| Author |
Message |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 812
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:20 am: |     |
Dennis, have you read Morey's book on the Sabbath? If so, any thoughts on it? |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 813
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:39 am: | |
Also, I bought Death and the Afterlife a few months ago through a reseller on Amazon.com for $5 or 6 ... it was the hardback edition. You may check there..... |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 275
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 4:19 pm: | |
I agree that the Robert Morey book is a great place to start. What is interesting about it is that he specifically addresses SDA viewpoints (among others) hen he's discussing various points.
That said, I have had more trouble over this issue than Sabbath. It's not a problem with the "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" but rather the part about ever-burning hell and exactly what it means. I've about come to the point of deciding that it's problematic to us because we are thinking in such simple terms here on earth.
As others have said, I trust the Lord with this one. I've not dropped it but I'm not obsessing over it either.
One real danger I find with annihilation is that since it's no big deal if you're lost, there really isn't that zeal to tell about your love for the Lord to bring people to Jesus.
Praise God... |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 84
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:43 pm: | |
I concur with Praise God, and Dennis about Dr Robert Morey, and for posting his website address above. I have attended Morey's church in Orange County from time to time. He has vigorously disagreed with Walter Martin about SDA being a cult, and he is convinced Martin was going to print a retraction to his previous position. But just one more book of his that has to be mentioned, and that is "Studies In The Atonement", This is a well written and easy to understand book. He, like me, is a great fan of the Hymns of the Faith, and in that book intersperses just wonderful Hymns, which makes reading it even more worshipful. Stan |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 482
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 6:15 pm: | |
Stan, that is interesting; I didn't know Dr. Morey considered SDAism a cult. One thing I have wondered about, is why have so few books been written about SDAism by never-been-SDA Christians? Why do you all think this is?
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1669
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 7:48 pm: | |
My own suspicion is that it's because Walter Martin declared the church not a cult in the mid-50s. Prior to that, it was considered cultic if not a cult. When I was a child and teenager in the late 50's and the 60's, being an Adventist was sort-of an embarrassment. It was something we tried not to let people know, but we had guilt if we were ashamed to admit it.
There was a decidedly different attitude toward Adventism than there is today. People thought of Adventists as somewhat strange folks that kept the "wrong day" and wouldn't eat meat. Christians generally had guarded reactions to Adventists.
I believe Walter Martin's book is primarily responsible for the change. I was just looking for a small booklet we had a which was written in the 40's--I can't find it now, and I can't remember the name of it or the author, but it clearly called Adventism a cult. I believe most Christians believe Walter Martin did the work for them, so they know what to think about the church. In fact, his assessment was so successful that the Christian community in general has trouble believing us when we tell the truth about the church.
What an irony. And yes, I also believe Walter Martin would have rewritten his asssesment of ADventism if he had lived.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 85
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 8:18 pm: | |
Jeremy and Colleen, Morey had a talk show in this area for a long time on the radio, and many SDA's would call in and he was emphatic about this. Morey had lunch with Martin 1 week before he died, and he claims Martin was ready to admit that he was deceived. I had been personally handing Martin all kinds of info trying to change his mind. Maybe some of it helped. I was just thankful for the privilege to have known Martin, and what a great saint he was! You might want to E mail Robert Morey, as he told me he himself was getting ready to write on SDA. He may want to hear from you. Stan |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 87
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:24 pm: | |
Just to add to the above. There is a book which I have called the Four Major Cults, by Anthony Hoekema, published by Eerdmans with Copyright 1963, so this book came out after Martin's work, and he disagrees with Martin's conclusions. He contends that Christian Science, SDA, JW, and Mormonism all came out of the same cloth, which I have long agreed with. Hoekema is out of the Reformed stream, which may take a more objective look. Morey, told me that he has evidence that the SDA church admitted lying to Martin in the famous book Questions on Doctrine. I never followed up at the time to obtain that info, but Morey may have a lot of stuff if you E mail him on his web site that Dennis posted above. Stan |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1738
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:32 pm: | |
Stan, My mom us to go into the Christian bookstores with me she would head stright to the section with the books on cults. If she sees even one book in the Christian bookstore that considers the SDA a cult she leaves the store. Will not even look at another book. I asked her one time how come just because the store might have several books she doesn't like why does she then boycot everything in that store, even the Bibles and other devitionals, all the books and things she would agree with. She told me that that shows her the store managments policy is that the SDA church is a cult. It is VERY EXTREME. Now she just will not even go into a Christian bookstore at all. And, there is no ABC anywhere near our communty (that's good) so any religious bookstore is out of the question. In fact, if she is with me and I want to go to the Christian bookstore she will wait outside or in the car or if it's at a shopping center she will just go to the other stores. And, it was her extreme reaction to Christian bookstores that sparked my couriosity about reading the books about the SDA being a cult. So one afternoon I sat on the floor of a local Christian bookstore and read the entire book you mentioned by Mr. Hoekema. And, yes, it is 100% true that the Mary Baker Eddy Church, The Ellen White Church, the Joseph Smith Church and the Rutherford Church were all begun at around the same time with much shared intertwining in the early parts of those denominations. Soon after the terorists attacks on 9-11-01 I bought a wonderful little book by Billy Grahan's daughter about coping during times of great tragedy. My mom refused to even look at it because she is a "Sunday-keeper so there is no truth in her". |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 346
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:33 pm: | |
Melissa,
No, I have not read Dr. Morey's book on the Sabbath. Please give us a brief book review.
Dennis Fischer |
Tdf
Registered user
Username: Tdf
Post Number: 64
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 8:14 am: | |
Faith2,
I just wanted to take a moment to respond to your post from Thursday morning. If in any way I left you with the impression that I was condemning you for studying the state of the dead, I truly apologize. This was not my intention. I was simply sharing my experience. Like you, I also studied the state of the dead, so I would not condemn you for doing so. The texts that I shared were some that I came across during my study. You are correct--I am not sure about the state of the dead. Some who post on FAF believe that the Bible is 100% clear on the subject. At this point in my walk with Christ, I don't see it that way. Of course, there is truth about this subject, but I have yet to find it. At this point, I am most sympathetic to the position held by most mainline protestants. However, because I agree with Goldenbear and others that the issue is not salvational, I choose not to be dogmatic in the way I present my thoughts about it.
tdf |
Faith2
Registered user
Username: Faith2
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 9:35 am: | |
You are more than fine! I understand where you are coming from. Thank you!!! |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 817
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 11:13 am: | |
Dennis, I hadn't read it, was just wondering if it was as good as Death and the Afterlife. It's only 32 pages, also out of print. Logos software is coming out with a new disk of all of Morey's books and I saw that title when I was looking at the list of books he's written. There's quite a long list. It just made me curious. If I get it, I'll let you know! |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 818
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 11:28 am: | |
Jeremy, I also agree with Colleen. Martin's book is the one I referenced after finding out B was an SDA and since he found them "brethren" with non-orthodox beliefs, I tried to squelch any feelings of uneasiness as being "normal" for something that's different from what you know. I think Martin's name on that book gives it credibility that HHannegraff couldn't by himself. In my years of this journey, I've asked everyone I knew what their knowledge was of the religion, and very few have had any knowledge or advice. At one point, after I had asked one guy, he had been listening to HH and interestingly, he told the caller the SDAs were cultic, and to avoid them...but that was 5 years ago, and he has since changed his tune considerably as we have discussed here. Unfortunately, he didn't provide any evidence to justify his concerns, so I dismissed his warning. I wanted 'proof'. I have it now...  ... a little too late! I just think there is a general overall ignorance in the greater Christian community regarding SDAs, and I've never been in a church that even mentioned them (even when teaching on cults) until the last two years ... and maybe it was only noticed then because I've been sensitized to it...but it has never been taught against like JW or Mormons, etc. Those are more blatant...and SDAs do try to pretend at some level they're not that different from us.
Interestingly, when I have heard people ask B where he goes to church, he also seems a little embarrassed to say. It's very weird dynamics watching him with nonSDA Christians, vs how he is in his own element. But it's hard for me to generalize with such limited exposure to SDAs. |
Skip
Registered user
Username: Skip
Post Number: 16
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 9:15 am: | |
Doug Hackleman and I went down to talk with Walter Martin before his death, and I heard him say himself that he had been mislead by the Adventists when he met wtih the GC in the early 1950s. The way he told it was that many "Adventist Leaders" were ready to give up on Ellen White's views of 1844, and said that as soon as the die hards died off, that the IJ would no longer be a doctrine in the church. Martin told us that he was made a fool of by Adventist leaders and that's how he came to not call them a "cult" in his early work in the 1950s. He seemed to be saying that he would have called them a "cult" if they wouldn't have mislead him and lied about their own position at the time. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 104
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 4:08 pm: | |
Hi Skip, Yes, then that truly confirms what I was told by Dr Morey on the radio in SoCal KKLA. So, now we have to see if Dr Morey is serious enough about writing on SDA like he told me before. If he could see the evidence piled up on this and other sites, he may write a book contradicting Hanegraff. Stan |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 156
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 8:33 pm: | |
Skip and Stan, I think it would be very helpful if the two of you, and any others whom you know who had personal conversations with Walter Martin late in his life, would collaborate in writing a piece that tells of his conversations with you. I think it would be useful in counteracting the misunderstandings created by his earlier treatment of SDAs in his book, The Kingdom of the Cults. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 9:27 pm: | |
And they could send it into Proclamation to be printed. Would that be okay with you Colleen??
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1702
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:38 pm: | |
I would love to get such a collaborated manuscript!
Colleen |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 379
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 10:45 am: | |
Speaking of Robert Morey, anybody notice this article?
http://www.faithdefenders.com/ministry/articles/cults_occult/Fact+Sheet+on+Ellen+G.+White.htm
|
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 832
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 1:27 pm: | |
What amazes me is that there is enough data in that brief article to absolutely say that Mrs. White was NOT what she claimed to be. Yet...Adventists are so determined to retain their specialness as Adventists that they will overlook this very real failure of the test of a prophet. Once again I can only say that they are choosing to be blind. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 536
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 8:40 pm: | |
Belvalew,
This intense devotion to Ellen can rightly be characterized as Ellenology--akin to Mariology. In both Adventism and Catholicism, these persons become the apple of their eye and the focal point of their respective belief system. God is not amused!
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3113
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 9:35 pm: | |
I agree, Dennis.
Colleen |
