| Author | Message | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
I'm sure many of you have thought about this as well, but I just wanted to share some practical thoughts concerning the Sabbath that struck my fancy. I've done a good amount of research on the SDA view of the Sabbath, and how it's all tied in to their (ahem) history, and how their (cough cough) prophet said it'd be a final test of time (chuckle) and all that jazz. As many of you probably have encountered, sometimes no matter how much you show them Scripture evidence after Scripture evidence, they still don't budge. What I've noticed is that sometimes, that smallest little detail can disprove a whole lot. For example, have you really actually READ the 4th commandment? "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work, but the seventh day is a day of rest dedicated to the LORD your God...." (Ex 20:8-11, TLB) Now, the original manuscript didnt have chapter and verse markings or punctuation. They were placed there when translated to other languages, especially English. However, I find it interesting that in all the English translations I've read, the first sentence simply reads "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy." If I'm not mistaken, that BY ITSELF is the commandment. Now if I'm correct in making that assumption (if anyone disagrees I'd be more than happy to hear what they have to say), then the 4th commandment would therefore say NOTHING about ANY 7th day! If you read beginning with the second sentence, you see God specifying the commandment for ISRAEL, whom He gave it to in the first place. He's telling them, "Hey look, I want you to take one day and rest and worship me. Do it on the 7th day of every week." God later gave them more specific instructions to observe it from sundown to sundown on the 6th-7th days. Does this prove that the Adventists are right and that we should worship only on Sabbath? Not so fast my friend! If God didn't give the Ten Commandments only to Israel, then why was He so specific about the Sabbath requirements? Consider the implications of the Sabbath: same time every week, from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, a full 24 hour period. The conditions woiuld be perfect in most places of the world. But what if your an Adventist and you're a geological scientist studying the polar ice caps at the South Pole? (Completely hypothetical.) Now, as an Adventist, all the Sabbath requirements would certainly apply. Theres just one problem: the sun only rises and sets one time a year. You couldn't just revert to the regular calendar weeks because to you, God meant what He said about that sundown thing. So assuming that the first day you got there was day 1 of this "week", you'd have to wait SIX FULL YEARS before you could even observe a Sabbath for the first time. And when you finally do, that Sabbath is for a WHOLE YEAR! God said sundown to sundown right? Their (cough cough) prophet never seemed to account for this, and certainly you'd think that if Sabbath observance was to be universal that there'd be some provision for that. The issue gets further complicated. D. M. Canwright quotes Uriah Smith as saying that all will observe the Sabbath together, as to assume that all the inhabitants of the universe will keep the same Sabbath day. When you think about it, this idea fails in two ways. First, think about our own earth. In the last century, as an effort to standardize our global economy, time zones were developed. The United States has 4 such time zones. So when an Adventist in Boston begins his Sabbath at 6:30 Eastern Friday night, the Adventist in Los Angeles is still finishing his daily duties at 3:30 Pacific. In the same respect, when the Adventist in Boston finishes his Sabbath at 6:30 Eastern Saturday night, the Adventist in Los Angeles is still on his Sabbath at 3:30 Pacific. Is this the same Sabbath? Both are the same 24 hour period from sunset to sunset. How about the Adventist in Sydney, Australia? By the time the Adventist in Boston finishes his Sabbath, it's well into Sunday in Sydney. Surely we couldn't universalize the Sabbath to the same time so that Adventists in Sydney would actually be having Sabbath on Sunday! That would be absurd! (sarcasm) And if we were to all observe the Sabbath at the same time, it would imply that we observe it along with God as well which begs the question, what time zone is God in? The statement also fails outside the earth as well. Suppose everything we see on Star Trek comes true and we start to colonize planets. How do you keep the Sabbath on Mars? Their days are longer than ours. What about on Jupiter where the days are only 10 EARTH hours? God made the whole universe right? What planet is He on? Obviously, the Sabbath can't be this universal thing that we must keep so stringently. And it most certainly can't be any kind of a test. True Sabbath rest is found in Christ, not in a day. (You can find more by reading from Canwright himself under the heading "The Sabbath on a Round Earth" - http://web2.airmail.net/billtod/ch09.txt) In Christ, Joel | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Joel, I HIGHLY recommend the book "Sabbath in Crisis," by Dale Ratzlaff. He does an excellent job of going text by text through every reference to the Sabbath and explaining the spiritual significance. Actually, I think the SDA's are headed in the right direction as far as their emphasis on the Sabbath. The problem is that they stopped short, by focusing all their attention on a day rather than the promise. Actually, the Sabbath symbolized the rest that was to come in Jesus. Most Christians totally miss the boat on that issue. I think if you read Ratzlaff's book you'll have a newfound appreciation for the significance of the Sabbath as an institution that fulfilled in Christ. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Doug, I have been wanting to get a copy of that book for myself actually. I have already received a greater appreciationn for the Sabbath after studying the SDAs that I wouldnt have had otherwise. Also, I have great respect for Dale and the work he has done reaching out to formers. I'm not "anti-Sabbath" at all; I do however object to all the "additions" Adventists have tacked on to it. Thanks for the suggestion. Joel | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Joel, Didn't Jesus say, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath? What place then, does a sabbath have outside of this world? It existed only because of sin and when sin was washed by the blood of Christ it was no longer a 24 hour period but an eternal institution of rest as intended from the beginning. I think a lot of those books are available on line. Try the SDA outreach site. Keep studying!! Sabra | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Joel, you can also order The Sabbath in Crisis (being republished under the title The Sabbath in Christ) from Ratzlaff's website directly, if you wish. It's www.ratzlaf.com (notice ratzlaf has only one "f" in the web address). While you're at it, you ought also to order The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists. If your fiance ever become ready to read, this book will probably be very good for her. I think all of us who have leftóat least most of us!óhave read that book and found it VERY helpful. (Actually, you would understand Adventism a lot better, also, by reading this book!) The New Covenant changes everything! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
And what about when we get to heaven, no night will be seen there. How will you know when the Sabbath is. | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Violet, I asked myself that same question when I heard that Adventists taught that we will keep the Sabbath in heaven. I asked a few people about that and they couldnt give me a straight answer. I guess they suppose that God rests every seventh day Himself, which certainly doesn't match my Bible. Joel | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Well actually, when you read Revelation, God makes the earth new and abides with us here, and there is no temple because He is the glory there, and there is no night....that is talking about the new earth, not heaven. But yes, that is an Adventist assumption. However, A) God lives outside of the realm of time, and B) on this planet because of it's revolution around the sun, there is always part of the planet that would not be observing saturday as sabbath because they're in a different time zone, or a different day. To make a universal sabbath on planet earth it would require the whole planet to take two days off a week so that it could be universally held. But then they might end up worshipping on Sunday too wouldn't they? Hmmm...couldn't have that.  I'm being silly ok. There's another book on Dale's site that addresses the nonsense of these type of SDA-EGWhite isms and lays them out clearly....it's called "The Sabbath and the Lord's Day" by H. M. Riggle. I read this after I read "Sabbath in Crisis". That is the order I'd recommend. | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
I have a question that I'm a little unsure about. Through studying Adventism i have a new appreciation and understanding of the covenant scheme outlined in the Bible and I understand the New Covenant centered on Christ. I understand the Sabbath to be a shadow of the true rest that we find in Christ. Because the Sabbath was only a shadow, and the substance has come, we no longer need to follow the shadow. So from that, I take that to mean then that the Sabbath requirements are no longer applicable to us in a sense that we are not judged by them. Paul's illustration in Galatians 3 and 4 has worked wonders in my understanding of that. (I wonder how often Adventists purposely avoid Galatians, being that it tears down their entire concept of the law!, hehe) Now while we are not judged by the law (Ten Commandments), they certainly are good moral concepts that indeed we should obey. Of course it makes sense to not steal, kill, or put God beneath something else. In studying the Sabbath from other sources, I almost get the sense that the Sabbath becomes completely unnecessary, but to me that doesn't make much sense. To me it seems to make more sense to view the Sabbath in two ways: in a spiritual sense, Christ is our Sabbath, our true rest; in a physical sense, our physical bodies were not designed for the stresses we exert on it. It would serve us well to take time and rest physically. Just as Israel was called to take a day and rest and worship, it would seem to be good Christian practice to do the same. And because of the freedom we have been given as Christians, not only are we free from the strict regulations that the Jews were placed under, we are free to observe it however we want and whenever we want, for as long as we want. Maybe I'm getting way off base here, but I'm hoping that as Formers who would understand it better than I do that maybe you can help me. Also, how would you best approach this to an Adventist who is at least somewhat tolerant to the gospel of grace (as opposed to the gospel of the Sabbath). Is there any level of reasonable compromise on the issue without compromising the gospel? Joel | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Joel, I think your question was-do we as christians need a day to rest. If I'm right, I would say that we as human beings need to rest at least 8 hours of every day. Physical rest is not the same as a spiritual rest or inner peace. I feel that before the cross the Israelites could not pray except through the High Priest and had no relationship with God or Holy Spirit to compfort them and guide them so they needed the 24 hour period to turn from the norm and worship God. I feel that since Jesus died for us, left us with the Holy Spirit, made it possible to pray to God at any given moment, that our worshipping God should be the norm. I don't think we should have separate secular and christian lives. We are to be a witness everyday, honor God everyday, and serve His purpose. To be one with Christ, everyday. (Read Hebrews 4) I hope I got the question right ;) Sabra | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Joel, I think what you will find is that most of us formers are very reluctant to tie this "spiritual rest" that you are talking about to the Sabbath. We see how this has been abused in the past. SO, to answer your question, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Christian deciding to make special time for their relationship with God--in the same way that there is nothing wrong with you setting aside special time with your "intended." However, that time is not the Sabbath. The Sabbath served a specific purpose and has been fulfilled in Christ. You are walking dangerously close to the argument that Christians SHOULD keep Sunday as a day of rest. Remember, "one man considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in His own mind." You asked the question about how you would approach this topic with an Adventist who is at least somewhat tolerant to the gosepl of grace. I assume you are talking about your fiance. You then said, is there some level of reasonable compromise on the issue. I'm not sure what you are asking exactly. Are you asking if it is okay for you to observe the Sabbath with her? Sure it is. Just make sure you know why you are doing it--and what the long term effects of doing that are. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Doug, I apologize if my question seemed a little vague. You did seem to hit on what I was trying to ask about whether its okay to even keep a day of rest. I guess I can see how that can get close to "keep the Sabbath" or "keep a Sabbath". I believe then what I'm getting from you is understand that the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ along with the rest of the law, and if one does "keep a day" do so "to the Lord" as Paul said. Joel | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
You might find this helpful Joel. This poem can be found in "From Sabbath to Lord's Day" by D.A. Carson. It was written by Joseph Hart(1712-1768). "Some Christians to the Lord regard a day, And others to the Lord regard it not; Now, though these seem to choose a diff'rent way, Yet both, at last, to one same point are brought. He that regards the day will reason thus -- 'This glorious day our Saviour and our King Perform'd some might act of love for us; Observe the time in mem'ry of the thing.' Thus he to Jesus points his kind intent, And offers prayers and praises in his name; As to the Lord above his love is meant, The Lord accepts it; and who dare to blame? For, though the shell indeed is not the meat, 'Tis not rejected when the meat's within; Though superstition is a vain conceit, Commemoration surely is not sin, He also, that to days has no regard, The shadows only for the subtance quits; Towards the Saviour's presence presses hard, And outward things through eagerness omits. For warmly to himself he thus reflects-- 'My Lord alone I count my cheifest good; All empty forms my craving soul rejects, And seeks the solid riches of his blood. 'All days and times I place my sole delight In him, the only object of my care; External shows for his dear sake I slight, Lest ought but Jesus my respect should share.' Let not th' oberver, therefore, entertain Against his brother any secret grudge; Nor let the non-observer call him vain; But use his freedom, and forbear to judge. Thus both may bring their motives to the test; Our condescending Lord will both approve. Let each pursue the way that likes him best; He cannot walk amiss, that walks in love." | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Thanks for sharing that poem, Sherry. You know, Joel, resting on a particular day is not a bad thing. When a person has been an Adventist, however, the Sabbath will always have a different meaning than it does for most other people, even if they say it's not necessary for salvation. For Richard and me, the Sabbath became what meat offered to the idols was for the Corinthians. Paul said he could eat anything, even meat offered to idols, because he knew the idols were nothing. But he said that when a person was accustomed to idols, meat offered to idols had a different meaning because their conscience is defiled. (1 Corinthians 8) Also, in Acts 15 the council of Jerusalem said they had only four recommendations for Gentile Christians, "to absstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." (Acts 15:29) The reason the Gentiles were told not to eat meat offered to idols was not that the meat was intrinsically sinful. Rather, the Gentiles had a whole cascade of memories and associations that would come alive if they did certain things associated with their pagan religion, including eating meat offered to idols. That didnt bother Paul; he had never worshiped idols. Ceremonially blessed meat did not affect him in any way. But the Gentiles had reactions hard-wired into their consciences. Adventists have the same connection to the Sabbath. I realize that I'm speaking rather strongly here, but Adventism does have a demonic component. Because it was founded on a lie with a false prophet and elders who knowingly created doctrines based on her visions instead of strictly on the Bible, because the early Adventists were unrepentant when they set dates for Christ's return, Satan has a claim on the church. It was not founded on the gospel. God is not responsible for deception. Satan has a claim on the church, and the Sabbath has a supernatural hold on Adventists. Because it was the shadow of the coming Messiah, it was a powerful deception for Satan to instill into this entire church. No matter what Adventists say, the Sabbath is deeply ingrained in them in a way they cannot explain. It has a spiritual hold on them. We had to deliberately decide to consciously work on Satruday. We realized we could not observe the day with a new attitude. We had to completely let it go because it is associated with a whole cascade of memories and deep spiritual reactions and associations in an Adventist's or former Adventist's conscience. For those of us who have kept the Sabbath as Adventists, the seventh day must be jettisoned completely. The way it was treated in our past made it part of a spiritual bondage, and we must let it go. Your willingness to compromise with your fiance is really wonderful, Joel, but the compromise you envision is probably not possible. For her, the Sabbath means something that she probably can't even explain. As long as she can "keep" the day in some way, she will feel that she has her spiritual bases covered. Just in case the Sabbath is necessary, she'll be safe. Former Adventists have to risk letting Sabbath go so they can put ALL their trust in Jesus. For her the issue will never be the same as it is for you. I'm praying for you, Joel. In Jesus alone, Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Amen Colleen!!!!!!!!! Especially the part about the effect on Joel's fiance. Doug | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
That's a tough pill to swallow, but its a good one. Thanks Colleen Joel | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
I think that the concept of a "Sabbath" is one of the things I miss the most. I knew that one day a week I could not feel guilty about leaving the laundry until tomorrow. I could spend all afternoon at the park with friends and family and not feel like I should be working. Especially right now, my husband and I are both accountants in private practice. The tax season has really taken a toll on us. We have shifted to Sunday, not keeping it Holy, but just using the time for family matters. The good thing is we no longer have a preperation day that you were at work all day and then had to come home and prepare the house for work etc. At least this way if I want to spend Sunday afternoon at the movies with my kids I am not racked with guilt like I would of been on Sabbath. | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Excellent thoughts, Colleen, about our Sabbatarian heritage. We are forever marked as former Adventists; we cannot change our past. We still have cultish baggage to process from day to day. It is good advice, for former Adventists, to worship on Sunday instead. It is difficult for Christians to get excited about Saturday--the day Jesus' body was entombed. It was NOT day of thanksgiving and joy for those that loved Him. On the other hand, Resurrection Sunday was indeed the greatest event ever witnessed by humankind. We, as Christians, need to keep afresh our focus on Jesus Christ. As we well know from experience, Sabbathing does not enrich our relationship with our risen Savior. Instead, it directs our minds continually toward a law-based religion. Thankfully, "Christ is the end of the law" (Romans 10:4). Let us joyfully celebrate our Lord's day! In Christ, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Well, see all of our studying does somebody some good-Today at work a co-worker who is Methodist was talking about the wonderful sermon they had yesterday on the Sabbath (the mention made me gasp and my head spin a 360', not really) we had a good conversation on the meaning of a sabbath rest and a reason for it, she seemed to be from the legalistic view of keeping a day Holy, though she felt it could be Monday if one chose. I explained my whole belief from the beginning and we ended reading Hebrew 4. She did see my point but I think she wanted to think about it some more. I'm always amazed that this is indeed a deception that has managed to cross all denominations. Satan has really used this subject to distract from the purpose of the cross, not only with SDA's. I was impressed to hear Dr. Price (TV EVANGELIST) preaching a sermon on the subject telling the congregation that they have to get past the sabbath being Sunday. He said "The Sabbath is one thing, Sunday is another, and the two have nothing to do with each other" AMEN!! Hope you're all having a wonderful TAX day! ha\ Sabra | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Good point, Sabra. Sabbath is a deception that has crossed denominational boundaries. Actually, the role of the law is a misunderstanding that has crossed the boundaries. Praise God for the new covenant which demands no taxesómerely everything we are and have! Colleen | ||
| Redhorsewoman Registered user Username: Redhorsewoman Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 |
Interesting thoughts. Thank you. In researching this subject for the friend about whom I have previously spoken, I came across a website that had some interesting thoughts on the matter. The main one that struck me was that every principle that was outlined in the Ten Commandments was reiterated in the New Testament EXCEPT for the one about the Sabbath. Also, when Jesus was asked which of the Ten Commandments was the greatest, he replied that the Ten Commandments could all be summed up in two....love God and love your neighbor. That, along with the fact that the Sabbath "principle" was never reiterated for Christians seems to me to be quite telling. I also wondered if SDAs kept all aspect of the Sabbath law, which included a Sabbath of one year's length every 7 years, at which time nothing would be planted or harvested in order to give the earth a rest; and the 50th year Jubilee Sabbath when all debts were cancelled, slaves were freed, and people would return to and take over their orginal homes (that they might have lost due to indebtedness or some other problem.) If they do not keep ALL of the Sabbath requirements, then are they not breaking the Sabbath law anyway? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1993 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great insights, RHwoman! Indeed, Adventists do not keep all the Sabbath laws. They argue that Jesus showed us how to REALLY keep it--that it had been corrupted by the Jewish leaders. I don't ever remember hearing any discussion about those Sabbath laws straight out of Leviticus which Adventists will never keep. It's all "pick and choose" and play sleight-of-hand with the texts. You would probably enjoy reading Dale Ratzlaf's "Sabbath in Christ". It discusses in detail the OT law/Sabbath requirements and how the NT fulfilled them. He's very clear how Adventism misses the mark in these regards. Colleen |
