: Nona Boyl Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 9:36 PM Subject: Re: Pope's funeral Dear Mom, Your and my idea of the interpertation are very different, but I love you anyway. Love, Lisa | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1355 Registered: 3-2004  |
Lisa, That must be difficult dealing with family like that, especially your parents. Pray about them, as I am sure you are doing. Then, pray some more. There is no good way to deal with SDAs. I have put you and your parents on my prayer list. God is working on them. That, I am sure, you know. If you are like me, you want to see God's results yesterday. Remember we have an awesome God and He will do His work in His time. Diana | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 302 Registered: 3-2004  |
Lisa, it seems they believe that you got so liberal that you just no longer care about important things--which to them is the Sabbath, doctrines etc. My suggestion is that you are going to have to show them that you've found Jesus and are on fire for him. That's just going to take time and more time. When they see that you now react differently, that you can say, "I don't know" or perhaps even to something--"you may be right" that disarms them and plants seeds. They seem to want to discuss doctrinal things via e-mail. Only you and your husband will know after praying about it if that's the right answer. As to reading a book, I would personally jump at the chance to read it if they would agree to read one that I would suggest and then everyone would sit down at the end and discuss them both prayerfully. Here again, you'll get clear direction from the Holy Spirit as you pray about it. Praise God... | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1765 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dearest Lisa, Many of us on here have your parents as our parents. The result is that you and your husband, as well as your parents will for sure be in my prayers. I guess your parents don't accept the mainstream Christian interpertation of 666 being Nero. I ran that one by my mom several years ago. She'd never heard of that interpertation. It is very hard dealing with Christians whose focus is endtimes prophecy and the Sabbath as opposed to what the focus of Christianity should be on, Jesus. My mom too was a bit irritated that for the first time in our countries history the flag was flown at halfstaff. I told her the pope was quite instramental in bringing about the end of communision is the former Soviet Union. I also told her that he tried to make ammends for the Catholic churches past wrongs in history and one show of dedication to this cause was that Pope John Paul attended a mosque sewrvice, several Jewish services as well asa meeting with leaders of other worlds religions, including Prostatents. Of course, SDA's don't see much difference between Sunday-keeping Christians and Catholics so those goodwill gesrures only show SDA's the dreaded Sunday laws as about to become a reality and it only reinforces their paranoia. It's really frustrating. Lisa, I'll keep your situtation in my prayers. | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dear FAF - You know, the funny thing about the accusations are the Ted and I have been the die hard SDA's, I mean no pepper, no caffeine, no TV, no meat, you name it... and we loved church... I really don't know what he's referring to except that we did question the DOCTRINE... THAT'S IT. We ASKED QUESTIONS. We were NOT rebellious, we were seeking TRUTH. Isn't it amazing that it's better in an SDA's mind to be rebelling against God than to question dogma?! Ted sent him a really great letter saying how much Jesus means to us and how obsessing on the future yields rotten fruit in a persons life, and we were commanded to not worry about tomorrow as tomorrow has enough worries of it's own. Well, that's the scoop for now. And today of all days there was an AWESOME sermon on the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It's a series. Couldn't be better timing. Lisa | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1756 Registered: 12-2003  |
As has already been said, Lisa--pray and share your experience with Jesus. I also like PraiseGod's idea re: agreeing to read their book if they'll read one of yours, and then meet to discuss what you've read. There's no one way to deal with questions and attitudes like your parents'--God will give you words and oopportunities as you trust Him in this situation. I feel for you. With prayers for you and Ted, Colleen | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2004 |
Lisa, Ironically I'm in the middle of this conversation with my grandparents. I was struck that your family brought up Luther and his identification of the Pope/Catholicism as anti-christ/beast. After sending them a letter of what we do and do not believe, the chosen "battle ground" has been to appeal to my respect for Luther, and then prove Adventism right by association. It's never easy to deal with family. I was with my mother this weekend and she just cries and cries. It's so painful to know I've broken her heart...and at this point, she just can't understand. But the advice I've received on here before, and that I've found to be true...is that don't let the conversation and all the paraphernalia they will bring up distract you from talking to them about Jesus. Get creative and always bring all the conversations somehow back to Him. When family wants me to talk about Sabbath and its importance, I talk about how the Sabbath signifies Jesus and His importance. When they talk about prophecy, I talk about how all prophecy is fulfilled in Him. I've found that by doing that, you can respond to the conversations and be actively willing to talk with them, without having to address all the "fluff" that just gets combattive and doesn't really mean alot. My prayers are with you! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 521 Registered: 1-2003 |
Lisa. And what does all this matter? Are you lost if you don't believe the Catholic church is the beast? How is this information supposed to impact us? Either Jesus saves and is all powerful and able to get us through whatever end time scenario there is or He isn't and it is all on our shoulders and what doctrines we believe. I don't understand all this...on Pastor O'Fill's site they kept talking about saving truth, IOW: the endtimes and Sabbath. So they have taken salvation away from Jesus put it back on us and the Law. I feel really sorry for your parents, my family and all the other SDA who live in fear of the Catholics. Even if they killed us, they can't separate us from the Father...Jesus said, John 10 The Shepherd and His Flock 1ìI tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them. 7Therefore Jesus said again, ìI tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 25Jesus answered, ìI did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one.î These texts always give me comfort. I think it is sad that SDA have the same problem as the Children of Isreal...IOW: They didn't believe Jesus could get them to the promised land and neither do the SDA! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 522 Registered: 1-2003 |
And Lisa...I also have to add this to what your parents said: (Not to pick on them, I have heard the same from my family!) Lets take a look at Bible prophecy about the beast power of Revelation. Of course Revelation is a about Jesus and the final outcome of this world and who wins in the end Lisa, they need to know that Jesus has already won the war...all that is left is for us to decide if we will accept His victory or not. Satan is a defeated foe (defeated 2000+ years ago)...is he still reaking havoc, yes, but we already know his fate. His fate was sealed. It isn't hanging in the balance. Read Colossians 2:13-15. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1763 Registered: 12-2003 |
Esther, what a great way to deal with your parents' arguments: turn everything back to Jesus. It meshes with Pheeki's text from John above. You're right Pheeki--that is a powerful text. I love the fact that it stresses that both Jesus and the Father have us in Their hands. We are held by a double grip and by Their singleness of purpose. Esther, I have to say, from the perspective of one who could be your mother, her crying over your "defection" is more about her than about you. I had to learn early in our boys' lives that their acquiscence or rebellion was theirs, not mine. Partly because I was a step-mom who had most of the responsibility for mothering our boys, I felt a lot of internal pressure for them to look good, perform well, and function at their full potential. I know that's a typcial mom-thing, but I felt the added pressure of doing it right to overcome the stigma of "step-mom". I can remember how privately I would cry that I couldn't succeed at getting Roy (now 22) to take his astonishing musical gift seriously and really practice. (As a former music teacher, his reluctance was no surprise, but because he was my child, I took it personally.) I remember Richard saying to me many times, "You have to let this go; if he refuses to give it everything, it's no reflection on you. His resistance is not about YOUR reputation. If he refuses to learn his piece well enough to perform well or win a competition, that's HIS "just deserts", not yours. You have to let it go." Well, Richard was right, of course. I gradually learned to keep a bit of emotional distance from Roy's (and then Nathanael's) performances. That stance took a lot of pressure off them, and it freed me up to see that they were their own persons. God sees me individually; my son's choices are not mine, and they are not public statements of my success as a mother. I understand how your mother feels, Esther--but I want to reassure you that you are not responsible for her tears. God is calling her to surrender her own insecurities and fears of failure to Him, also. He wants to be more real to her than are the subtle senses of judgment and pity she fears from her church associates. Jesus cannot hope to enter those places of fear and insecurity in her unless she becomes aware of them through experiencing pain. Keep praying for her, Esther, but you are a daughter of whom she can be very proud. Just look at the courage and authority with which you have allowed the Holy Spirit to empower you at your vibrant age. You mother may not see your integrity as a cause for praise right now, but if she is open to the Holy Spirit's call on her life, she will eventually recognize what an awesome work God has done in her daughter. Her distress right now is an issue between her and God; you can't (and shouldn't) fix it. This is one of those times of struggle and facing truth and surrender in her life. Just know that God is dealing with her, and pray that you will be able to love her for God--whatever that might mean. (It won't necessarily look like what SHE thinks it should mean!) With continuing prayers for you, Esther-- Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 119 Registered: 6-2001 |
This discussion came up while I was over visiting my father-in-law and his family. Someone remarked (dourly) that we are definitely living in the end times, and that the next pope will likely be the last pope or something like that. I pretended to be oblivious to the gloom and said cheerily, "Wow, that would be great if it's true. We will get to see Jesus very soon!" The person stumbled and said something like, well, yes, of course, as in "that's what i meant all along." I think I can get away with statements like that because I have never been an Adventist. But it is quite contradictory, why Adventists are so opposed to Sunday laws, the Catholic church, etc. If the denomination's whole focus is the Second "Advent," they should welcome "signs" the world is coming to an end. Paradoxally, Hannah | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 187 Registered: 7-2000  |
Hannah, when one's real hope is in legalism and "becoming perfect enough" to be saved, he reads the "signs" with feelings of fear and dread - and well he should! Bob | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well, as always when pressures pound upon my head, God takes the opportunity to clarify some things for me, kind of a repeat of what you all said in the above comments. Mainly the big difference between myself and SDA is that an SDA believes that if he doesn't have the facts straight, that he can become deceived, and therefore lost. That puts a lot of power on the liar, huh?! I believe, however, that Jesus has sent me his Counselor and Comforter, to lead me into all truth, and the pressure is on the Spirit to keep me straight, and on Jesus to keep His promises to me and save me, no matter how messed up my ideas might be on difficult passages of Scripture, etc... The reason I rely on Jesus is that I predictably get things goofed up myself. The biggest revelation for me is that when Jesus said DO NOT WORRY ABOUT TOMORROW, He was not only suggesting, but commanding. It's becoming clear that He wants us to be salt and light, and doesn't want us to worry, and that if one chooses to worry, one can not be salt and light, therefore end time/current event fixations prohibit salting and lighting the world for Jesus, which is what I'm here to do. The good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is such good news for me. Lisa | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 164 Registered: 8-2004 |
"Perfect love casteth out all fear." | ||
| Gmatt Registered user Username: Gmatt Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lisa, I can so identify with what it is like to deal with parents who just cannot understand your new approach to what "church" is really all about. Even though I am old enough to be your mom, it is the same song and dance when we visit my in-laws. My mother-in-law brings up the end times every time we see them (which is pretty often). Last week when she asked whether I thought the time was very near I just told her, "I really have no idea. My focus is on Who is coming, not when it will happen." I have to add that I love my mother-in-law dearly. That one aspect of her thinking process does get to me, but in every other way I would never trade her for anyone else. And I frequently remind myself that she raised a pretty wonderful son! | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 |
Gmatt; I like the way you've emphasized focus. I am with you there! That has been my goal in responding with the traditional SDA stuff. I have found that if anything can disarm and make headway it is this. Let me share a favorite quote on thisÖ ìThe only being who should have recurring nightmares about end times is Satan.î [ìGodís Eye Viewî ñ p.5] When I first read that I immediately thought of this whole paranoia thing in sda-ism and who the focus is all wrong. | ||
| Gmatt Registered user Username: Gmatt Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 |
Paulcross, Great quote! Wish you had mentioned that to me when I was eleven years old and going nightly to the scariest evangelistic meetings on earth. I'll admit I was probably a little more sensitive than the average child, but I can still remember my heart pounding with fear when they turned the auditorium dark and blasted the earthquake sounds over the speakers along with flashes of make-believe lightning. Then I would go home and try to sleep through the nightmares. It was no wonder my hair started to fall out. (And I was not the kid you would ever have pegged as freaky!) I thank God that when I finally did hear the pure gospel of Jesus, my heart somehow knew it was right and I was able to start letting go of all the negativity and confusion. Letting go isn't an over-night process but I have to trust God's timing for all of this. Who wrote "God's Eye View"? Gmatt | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 |
Gmatt "God's Eye View" is written by Tommy Tenny and published by Thomas Nelson Publishers, [2002]. The book is on the role of "worship" as a means of keeping our perspective when all the evidence is negative, unsettling and threatens to pull our sight off Jesus. When I'm fighting oppression from "whacky" teachings it sure helps me. One of the greatest gifts that the "body of Christ" has given me is an understanding of worship in its many phases. That is something sda didn't teach, encourage or approve of, not so long ago I heard an sda write-off the worship emphasis in the CHURCH as all about emotion. He didn't have a clue! sorry - threatening to turn into a rant. Paulcross | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1766 Registered: 12-2003 |
Paul, I agree with you about worship. I've found that playing praise and worship music if I feel depressed or anxious is extremely helpful. I believe it's hard for Satan to stick around in a place filled with praise to Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 525 Registered: 1-2003 |
The unreal thing is...on other forums, I have given testimony of what it is like to grow up SDA...fear for breakfast, lunch and supper! And none of the SDA believe me. I have been told that I am the only one who experienced this fatalism growing up SDA. How can they honestly say this? They are still living it themselves! | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2004 |
Thanks for your thoughts above Colleen! It really helped me put it in perspective. I second guess myself and wonder if I should've even said anything to my parents, or if I should "be all things to all people" to them so this wouldn't hurt them so much. I know that there is alot of personal issues there... and my family has had its share of tumultuous times. This thing is making all the progress we made in relationships take 4 steps back. But, I know I can never even pretend to be SDA again. And for that I am so thankful! But we all struggle with our families. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 323 Registered: 7-2004 |
Pheeki, if it means anything to you, I can't recall a time in my "tender youth" when I wasn't afraid of God because of what I was being taught in Sabbath School. If I wasn't afraid, then I was feeling guilty, not about any one thing, just a sort of wet soggy blanket of guilt that covered everything. I tried to love Jesus, but it was hard because he came to be my example, and I was very poor at following that example. The most beautiful moment in my life, and the moment that I feel deeply in love with Jesus was when I realized that he not only came to show me what a perfect life looks like, he also has covered all my sins with that same perfection. I didn't learn that fact in SDA churches and schools. I learned that Jesus loves me that much by personal study in the scriptures. With Esther I can truly say that I cannot even pretend to be SDA again. It represents everything I cannot ever be again. My heart cries out for all of the people still trapped in its bondage. Jesus only Belva | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 51 Registered: 3-2005 |
Pheeki, About you being the only one who grew up with the fear freely gifted you by SDA ideology, I thought for years I was the only one to experience such emotional pain from the current event/end time obsession. I still remember night mares for weeks because of a surprise end time act during church where, right in the middle of the pastors sermon, police - or at least they were dressed that way - came flying into the church saying they were going to arrest us because we were worshiping on Sabbath - I hit the floor and stayed under the pew for the remainder of the service. Then I attended a Bible class at WWC, a college class about 40ish in number, we went around the room and nearly all related terrors similar to mine, describing acid that was filling their stomach's as they even discussed the issue some many years later. Donít forget, part of Adventism is massive amounts of denial, preventing the hard questions, and neglecting to look at the fruits of these beliefs. ESTHER, About family pain, no, this is a life long pain that Jesus SLOWLY heals. You are not alone friend. And as the scripture advises, I will help to bear your burden by stopping right now and getting on my face before God and asking Him to lift your burden of family pain. Lisa | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1772 Registered: 12-2003 |
They can't admit to fear because they are too close to it to see it. I suspect, though, that they often feel anger and irritation--and those often are masquerades for fear. I know I lived in great fear, and at the same time, I lived with such a sense of privilege. I was on of the "chosen"!! I LOVED being Adventist--chosen--RIGHT! I never consciously asked myself how I could be both paralyzed by fear and privileged at the same time. Definitely I experienced cognitive dissonance. I had no way to reconcile the opposing feelings I felt. I would guess, though, that in spite of the arrogance we sense, they have deep confusion and fear. I speak from experience--as we all do. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 559 Registered: 10-2004  |
I still think there should be some way that we could empty the GC with lawsuits for the trauma and abuse caused by them! (Especially for things like Gmatt and Lisa talked about.) Jeremy | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 109 Registered: 1-2003  |
Paul, thanks for the reference to ""God's Eye View" is written by Tommy Tenny" I thought I'd read most of his books but I guess I somehow missed that one. I've heard him speak many times in person and you have no doubt of his commitment to GOD and the blood of Christ when he preaches. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1377 Registered: 3-2004 |
It is my opinion that SDAs cannot admit to having problems, be it fear that they feel because of the church dotrine or family or personal or work problems, because if they did admit it, it might show that they are not perfect. And they have to be perfect to get into heaven. Thank God, I have Jesus perfection and do not have to be concerned about being perfect. I am a sinner and Jesus died for me and has thrown my sins into the depth of the ocean. God you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1778 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, Diana. Speaking of suits, Jeremy--during our leaving, Richard was seized with recurring feelings of anger over the deception and manipulation the church practices. He said, "I'd love to sue them for all the tithes and offerings I paid them!" He came to terms with it, though, realizing he gave it in good faith even though it may not have been received in good faith! There are so many feelings of betrayal, remorse, sadness, anger, and fear that emerge as one discovers the truth and decides to walk out of the church and follow Jesus. Thankfully, He walks with us and enters our pain with His healing and gives us new identities in Him. Colleen |
