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Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 729
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 8:00 am: |     |
Because there is much confusion and controversy about Bible translations and becasue this is an area of interest for me, I just want to say a quick word on this.
The original autographs of the OT books were written in Hebrew and some Aramaic in Daniel. The original autographs of the NT books were written in Koine Greek. All modern translations use the most reliable extant Hebrew manuscripts to translate the OT into English and the most reliable extant Greek manuscripts to translate the NT books into English. So all modern English translations are translated from the original languages into English.
Tracey makes an excellen point about the KJV. Although the KJV is a beautiful and time honored English translation, it is not the most accurate translation available. It is certainly accurate enough to use for serious study and I am not advocating that anyone discard their KJV, but its limitations should be understood.
The NT of the 1611 KJV is largely translated from the 1516 Greek NT put together by Erasmus. Erasmus but his NT together rather haphazardly in a race with another group to be the first to market. Erasmus used some rather doubtful Greek manuscripts, sometimes copied editorial notes into the text, and at times had to resort to converting Latin translations back into Greek in order to fill in gaps in the Greek manuscripts available to him.
It is also true that the KJV translaters relied quite heavily at times on the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the OT made by Jewish scholars and in common use at the time of Christ). In all fairness, the KJV translators also used the Hebrew manuscripts they had available whereever possible, but they did not have the wealth of manuscripts that we do today. It should be noted that many errors have been fixed in the NKJV, but it is still based on the same doubtful family of manuscripts.
Having said all this, it should be understood that tranlations such as the NASB, NIV, and NRSV are all based on the best available manuscripts in the original languages and they are all considered to be quite reliable even though they take different approaches to translation. So if you have any SDA relatives that insist the KJV is the only trustworthy translation, you can help to enlighten them on this point.
Chris |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1622
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 8:53 am: | |
Great points, Chris.
Colleen |
Marcell
Registered user
Username: Marcell
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 8:20 am: | |
The response to "just talk about Jesus" really rang true with me. My parents both died SDA many years ago - I am the eldest with one sister still SDA and one sis agnostic. So I guess I still feel some responsibility for them. We had a difficult and sad childhood and my dad was an SDA pastor so it felt disloyal at first to abandon the church that one set of grandparents sacrificed so much for, another set of grandparents divorced over, and my parents dedicated their lives to. But then I realized that they are gone and I truly believe they loved Jesus, so they NOW KNOW THE TRUTH !!! for real!
But since SDA believe in Soul sleep, I can't bring that up to my SDA family.
So, the most simple and beautiful thing I can do is to lift Him up in word and deed and let Him draw them.
Marcell |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1743
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 3:25 pm: | |
After scanning the topic headings I decided this thread would be the most likly title for my current frustration. For years now I have taken my elderly mother to church every Saturday morning. I used to sit through the ordeal with her. Then it just got to be too hard on my ability to keep quiet about the trash I'd hear week after week after week from the front of that SDA church. I'm not kidding-every week it would be what I refer to as an Adventist informercial. One week the entire service would be about the great work Faith For Today is doing. Then the next week it would be abut ADRA. The following week would be a representive from the Quiet Hour about their awwsome work and following that wouldbe an entire service, complete with a slide show about Adventist World Radio. I'm not exaggerating-this went on for months. Finily I was all happy one Saturday around a year ago because the service was going to have real sermon by the minister. Turned out the sermon was about the IJ and we'd best get ready for the judgement because we don't want to be caught not ready. Etc. On the way out I told the preacher Jesus promised me, "I remember their sins no more." Then I told him I am saved and I know exactly when I was saved so I know I am ready. I then said to him, "Do you want to know when I was saved?" Of course, he wanted me to get through the hand-shaking line as fast as possble so he said "yes". I told him, "Pastor, I was saved in the year 33 a.d." He commented to me that he'd heard that from others before and it is not an accurate way to look at the issue and he invited me to his office for fuurther discussion on the topic, knowing fullwell I will never consider going to a SDA minister for further understanding about anything. After that week I have never went back. But, I have driven my mom to and from church each Saturday. Now last Satrday and aain today I went to my moms at the same time as always on Saturday morning to take her and she tells me, "I've already called a taxi". I said to her, "I thought you liked me to take you. Don't you want me to take you anymore?" She then, just several hours ago told me that if I'm not even going to bother to come to church and stay for the service then she will just take a taxi. I'm not a psychologist but I know she knows I like helping all I can and somehow this is her way of trying to make me feel guilty and/or to pnish me. I just said, "Well, o.k then, if you'd rather take a taxi then hat's fine but I'm more than happy to drive you anytime." I told this to my 20 year oldson and his reply was so funny. He said, "What! Is Grandma going to expect the taxi driver to stay with her? I don't think so! So, how does she come up with these weird ideas of hers?" Then just several minutes agoshe was telling me about church. Apparently they have a new intern pastor where she goes. She's all happy because the man converted from Moslem to SDA. I told her my son has a real good friend who also converted from Moslem to Christian, that he lives in the next town over and owns/runs a local market. She asked to what religion he converted from Moslem to. I said "Christian". Of course, to SDA's the generic word Christian is not what they mean, they want to know denomination and I know this is how Adventists think but I still use the words Christian, Holy Spirit and Jesus as much as I can reasonibly fit them into the context of the conversation. So, my mom asked me what church he goes to and I told her the local Prespertarian. The convrsation abruptly was changed. I know it is because of the pork issue. We've gone round and round about that. My parents hoestly believe the Moslems and the Hindus are more right with God because they don't eat pork than are the "non-Christians" who claim to be Christian who do eat pork. Dang, I'm just so frustrated. The religion issue is just so one-way with my mom. Please, advice? Also, keep this in your prayers. Thanks. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1266
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 5:56 pm: | |
Susan,
Only God can change her, so I will keep on praying for her. Just love your Mom and pray a lot for her.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1686
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 11:05 pm: | |
I second Diana. You can't change her, Susan. Prayer is the best remedy.
Colleen |
Carol_2
Registered user
Username: Carol_2
Post Number: 315
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 4:49 am: | |
Hi friends!
I'm feeling a little low, I guess more disappointed. My sister gave my brother Dale's book ("Sabbath in Christ,") last summer.
After a very wild and dangerous life (he late 40s,) he finally truly gave his life to the Lord over a year ago. He attends my mom's SDA church, but it's far from where he lives, and I think he attends a non-SDA church at times too. He truly is born again. Drives a truck & listens to Christian radio constantly, witnesses to those he meets on the road at every opportunity, has a peace and happiness we've never seen before, studies his Bible daily, and is really on fire.
He claims no allegiance to the SDA church or Ellen White, and will only study the Bible. We really felt he would be open to Dale's study of the New Covenant. In fact, I think he was open, he read the book, and I believe he would pray about it and really consider it.
Anyway, last weekend he finally talked to my sister about it (in front of my mom, which was a little frustrating....she's stout SDA and very anti-Dale....this made my sister a little uncomfortable and unable to say everything she would have liked to say.)
Here's a part of my sister's e-mail to me describing my brother's comments:
"Well, I stopped by mom's last weekend, D was there after church. He said "I read that book you gave me, and that guy is wrong about the Sabbath". As you can imagine, I wasnt happy that he was bringing up that I had given him the Dale Ratzlaff book in front of mom. (At your house, remember?) During the whole conversation, however, she didn't say a word. D said
he doesn't read any EG White, only likes to study the Bible. He doesn't believe the SDA church is the remnant, or that they are right on all the prophecy stuff. He does still abide by the Sabbath, and says Dale has the wrong understanding of the covenant, which then makes his entire support against keeping the Sabbath wrong. D stated something to the effect
that he (D) believes the 1st covenant was between God and man, and we couldn't keep it. The new covenant is between God and Jesus. I am not sure where he was going with that, but I did not want to argue in any way."
Don't know why this is bumming me out so much, but I just feel so certain that when a person is truly seeking truth, a light bulb would go on and the New Covenant would make such perfect sense.
What do you guys think of what he said about the Old Covenant being between God and man, and the New Covenant between God and Jesus? I don't understand that, but maybe some of you know what that means.
I have seen incredible changes in my brother in so many ways. I'm not worried about his salvation, but I guess I am so disappointed because I felt like one more child grasping the truth would somehow convince my mother to be more open. She's so proud that D is keeping the Sabbath, and every chance she gets she shares his stories/testimonies with my sister and I, as if the Sabbath & EGW must be truth, just look at my brother and the changes in him.
Just feeling kind of down about this I guess. Thanks for listening.
Love and prayers, Carol |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 783
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:17 am: | |
Carol, I essentially agree with your brother.
Let's consider the Abrahamic covenant first. Abraham's covenant was conditioned by faith and his faith was credited to him as righteousness. A study of Genesis reveals that the covenant was ratified while Abraham slept and was a covenant within the Godhead. There was nothing Abraham could do to make himself righteous. He simply had faith and God, via the covenant God had made within Himself, counted Abraham as righteous. The covenant looked forward to the New Covenant that would come through Jesus Christ.
The "old covenant" (Mosaic Covenant) was added on top of the Abrahamic covenant, it was a temporary addition "until the Seed (Christ) came". The Old/Mosaic covenant was conditioned on obedience. It was a covenant between God and the Israelites with Moses as the mediator. The Istraelites proved that they could not obtain the standard of perfect obedience necessary to stand in their own rightousness or to justify themselves, thus proving the need for a Redeemer and a better covenant not like the old/Mosaic covenant.
The New Covenant that Christ ushered in is like the Abrahamic covenenat in that it is conditioned on faith and is a covenant made within the Godhead. We have a better covenant in that Christ's rigtheousness is credited to us through faith. We have a better mediator in the person of Jesus Christ. And this covenant can never be broken as the Israelites broke their covenant because it is a covenant between the Father and Son, a covenant made within the one Triune God. We are the benficiaries of this covenant, but not the parties making the covenant so we know that it can not fail. There is nothing we can do to make ourselves righteouss. We place our faith in Jesus, and like Abraham, the righteousness of God's perfect Messiah is credited to our account.
So I agree with your brother's understanding of who the parties in the covenants are, but I fail to see how that would make any of the Mosaic Covenant sabbaths binding on New Covenant Christians. Quite the opposite, I believe it demonstrates that the Old Covenant is obsolete and fading away and that we are under a better covenant that is not like the old covenant.
I would be interested to hear how your brother believes his view of the difference in the covenants gels with sabbatarianism.
Chris |
Carol_2
Registered user
Username: Carol_2
Post Number: 318
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:50 am: | |
Chris, thank you so much for explaining that. Now my brother's statement about the New Covenant makes sense to me.
I so appreciate you and all the rest on this forum that will explain things when I don't understand. I usually am hesitant to show my ignorance....but you guys never make me feel stupid, and are so good and patient about explaining things. Thanks again. |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 421
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:36 am: | |
Carol, it appears to me that your brother is standing in the same position as Bill Mead on the R/S site is standing. Bill ia a truly born-again Christian who has found a way to weld his born-again beliefs into the SDA structure. Bill is continually promoting freedom in Christ, and living a life that celebrates the fruits of the spirit, yet he continues to live that freedom and experience those fruits within the SDA framework. He is frequently attacked by the other legalist SDA's for being too wishy-washy, but somehow the fit works for him.
Your brother studies his Bible only, right? He has read Dale's book, and one day he will be in the scriptures and have to deal with what we have been calling "cognitive dissonance." It happens to every true believer, and I can see that he exibits those qualities. It takes longer for some than it does for others. We will pray for the seeds that have been planted. We will also join you in prayer with regard to your mother's understanding of salvation. From your post above, that appears to be your major concern. Live your joy in the Lord around them both. Even while they are grumbling, they will still be noticing. God bless you, Carol.
Belva |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 437
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:45 am: | |
Carol,
I am finding that those who are still clinging to the Sabbath, yet embrace the grace of God wholeheartedly, have not come to grip with the old SDA tapes they have heard since cradle roll. My SIL is an example of this. She, like your brother is on fire for Jesus. She is a wonderful Christian mom that is very Christ-centered. When I was sharing with her a bit of my New Covenant belief that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant she said she believes that He is indeed the fullfillment of them except for the Sabbath.
She will tell me that our study of God should be His Word and His Word alone (ie. no EGW) yet she hangs on to Sabbath because "Revelations tells us that the Sabbath will be the true test of loyalty in end times." When I asked her to find the verse that supports this she said she would have to ask her sister who's husband works for the So. Cal. Conference - I have yet to hear back from her.
When I have pointed out Scripture, to the few SDAs in my life, that the "Seal of God" is not Sabbath keeping but in fact it is the Holy Spirit that is the GUARANTEE of our salvation, I never hear any response. There is only silence. I believe another stumbling block for SDAs regarding the New Covenant is their limited knowledge of the Holy Spirit and how He is the indwelling Jesus in our lives, thus, we now live by the law of Christ in our hearts.
Carol, I have to believe that God uses the peace, happiness and contentment in my life to impress those around me that are unable to grasp His Truths. I pray everyday that just one action or just one word of His said through me will touch just one person! I have to believe He answers my prayers daily and that someday I will have the privildge of knowing how. Hang in there, Carol. God is using you in His own way and in His own time! What a honor to work for Him! Keep up the good work!! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1939
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 2:58 pm: | |
I agree, Carol. Your brother sounds as if he really does grasp the gospel. In fact, the irony is that Dale says the new covenant is between God and Jesus while the old was between God and man. It was hearing him explain that fact at an SDA Forum meeting in San Diego in 1996 that started me on the road OUT.
God doesn't leave His children in a stage of infancy. He will continue to bring your brother face to face with cognitive dissonance, As Belva mentioned. If your bro. actually sees that God keeps the covenant with Jesus, then the Sabbath will probably start to seem inexplicable to him sooner or later.
Keep praying for him, and don't be discouraged. Praise God that He has already brought him to new life. God is faithful to complete what He has begun!
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 383
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:43 pm: | |
"UNCLE JOEL" TOOK ALL THEIR MONEY
Last Tuesday night Sylvia and I briefly watched some taped excerpts from the College View SDA Church worship service on TV (public access channel) here in Lincoln, Nebraska. The service highlighted SDA education and youth.
The spiritually-abusive part was evident when several young students were summoned up front by the CVA principal. They explained their extensive fundraising initiative for ADRA. The adult leaders claimed that they actually got many of the kids to surrender 100 percent of their penny jars, Christmas funds, small job earnings, class monies, allowance money, etc. On hand for this occasion was Joel Tompkins from ADRA who is affectionately known as "Uncle Joel" in some SDA circles. "Uncle Joel" delightedly and unashamedly accepted their huge, oversized check of more than $11,000.00 for an ADRA project. Furthermore, "Uncle Joel" gave a little pep talk by saying that "this will make us look good" to the intended recipients in the third world.
Why our moral outrage at this annual fleecing of vulnerable children? We painfully remember our own children coming home from the same SDA school system lamenting that their teachers had just talked their class into surrendering ALL of their hard-earned class money for IT IS WRITTEN, THE VOICE OF PROPHECY, or some other similar organizations. Consequently, the SDA teachers received hearty commendations from the employing Conference for their leadership ability in making this happen. The kids were looking forward to a special class outing, picnic, or boating event after doing many projects to raise money. It is indeed sad to see adults manipulate children to this degree on a regular basis.
Watching the tall, grey-haired "Uncle Joel" in the act of taking ALL the children's money brought some negative memories to haunt us once again. Many of these children will someday realize that they were duped by adults intently focused upon their own advancement and glory. By God's grace, they will become tomorrow's Former Adventist Fellowship.
Dennis J. Fischer
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1949
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:46 am: | |
OH, Dennis--I understand your and Sylvia's feelings about this. In fact, I believe that more Adventist "mission projects" and "miracle stories" are in some way dishonest or even fabricated than we would like to admit. I'm not suggesting none of their projects and needs are valid. I am saying, though, that the manipulation you describe is all too commonóand quite frankly, it's wrong.
Sincere, trusting people give their money to what they believe is the work of God, and all too often they are victims of deception and greed. I know that's strong, but unfortunately I've seen too much not to believe it's true much more than we wish it were.
The wonder of it all, though, is that God honors the willing sacrifice and the cheerful giver even if the receiver is corrupt. Still, I do believe it's important to make the truth known. After all, part of defending the gospel involves speaking truth and refusing to condone corruption. Remember Jesus in the temple?
Colleen |
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