| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1830
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |     |
Praise God, indeed, Diana!
Dennis, your point about the internet is so true. The internet was a part of our leaving, also. For several months Richard would bring me several fistfuls of papers he had downloaded every week--actually, just about daily. Those documents were amazing--somewhere I have saved them.
Much more is available now--but even then (1995 when the internet was just "taking off") it was remarkable.
Praise God!
Colleen |
Dt
Registered user
Username: Dt
Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 10:57 am: | |
Dennis & Bob,
So true about the internet being such a powerful tool.
I was in church (SDA) a couple of months ago, at potluck, and we were discussing information available on the internet. One of the women was simply aghast at the negativity about EGW on the internet. She said she quickly left those sites to avoid having her faith in EGW shaken. She asked if I had had a similar experience. I didn't give her the full load, told her that you don't need the internet sites to condemn EGW but they point to evidences in her writings that are just not readily available anywhere else.
She was just amazed that anyone could read from SOP and not get spiritually uplifted.
I almost laughed out loud when I read Dirk Anderson's story because it was somewhat similar to my own. I was at a church friend's house and saw a copy of proclamation. I picked it up and started reading. They said they didn't read it but I could take it. I was dead set on proving all of that heresy dead wrong......here I am.
God just gives you what you need when you need it. It is simply amazing how He will give you a totally different perspective on things you took for granted as absolute truth.
At first, I was just SO ANGRY at the GC and the White Estate for perpetuating a view that was just a lie. I would call my mom and just rant and rave and read the quotes from EGW books that, in my opinion, are just blasphemous. She pointed out to me that God is in control and will give you the wisdom and knowledge you need to draw you closer to Him. In His time.
EGW is right about one thing. When you stop believing in her, the IJ loses its' appeal very quickly. All of the focus self-perfection that goes with it dies a natural death and with it goes dependence on the law for salvation.
Praise God. |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 359
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 12:28 pm: | |
Dt, you make me laugh because your route out is so similar to mine. I started out wanting to prove wrong the statements I was hearing against the SDA stance, and at the end falling full on my face in front of the throne of grace and worshiping my Savior.
After that I was so angry that I wanted to confront every SDA preacher I knew, and run right up the heirarchy and face down the leaders of the church who are perpetuating a lie for no other reason than to protect their income via the church. If they were honest and truly believed in Jesus they would know they would be able to find other work, other support. But no!, these people insist on perpetuating the lie out of greed. They can't be earning that much that they would knowingly endanger their eternal standing. Are they that deluded? No insult is intended here, but my exchanges with Pastor O have shown me that he is unwilling to find out the truth--he has completely walled off all possibility of finding out anything that would confirm, for him, that what he has believed all his life is wrong. He can't be the only one with that frame of mind. It's a difficult wall to break through. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 584
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 1:29 pm: | |
What's so interesting about SDAs being afraid to test Ellen is that the Bible commands us to test the prophets, and even EGW said that her books would bear the test of investigation! So why should they be afraid of being deceived if they test her? If EGW's books can't bear the test of investigation then she was a liar and a false prophet, and there is no reason to be afraid of her (Deut. 18) or afraid that you are being deceived.
Jeremy |
Dt
Registered user
Username: Dt
Post Number: 16
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 1:53 pm: | |
Thanks Belvalew, Now I can laugh too (somewhat ruefully!).
Jeremy,
EXACTLY! We can discuss JW's, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy etc. and pull up every dirty reference, true or not, and they are fair game. We are doing our Biblical due diligence.
Try pointing someone to the Veltman study now on the GC website and they will never read it, even though it was done by the GC. Even though they renamed it "The Life Of Christ Research Project". Cute huh?
|
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1411
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 8:27 pm: | |
With the EGW lens/glasses on, if you question what she wrote, you are questioning God and she was "God's prophetess". So you would be disbelieving her and rejecting God. A very convoluted way of thinking, but remember how our salvation hinged on what we believed as SDAs??
Only God, with the Holy Spirit can break through a wall like that and God did it with each of us. With some, like me, he had to go gently and took longer, but God knew that once I saw EGW as she really was, I would drop her like a hot brick. I did that a year ago. It has been a very interesting year and I have enjoyed it, even with the down times. God is with me constantly and he is so awesome.
Diana |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 239
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 6:14 am: | |
Yes, I certainly do "remember how our salvation hinged on what we believed as SDAs", as Diana said. One of the few things my mom had to say to me after telling her of our leaving the SDA church is "we'll be judged by what we believe." That has always rubbed me the wrong way, because I'm sure no one has any of their beliefs 100% correct, and that is such a subjective experience. And don't forget, we'll also be "judged by what we could have known." Seems to me the only Biblical stance is that we'll be judged by what we did with Jesus. |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 220
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 6:20 am: | |
I know this conversation has evolved a bit, but somewhere up the thread you all were talking over the weekend about the changing financial picture of the SDA church. You might find it noteworthy that although enrollment is up at AU, changing the past 4 year drop, the University is at a record 2.4 mill deficit in their budget and is taking some drastic measures. The part of this that is really curious, is that the two departments that are causing the biggest quaking regarding the future financial picture are education and seminary. It seems the GC funding of the seminary has been what has saved AU in the past. Well, starting this year, the GC is cutting it's sponsorship to the seminary. It seems though there are plenty of applicants for ministry, the funding is not there. Tithes and offerings have been dropping alarmingly. The substidy for teachers is also dropping.
Just thought you'd find that as interesting as I did... i too am curious about what this GC session will bring. Got an email from Dale R last week saying to remember them in prayer as their brainstorming something special for GC. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 585
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:45 am: | |
Ellen also said that we would be held accountable for all the sins that we didn't even commit but would have committed if we had the opportunity!
Jeremy |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 351
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:53 am: | |
...plus the perpetual effect of our sins on into the future eons after our death... |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1833
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 11:17 am: | |
Frankly, Adventism is overwhelming. I just have to share a quote from a letter which will appear in the next Proclamation (it goes to press this week). It was written by a faculty member at an SDA college. Here it is:
"But I challenge your readers to read again the great classicsóDesire of Ages, Christ's Object Lesson, Steps to Christ--and they will experience a close walk with God. To throw these out is to throw Jesus out with the bath water."
There you have it--throw out Ellen's "Classics", and you throw out Jesus. I admit to being shocked that an educated mind in the middle of an SDA institution would have the temerity to actually SAY that! Most "intellectual" Adventists know that such statments are arguable and are slippery slopes to stand on.
There's really nothing we can say to people who cling to such convictions. Only the Holy Spirit can draw a person away from such intimate deception.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 587
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 11:47 am: | |
The reasons I became convinced that Ellen taught a FALSE GOSPEL were in part because of horrible quotes from those books!
The Desire of Ages is the book where EGW writes: "His example declares that our only hope of eternal life is through bringing the appetites and passions into subjection to the will of God." (Page 122, paragraph 2.) I came across that quote awhile after I had already seen others.
If that is not a blasphemous false gospel, then I don't know what is. But to say that you are throwing out Jesus if you throw out certain books is just unbelievable! That statement really shows what a cultic mindset they have.
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on April 25, 2005) |
Dt
Registered user
Username: Dt
Post Number: 19
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 1:37 pm: | |
Jeremy, exactly.
Also, when I read something particularly uplifting in one of her books, I can't help thinking "that's great, I wonder where she stole that?". It kind of ruins the whole spiritual effect. |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 545
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 7:27 am: | |
Jeremy...did Ellen White confirm by vision 1843 and 1844? An SDA is saying she didn't have any visions until 1850. HELP! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1840
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:41 am: | |
Dt, I'm not Jeremy, but look at pp. 84-85 of Ratzlaff's Cultic Doctrine. He quotes several of Ellen's endorsements of 1843 and 1844.
In Early Writings, p. 232, she says, "I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843 It was His design to arouse the people and bring them to a testing point, where they should decide for or against the truth. Thousands were led to embrace the truth preached by William Miller."
In Review and Herald, 1850-11-01, she wrote this: "The Lord showed me that the 1843 chart was directed by his hand, and that no part of it should be altered; that the figures were as he wanted them. That his hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that no could see it,until his hand was removed."
In other words, she said God showed her that He deliberately deceived people in order to accomplish people's spiritual awakening. It's blasphemy!
Further, she had many "visions" about the Shut Door theory during the 1840's. In Spiritual Gifts Vol 1, p 136 she said God turned his face from the churches that rejected Miller's 1843 prophecy and asked his angels to watch over those who did accept it.
Spiritual Gifts vol. 1 p. 139 also explains how they learned that 1843 was really 1844. She says she "saw" that many who could not work up the same zeal for 1844 that they had for 1843 were "working inunion with Satan and his angels to perplex God's people, who were living out the heaven-born mnessage."
Oh, yes,--Ellen had a great many visions and messages and confirmations from God before 1850!
Colleen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1841
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:42 am: | |
oops--sorry--I meant that last post to be directed to PHEEKI, not Dt!
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 592
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:59 pm: | |
"Ellen had a great many visions and messages and confirmations from God..." She did?!  Just kidding, I know what you meant... 
Pheeki, also see this thread here for more info.
Jeremy |
Dt
Registered user
Username: Dt
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 7:35 pm: | |
Pheeki,
Here is the link to the White Estate. I believe all of her published writings are here.
http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default
For her earliest visions, look in Early Writings or Spiritual Gifts.
Her first vision (officially) was in December 1844, just after the Great Disappointment. If you look at the first few chapters of Early Writings you will see some blasphemous statements about believers who stopped believing in the 1844 message after it failed to happen were left to Satan, Jesus turned His back on them, they fell off the path into darkness etc.
Go to EllenWhite.org and read. Dirk Anderson does a very good job of letting EGW's writings speak for themselves.
You may not be able to find a direct quote of her predicting Jesus return in 1843 but she leaves you with no doubt that she was a very active participant in spreading and supporting that prediction. Anyone saying otherwise is obfuscating and throwing up a smokescreen to avoid the real issue. When they do this , call them on it. It's fun to watch.
Make them do the homework all by themselves and pretty soon you'll have an ally. She can't stand up to scrutiny without a whole lot of excuses and twisting and turning.
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1848
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 9:20 pm: | |
Good advice, Dt--"make them do the homework all by themselves and pretty soon you'll have an ally."
That's exactly what happened to Dirk Anderson of the EllenWhite.org site!
Colleen
(Message edited by Colleentinker on April 26, 2005) |
