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Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1894
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |     |
BTW, I need to share what I just read. I've been reviewing Dale Ratzlaff's newly edited version of his booklet, The Truth about Seventh-day Adventist Truth which will be printed within a few days. I'm going to quote from it:
"There are two formulas that are suggested for salvation. One is the basic Christian formula. The other is the one often promoted by the cults:
Faith in Christ = Salvation + Good Works
or
Faith in Christ + Good Works = Salvation....
"...The first formula is biblical. However, it is the second formula that the cults will always use. They will place works before salvation. What works? Each group will have its own unique list that must be followed to the letter of the law, or else salvation is out of reach." (Here he references Rick Branch's "Profile, Patterns in the Cults" in Watchman Expositor, Vol. 11, No. 2, 1994)
"Following are summaries of the teachings of Ellen White, whose writings 'continue as an authoritative source of truth': She said that William Miller's 1843 date-setting, second-coming message was a 'saving message' and pastors who resisted thijs message had 'the blood of souls'upon them. Faith in Christ was not enough. They had to add to their faith the "good work" of date setting. Churches that rejected the revised 1844 sanctuary "truth" fell from God's favor and became "Babylon" even though they continued to have faith in Christ! She said that the people in these churches were deceived by Satan, and their prayers were useless. Ellen White said that Christians should never say "I am saved." She said that only those who keep the Sabbath will be saved in the last days. She taught that there will be no change in character at the second coming. She said we are not saved by faith alone and we must live a life of "perfect obedience" before God's promises will be fulfilled to us. While some SDAs reject this theology, it is nonetheless historic Adventist teaching endorsed by their "messenger of God," Ellen White.
"Most historic Adventists have little assurance of salvation. Many cannot tell you when they were born again, if, indeed, they were."
While he did not overtly say, "Adventism is a cult," he very clearly conveys that message in this passage. He goes on to discuss the extreme deception Adventists practice in order to appear to be mainstream and to hook people into their evangelistic programs. He discusses deliberate cover-ups and also the fact that people are brought into the church prior to being taught all the implications of Adventism. Etc.
Dale is a careful scholar and author, and he chooses his phrasing in such a way as to allow the evidence he cites speak for itself. That way people draw conclusions based on the quotes and facts he presents, not on the basis of his own analysis. Of course, his writing really IS his analysis, but instead of stating his conclusion in terms of his personal opinions, he lets the evidence stand alone.
I will never forget the first time--after we left the church--that a friend of mine said, "How do you feel knowing you were in a cult?"
I inwardly flinched, thinking, "It's not a cult!" I had the notion that cults were things like the Moonies, Jim Jones's group, etc. (Well, they are...) It actually took a while for me to see why she called it a cult. As I continued to study the Bible, the reality of what I'd been in became increasingly clear. I realized, finally, that Mormonism was cult--I'd actually not believed that as an Adventist, either-- and Adventism shared many aspects of Mormonism.
It's a very uncomfortable thing to realize that I was influenced by "doctrines of demons". Yet, really, how different is that from being born dead in sin and unable to choose Jesus without divine intervention?
We are ALL influenced by doctrines of demons in some way!
Praise God that He calls us to Himself and grants us grace and mercy. Further, He doesn't leave us to scramble for Him alone. He calls us, shepherds us, and brings us safely home.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 247
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 6:33 pm: | |
Colleen, Dale may indeed have his reasons for not wanting to say absolutely that Adventism is a cult. Some of what you quoted, I saw in Cultic Doctrine, and he did appear to give his opinions at that time. In that book, he stopped short of even calling early historical SDA a cult--he used the word cultic, or cult-like. I am on your side on this one, as I definitely agree with Robert Morey, and the late Anthony Hoekema, who had the nerve to dispute with Dr Martin, and write a book naming SDA as one of the 4 major cults. That book, published by Eerdmans may still be available, as has a lot of great insight. Maybe there will be a time when Dale will come out more forcefully, and I personally believe he may have good reasons for not stating it at this time. I just wish we had more clarity on this issue coming from people like Hank Hanegraf. I do plan to contact Robert Morey soon, but he may be willing to listen more to our concerns, and in the past was interested in writing a book on SDA being a cult. Stan
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Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 239
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 9:14 pm: | |
On the subject of "antichrist," I share the views expressed by Jeremy and Colleen above.
Simply because an individual, a group or a denomination publicly expresses belief in Jesus Christ does not automatically remove them from the possibility of being an "antichrist."
In his dealings with heresy in the Corinthian church, the apostle Paul confronted the deceptive power of false teachings about who Jesus is:
2 Corinthians 11:3,4:
3 "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
4 "For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully."
Paul recognized that these false "Christian" teachers offered:
1. Another Jesus.
2. A different spirit.
3. A different gospel.
How dangerous was it to accept "another" Jesus, or a "different" spirit or "different" gospel?
A few sentences later, Paul summarized the origin and the consequences of those false teachings:
13."For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14."No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15. "Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."
Bob
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Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 348
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 5:29 am: | |
I posted this a while back somewhere, but there are a lot of new people here, so..........
Islaam believes:
*They are waiting for a messiah, he is the Mahdi, he will cause the whole world to convert to Islaam or be killed.
*He will appear just before the end of the world in a time of great tribulation.
*He will seize Turkey through force. (what about the fact that Turkey is the only Islaamic nation standing with Bush?)
*After uniting all of Islaam he will take over the entire world in the name of Islaam.
*There will be great prosperity including gold and silver for his followers.
*After this is accomplished the Mahdi will rule for five, seven or nine years, depending on which tradition is followed.
*The end of the world will come followed by the judgement of Allah.
Let's compare teachings
--Muslim-Mahdi will unite the Muslim world
--Christian-antichrist will unite 10 kingdoms(Rev. 17:12)
--Muslim-Gold and silver
--Christian-antichrist will honor his god with gold and silver Dan.11:38
--Muslim- will rule 5,7 or 9 years
--Christian-antichrist will rule for 7 years Dan. 9:27
--Muslim-Mahdi will come from the east
--Christian-antichrist will be great toward the east Dan. 8:9
Perry Stone interviewed a Muslim man asking him how he would describe the end of the world, his reply should chill you to the bone. He said:
Quote"In the last days there will be earthquakes, famines and strange signs from Allah. There will come several prophets claiming to be prophets in the name of Allah, but they will be false, we are warned not to follow them. They will work in line with the antichrist. Then our Mahdi will rise to power. He will come according to tradition, riding on a white horse. Jesus will appear and follow the Mahdi. We believe the Mahdi will come to Jerusalem and liberate it from the Jews and Christians. He will convert people to Islaam when Jesus tells everyone that he lied, that He is not the Son of God, because God cannot have a Son. Jesus will perform miracles to prove He is Jesus. He will point people to the Mahdi, and will kill the Jews and tell the Christians to forsake the idea of the Trinity and forsake the Cross. Islaamic justice will rule the earth. Those who rebel against the Mahdi will be punished, and some say with a sword." end quote
Well there we have the antichrist riding on the white horse with a bow and no arrow, a crown of a conqueror--Rev. 6:2
The two witnesses of Rev. 11
The false prophet performing miracles,
Muslims denying the Son
I believe Mahdi=Antichrist
I beleive that the RCC could be the false prophet as they are uniting the religions now with the virgi Mary, both religions pray to here, believe she was Jesus' mother, the apparitions and co-redemption beleifs are just too obvious for me to see anything else at this time, but, of course, we don't know for sure.
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Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 188
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 7:50 am: | |
That's quite a summary Sabra! |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 566
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:58 am: | |
Sabra, I am going to open a discussion on CARM with what you wrote...let's see what the SDA's have to say. |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 2:31 pm: | |
Belva,
I found a site that discusses Islam and goddess worship as well as the Baal connection. Here's an excerpt:
quote:Muslims usually argue that their ëAllahí is the same deity as the Judeo-Christian God. For sincere Jews or Christians, that statement ought to be considered as a profound blasphemy, since it destroys their concept of God. By accepting such a thesis one is admitting Islam as the true religion, above Judaism and Christianity. One has not come across any arguments that can prove that ëAllahí is just another name for the Judeo-Christian God. The Islamic scholar Caesar Farah states: "There is no reason, therefore, accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews." (Ceasar Farah, Islam: Beliefs and Observations (New York, 1987), 28.) And as their characters are examined, they seem to be of a completely different nature and reveal contradicting scriptures.
ëAllahí, in fact, has a genealogy that can be traced through Yemen to Babylon, the mother of all idolatry. In Babylon, paganism began at the time of Nimrod, the alleged builder of the Tower of Babel. After the confusion of languages, Babylonian idolatry spread all over the world. Nimrod had been dei-fied and was known as Baal, Molech,.... and finally, as Allah. The Baal worship was conducted by sacrifices, prostrations and kissing the idol, (See I. Kings 19:18) which was the same type of service conducted at the Kaaba and other places in Arabia. There are also traces of a direct Baal worship among the Arabs: "And God helped him [King Uzziah of Juda] against the Philistines, and against the Arabians that dwelt in Gur-baal, and the Mehunims [probably Mineanites from Yemen]." (II Chron. 26:7) It was common to add Baalís name to the city where he was worshipped and thus it was obviously so in Gur.
I can't verify the site's credibility, but it's another source with similar information to what you stated previously. Here's the link: http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/fem4.htm |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 405
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 6:23 pm: | |
Heretic, thank you so much for that link. It would be a great disservice to the True God, whom we serve, to equate him with the false worship that has dogged him throughout the ages of man. We need to stay on Elijah's team and fight the priests of Baal, wherever they may appear in our lives.
Give me only Jesus.
Belva |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1458
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 10:36 pm: | |
Thank you, each of you, for your information on the Muslim religion. I did not know about the background of Allah and just thought that was the Muslim word for God. Boy, was I mistaken. It is blasphemy to equate God with Allah, because of the paganism from which Allah came. I will not make that mistake again.
I will borrow from Belva, Give me only Jesus. He is awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1911
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 11:03 pm: | |
How interesting. I remember when, a year or so after we joined Trinity church, I first heard someone say that Allah was a false god. I had learned that Allah was the same as the One True God, that the people of Islam just hadn't learned about Jesus. In fact, Adventist evangelism was based on that assumption, and when SDA missionaries succeeded in introducing a Muslim to Jesus, that person did not have to leave Islam; they could just remain Muslim but have Jesus.
I began to realize how confusing that was when I heard Allah called a false God. Combinging Allah with Jesus is syncretism--mixing selected parts of two religions to make a popular hybrid. Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, not God. One really can't remain a Muslim and embrace Jesus as God and the Savior of mankind. Remaining Muslim while professing Jesus is contradictory, and publicly being "Muslim" means that person is endorsing Islam simply by claiming to be one. Yet a person cannot serve both God and a god.
What one espouses is a statement of that person's beliefs and endorsement.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1462
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 8:42 am: | |
As I read this post again, I got to wondering, how many Muslims know the background of their Allah?? I can imagine many of them are like many SDAs who do not know about EGW and her prophecies which did not come true, her plagiarism, etc. I wonder how many would believe in their Allah, once they know the truth. Again, like the SDAs, it depends on where they are and if they are searching for a better understanding of God or are uncomfortable with what they believe. There are so many variables.
Is there a Christian ministry to the Muslims and is there a website like this one for former muslims??
Just thinking out loud.
Diana
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Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 351
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 5:44 am: | |
I know there are several Muslims that are now Christians that evangelize to them. Their stories are amazing. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 265
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 10:03 am: | |
Sabra, I don't know if you saw Dennis Fischer's post on the "Once to every man and nation" thread yesterday--it is fascinating to read there how many Muslims came to Christ through direct visions--Yes, these stories are amazing and demonstrate so well the sovereignty of God. Stan |
Dennisrainwater
Registered user
Username: Dennisrainwater
Post Number: 115
Registered: 8-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 2:28 pm: | |
Hey Sabra,
It looks like I've lost your current e-mail address -- could you e-mail me? Don't want to lose touch... :-(
Thanks!
Den <>< |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 410
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 7:27 pm: | |
Dear FAFers, I do find it somewhat healthy that we started this thread to talk about a man whom the SDAs have labeled "anti-christ" and have been willing to take our discussion beyond the Catholic Church to at least consider the fact that AC will be someone who isn't Catholic. I personally came to admire Pope John-Paul because he was a thoughtful, prayerful man who was willing to take a stand and support that stand, even if it wasn't popular. He obviously took seriously his committment to do the job he was elected to do, to the best of his ability, and by the grace of God. What I'm going to say next would garner me a shout of blasphemer from SDAs, but I truly believe that God himself places each of the popes in office. He is a leader, and Paul makes it clear that there is no one in a position of power who is not there by the direction and good graces of God himself.
Belva |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1923
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 11:52 pm: | |
Belva, I've had that thought, also. By extension, of course, even evil rulers are in place by God's sovereign authority.
I don't know how to explain it all, but I know we can trust God to glorify Himself. I do pray, though, that God will protect me from deception and that I'll be open and willing to recognize truth and reality when it happens. I don't want to miss God's doings like the Jews missed Jesus!
Colleen |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 475
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:03 am: | |
Here is a very interesting article written by Jere Patzer, NPUC president, in the latest Gleaner -- www.gleaneronline.org. Mr. Patzer attempts to ralley his constituency into renewed belief that the Catholic Church is indeed "The Beast". Besides the editoral (entitled "Adventist, Catholics, Hewlet-Packard"), another article of interest is "A Prodigal Daughter Comes Home" (found under North Pacific Union News). Here is the first sentence of the article...
"Every missing and former member who returns to God has his or her own unique story of responding to a Savior who never gives up."
I PRAISE GOD everyday that He did not give up on me!
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved"
(Eph. 1:3-6). |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 6:58 pm: | |
Dd,
Like you, I am so glad God did not give up on me also. I would love to tell J. Patzer my story. It was not the SDA church God took me to. He took me to a relationship with Him and it is so sweet and wonderful and He is so awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2068
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 10:09 pm: | |
Yes, I also praise God for not giving up on me. His calling is such an amazing thing.
Colleen |
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