| Author |
Message |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 140
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 7:03 pm: |     |
Pw,
SDA apologists say that it was the high cost involved. Evidently, Ellen White didn't want the deceived to spend any money on themselves--such as photographs and bicycles (all extra money was to enrich her church). She called family portraits a form of idolatry akin to graven images. However, she spent a small fortune on them herself during this very same time period. In short, she embraced the old adage, "do as I say, and not as I do."
Dennis J. Fischer |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 829
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 7:29 pm: | |
Pw, the bicycle ban is said because they were a fad at the time and our $ is not to be spent on fads. My dad did though like his bicycle. He didn't have to feed, water and groom it like he did his horse. Here is another thing my dad talked about that he went through growing up as a SDA child. He was a little boy. Seven years old he thought he was when this happened. He'd taken ill and his mom had heard in church on Sabbath that when children get sick that medical doctors were to be avoided and the child should be taken to a practioner of pheronology. My dad remembers this man going over and over his head (my dads head) with his fingers(the practioners fingers) feeling every bit of his scalp. Then the man had told my grandmother there was nothing wrong with her little boy that the child was making up a story about not feeling well. My grandmother knew my dad was a sick little boy so she took him to the g.p. in town who was not sda and got my dad the medicine he needed and my dad got well. My dad said after that his family would always make sure their doctor was not sda. Yet, the sda church had such a hold on these poeople that except for choosing doctors they stayed faithful sda's their entire lives. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 141
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 8:51 pm: | |
WILLIAM MILLER'S FIFTEEN CHARTS: A Painful Dialogue
Last Monday morning, my wife Sylvia was having a frank discussion with a highly-respected SDA apologist by phone about Miller's deceptive charts. As the conversation was heating up, his wife abruptly grabbed the phone and hung up on her. My wife called back pretending that the phone was accidently disconnected. However, after not answering for many rings, his wife finally said it was intentional on her part.
She initially brought her husband into Adventism more than 50 years ago, and she didn't want him to be confronted with facts that caused him anxiety and pain. After all, she had helped him reach the pinnacle of success in Adventism. Oh well, so much for that topic. Knowing him for many years as a dignified, conservative minister/administrator/professor, we felt that he was greatly embarrassed by her rude action.
Interestingly, he had never heard of Miller's 15 charts--even though having a doctorate and having taught many college Bible classes. It was somewhat humbling for him to be unprepared with a defense. Remember, they always like to have an answer--the final word.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 64
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 9:03 pm: | |
Dennis-
OK -- I admit it! I don't know what the 15 charts are (unless I've heard of it without that name?).
Would you mind helping me out? |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 107
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 5:47 am: | |
OK, thanks for the insight on the bicycle agenda with the cost debate. Now would someone explain how it's ok for an SDA to drive a Mercedes or a Jag if spending money is such a sin? UNREAL. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 142
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 6:33 am: | |
Dd,
Miller's various charts, fifteen in all, were a complex assortment of different historical events that when added together throughout history would all culminate in the 1843 or 1844 time frame. Therefore, William Miller had 15 proofs (detailed on charts) that Jesus would return in 1843-44.
Apparently, his assumption was that if one proof is remotely plausible, then fourteen more would be even better and hopefully more convincing. To his credit, unlike Ellen White, William Miller later admitted that he was wrong.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 556
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
Dennis, what an emotionally charged experience for your wife! Wow! That would require a few minutes for allowing the adrenalin to subside!
You're right about their always wanting a defense and the last word.
BTW, Richard brought me a xeroxed article someone gave him by Joe Crews of Susan's "Amazing Fiction" fame. (He is from Amazing Facts, isn't he? Someone help me if I have the wrong organization...) This article was a truly proud recounting of his defense of the Sabbath to some Bible college students who attended one of his meetings. They challenged him rather publicly after one meeting by saying he was attempting to put them back under the old covenant by requiring Sabbath observance.
Crews led them through a contrived set of questions that got them to admit that the old covenant was completed at Christ's death, and the new covenant was then put in place. They all agreed. Then he asked them if anything new could be added to the new covenant after Jesus' death/resurrection, or if His death marked the completion of the old and the instituting of the new. They all agreed nothing new could be added.
Then he asked them how Sunday keeping to honor the resurrection could have been added AFTER Christ's death, if the new covenant was put in place at his death? And Sabbath was already in place and never denounced, so Christ's death sealed it into place, as well.
He then proudly explained that the students mumbled something about getting back to him, and left.
It left me feeling helpless and outraged. Crews set up a completely fallacious argument, and those poor unsuspecting students did not understand Adventist thinking (or, perhaps, even the new covenant) enough to point out his heresy. I was surprised, actually, that they didn't think to point out that Pentecost came AFTER the death and resurrection, and it certainly was something NEW--but it was not a requirement for salvation, any more than was Sabbath.
I do pray that the truth about Adventism will be known.
Colleen |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 66
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 5:02 pm: | |
Hey Colleen!
Would you mind answering Crew's question as if you had been one of those students? God has given you such a blessed way with words. |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 67
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 5:03 pm: | |
Actually, Dennis, Doug...all you learned scholars...would you please weigh in, too?
THANKS!
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Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 372
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 5:34 pm: | |
I'm not a learned scholar, but I'm always happy to give my 2 (okay maybe just 1) cent. :-)
First of all, I think the question about the possibility of anything being added to the new covenant is a straw man. I do believe the New Covenant is complete as is (Unlike the Mosaic covenant - see Heb. 8:7), however this is not particularly germain to the discussion of if a particular day of worship is required by the NC. This is a typical SDA trick designed to help you make a false leap of logic. (Present fact A as true, obtain agreement, then fallaciously present fact B as also true without ever proving a direct logical relationship between fact A and fact B. The fact that A is true, does not necessarily mean that B is true). In this case, the implied argument is: "The New Covenant is complete, therefore Saturday Sabbath observance is required." A cursory glance at this statement will show any logical thinker that conclusion A is not logically linked to conclusion B.
The answer to his question is that Sunday observance is not a requirement of the New Covenant, but neither is Saturday observance. Try as they like, setup as many straw men as they like, they will not find a text commanding new covenant Christians to keep a particular day holy, Saturday or Sunday. End of story.
Chris |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 211
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 5:38 pm: | |
Colleen, I understand that Joe Crews was the founder of Amazing Facts. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 560
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 8:11 pm: | |
Thanks, Freeatlast! Even the name is heretical!
Exactly, Chris. I suspect that Crews confused those poor students, that they knew SOMETHING was wrong with his argument, but they just didn't have a clue where to begin to answer. One of the things Adventists like Crews plays on is the inclusion of the Sabbath in God's Law--which most Christians will affirm is eternal. SDAs play on Christian's ignorance of what Adventists mean by God's law, and they work people who aren't clear on the role of the 10 Commandments into a corner. The illogical connections they use are classic Adventism--and they usually feel so proud of their clever answers!
Sigh...
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 441
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 8:51 pm: | |
The story of J. Crews and the students is very sad. That a supposed minister of God will work some one into a corner to prove their truth. It looks to me that all SDA evangelists or whatever they call them selves are being deceptive. Very Very sad. God will take care of it. I am so glad He got me out.
Diana |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 641
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 9:42 pm: | |
We had members in our (Adventist) church back East who very definitely believed that the Jesuits (Roman Catholics) murdered Joe Crews!
He died of heart-related problems at the Washington Adventist Hospital (the "San") and these people felt the Jesuits had sneaked into his room and killed him. Continued the anti-papacy fear tactics and/or proof of Adventisms' persecution-complex, I guess.
(Crews' "Amazing Facts" organization was headquartered in Frederick, MD; it later moved to California under the leadership of Doug Batchelor.)
I was personally given by an "Amazing Facts" evangelist the "counsel" Joe Crews had preached on concerning "wedding rings". (Don't wear!) I was dumb enough to think wedding rings were a non-issue in 1998.
Oh well, I'm grateful to not have to go thru that guilt-ridden, bondage-producing "evangelism" anymore...
grace always,
cindy |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 143
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 12:09 am: | |
Regrettably, when still a teenager, I handed out programs (at the door) to attendees at an IT IS WRITTEN, one-night conference in Dickinson, North Dakota. George Vandeman was proud of me. However, my far greater regrets are all the cultic lies that I presented in my sermons and taught to my own children.
I always included references to Ellen White to make sure the sermon was as Adventistic as possible. One Saturday morning in eastern North Carolina, I even preached to an audience that included William Miller and Sister White (smile).
Dennis J. Fischer |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 445
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 7:35 am: | |
Dennis,
Aren't you glad that when our sins are forgiven, they are as far away from us as the east is from the west or are put in the depths of the ocean (the bottom cannot be fathomed in some places). Each of us were taught these lies by some one. They are not something one finds just by reading the Bible. So the ones who taught me, as a child, are probably all dead now. I have forgiven them because they did not know any better. I had to pray, a lot, for the GC leaders who have known about EGW and the lies and are still upholding them. I am no longer angry at them. I had to give that anger to God.
Thank God He is so awesome.
Diana |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 428
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 7:44 am: | |
Dd, I am by no means a scholar either, but we don't "observe" Sunday. We worship corporately on Saturday or Sunday at my church, but when is completely irrelevant. Though it is true it seems that Sunday was picked as the day to worship because of the resurrection, the day itself was not the point...it was the what (resurrection) and the who (God...Father, Christ, Holy Spirit). We gather on Wednesdays and other nights of the week for Bible studies, but that doesn't count? Secondly, if the old covenant was complete at the cross, that means sabbath remembrance was complete since the 10Cs were part of the Old Covenant (there are scripture, just not handy at the moment). So, by agreeing the Old Covenant is fulfilled, they agree that holy day observance is history. Since the new covenant has no day observance mandated, when isn't relevant. As Chris said, A and B have no logical link. Though I know historically there have been some trying to make Sunday a sabbath, I think that it is not as prominent as it may have been years ago. But I think Colleen's point about poor new covenant understanding is valid too. We say we're under the new covenant, but most of us don't know what that means. and it seems most don't care...they just want to know how they're supposed to live today.
My 1/2 cent worth.... :-0
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Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 68
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 7:57 am: | |
Hey Chris- thanks, you great learned one!
Why is it that I still feel inadequate to "argue" my convictions? Colleen, when I read what Crew did to set up those students, my heart rate actually went up - not only from irritation of what he did and the arrogance that followed but because I picture that happening to me. I know the TRUE answer but because I am "fearful" my mind clouds over, my mouth won't open and I have to go to the bathroom!! But seriously, I am sure it has a great deal to do with, as Dennis metioned, our own history of treating "unbelievers" in the same way. Is it something deeper? Does anyone else feel this same fear? I have such a peace in my life knowing God is leading (and has lead longer than I ever realized) me spiritually. I am so content to follow yet the fear is still with me.
Dennis - Please know that I do not look at the spiritual leaders in my life and feel they should live with guilt or regrets (even those still preaching the "old stuff"). I realize they have their own baggage, too. I am honored to have the opportunity to "speak" with you and have your special insight in my life. God can use you in ways that many others cannot be used. Your walk is valuable to me. Thanks for hanging around and sharing it! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 563
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 9:18 am: | |
Dennis, I understand your feelings. I really had to ask God's forgiveness when it hit me how many of my students and people who had been in my SS classes had heard me promoting and supporting Adventism as the WAY for them. Praise God, though--He wastes nothing--even those misguided attempts to serve Him--and He redeems everything!
Dd, I completely understand what you're describing. One thng Richad and I have discovered is that the Holy Spirit gives us His words when we have to answer for Him. Richard has said he's had experiences where texts would come to his mind that he could never remember under ordinary circumstances. God doesn't ask us to be ready with complete, fully formed theology when we're questioned. He asks us to trust Him, to be willing to speak about our experience with Him, and to answer in faith, trusting Him to guide us and to give us what's needed at that moment.
He continues to teach us, and our answers gradually become deeper, but we can trust God to give us His authority at any given moment. It's about Him now, not about our ability to answer right! I believe the most powerful thing we can ever do is to proclaim Christ and His finished work, even if we don't know all the texts we wish we did. If God can make the rocks cry out, He can use my love and trust in any way He wishes. He doesn't depend on me to be ready!
Praise God it's all about Him!
Colleen |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 121
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 9:26 am: | |
I haven't heard of Joe Crew... Who is he? What did he do? |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 448
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 12:21 pm: | |
Dd,
I am kind of in that position because my niece, who is not Christian, asked me to tell her some thing about the Bible. Her exact words are, "give it your best shot, Auntie". I have not written her back, but I have started a letter and as I sat writing, texts came to my mind for me to use. The letter is not complete, but when it is I know it will not be my words, but God's words as He has brought texts to my mind and it will glorify Him. As an SDA I would not have tried to talk to her about Christianity, but she invited it when I told her I had left the SDA church.
So, I can identify with how you feel. I am not a scholar and I have had to study to learn for myself, with God's help, what the Bible really teaches.
He will teach us as we ask and need it.
Diana |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 69
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 12:52 pm: | |
Thanks to Diana, Melissa and Colleen for your thoughts. Old habits of fearing I may be wrong are hard to break. You're right, Colleen! I loved your thoughts about God making rocks cry out...He knows my unwavering faith and undying love and He will use me -- I just need to respond when He calls.
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Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 835
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 2:55 pm: | |
Are all sda hospitals referred to as, "the San"? |
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