| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 289 Registered: 7-2003 |
I watched a biograpy on A&E last night about the life of Vernon Howell aka David Koresh. It was pretty interesting. The biography cursorily dealt with his background as an SDA and even went so far as to call Adventism "a sect". However, oddly enough, when the biography recounted Koresh's expulsion from Adventism, the impression was given that he joined another completely unrelated sect. No mention was made of the fact that SDAs and Branch Davidians share the same 19th century prophet (EGW), that they have fought over the use of the name SDA for several years (some Davidian websites still say, "Branch Davidian Seventh-day Adventists"), or that nearly all of the Davidians in the Wacco compound were either current or former members of the SDA church. I don't think you can truly understand the rise of David Koresh or the demise of the Wacco compound unless you understand its roots within Adventism and the progression of thought that led to it. SDA and Davidian views on endtime events are virtually identical because they are grounded in the teachings of EGW. The real difference between mainstream Adventism and its Davidian offshoot is that mainstream Adventists tend to pick and choose which beliefs and teachings they will live out to their logical conclusion while Davidians make no compromises. Some examples: if we're to keep the weekly Sabbath, why not the monthly and yearly Sabbaths as well?(Davidians do). If God gave an authoritative prophet to interpret the Bible for His church in the 1800s, why wouldn't he do so for every generation?(Davidians have a string of prophets). If we're living in the end times and we're told we should get away from the cities and prepare for the time of trouble, why don't we do as we're instructed? (Davidians have). I would argue that if every single SDA truly studied ALL of EGWs writings and tried to obey and observe ALL of her writings as written, that there would be virtually no difference between the two groups. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 185 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting, Chris. I also understand that the Davidians believe the time may/will come when God will tell them, as he told OT Israel, to go out and kill their enemies. Richard worked years ago with an ulta-conservative SDA (not a Davidian) who came to work one day and said, "I've had to ask myself, if God told me to kill his enemies, would I be able to do it? I've had to decide that I would have to be ready to kill if God told me to." There's no doubt about it: strict Adventism that takes EGW as seriously as she said she should be taken leads people into anti-social, paranoid, neurotic, and even psychotic behavior. If people are known by their fruits, these fruits put EGW and her "gift" and work into quite a bad light. I know I keep saying this, but it keeps becoming more and more deeply true: the farther I get from Adventism, the more crazy and cultic it appears. It's astonishing what mental gymnastics people go through (as I did for years) to excuse EGW and hang onto some vestige of respect for her. She was clearly corrupt, and the fruits of her writings are true craziness or hopelessness. Praise God for the Bible. I love the song "Ancient Words". As the lyrics say, they are "ancient words, ever new/changing me, and changing you". That song still makes me cry. I can completely reject the "new words", the "lesser light", and when I do, those ancient words come to life in a way I never dreamed possible! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Mary_jane Registered user Username: Mary_jane Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, I can't agree with you more about what the fruits of EGW's writings are. We have friends in AZ who have studied in great depth into her writings. The more they studied the stranger their ideas became. They finally gave up and decided it (and the Bible) were all rubbish. Also my first cousin (on both sides, my Mom's sister married one of my Dad's brothers) had Parkinson's disease (which I adamantly believe was from being a total vegetarian "Meat never touched his lips"), was extremely handicapped by that disease, and sat at home and read EGW on a daily basis. He became so extremely depressed and suicidal from what he read, that his wife feared to come home from work every day, because she thought she would find he had killed himself while she was gone. You certainly can see from that sort of reaction that her writings were not a good thing. Granted he had other problems, but something uplifting might have helped him greatly. Her writings didn.t On another note: while I lived in TN there was a rumor going around that some Branch Dividians had planned to go into some SDA churches on various Sabbaths during church services and kill all the people there. I would think that was just a crazy rumor, but some people seemed to think it was true. I think the BDs they were talking about were from South Carolina. I guess there are a lot of them around. Best Wishes! MJ | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 287 Registered: 7-2003 |
I thought the Davidians would have died off with Koresch. I didn't even know any from that group still existed. I wonder what they do for a leader.... | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2000 |
The Branch Davidians were actually begun by Victor T. Houteff in the 1920's. He formalized his teaching in the two volumes of The Shepherd's Rod. Volume 1 was published in 1930. Volume 2 was published in 1932. The group Houteff started has been known as Shepherd's Rod and Branch Davidian Seventh-day Adventists. Perhaps the most notorious of their teachings, as Colleen and Mary Jane have pointed out above, is their killing of false Seventh-day Adventists. After including a talk on the Branch Davidians as part of a weekend seminar I used to give on the cults, (mostly in SDA churches), I received in the mail over 600 pages of literature from the Branch Davidians, anonymously. It concerned me. I had clearly labeled them as a cult. I lived in New Mexico at the time, and there were PLENTY of ultra-conservative whackos on the loose and IN CHARGE of too much in the churches there. I read the literature. They clearly present the fact that the time will come when the Branch Davidians will have to fulfill Ezekiel 9. Ezekiel 9:1, Then He cried out in my hearing with a loud voice saying, "Draw near, O executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand." NASB Read the entire chapter. The Branch Davidians believe that they will be the ones who go through the "city" (read SDA church) and "put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst." (verse 4) Once the "remnant" (the most devout/conservative SDAs) has been marked in the forehead, the false believers, those who do not have that mark, will be slaughtered. The Branch Davidians are still alive and well and attending SDA churches all over this country. The SDA church is not a safe place to be. Especially if the church is a more "liberal" or "evangelical" SDA church. That's where an over-zealous Davidian may take matters in his/her own hand to begin separating the true SDA "sheep" from the "goats." The SDA church is a Cult. It has all the earmarks of a Cult. It is as dangerous as any destructive Cult in existence today. Just like all the other Cults, it is only a matter of time before Waco is repeated all over again, OR WORSE! The two former Branch Davidians that I got to know were, well, unusual. Their marriage fell apart due to some horrible stuff. I believe the woman was either possessed or psychotic (in an evil way.) The Branch Davidians have simply done what the SDA church is capable of in quicker fashion, due to the lack of organizational restraint. And as Davidians can be on the verge of a mental breakdown, so are the SDAs who are trying to "make sense" out of the mess that is called "SDA Theology." Just my 2 cents, Steve | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2004 |
I made an interesting notice. I read one finnish discussion site and it¥s religion thread. There was a woman who didn¥t mention which religion she confessed but I guessed in no time that she was SDA. One ex-SDA recognizes SDAs! She talked about mercy and love and christian freedom, but it was weawed into those so familiar phrasings (about duty and law) that it wasn¥t even hard to make that conclusion. Cult members are always deep in the cult and you can¥t talk or think no other way as hard you may try. Sorry, not David¥s Branch reply, just my notice... Tuija | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 291 Registered: 7-2003 |
Steve, that's fascinating information. I had never heard of the Davidians' duty to cleanse the SDA church through violence. Kind of scary stuff. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 289 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yes, Steve. Very interesting. thanks for sharing. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 504 Registered: 11-2002 |
Some thoughts of mine about the SDA church leading people into becomming total spun fanatics- Of course, we need to realize that most folks are normal and well developed emotionally. However, there are certain groups that fanatics gravatite towards and the SDA denomination is one of them. Right now there is a SDA commune in Tennessee of total fanatic SDA's. My SDA kin have loved ones there and my "normal" SDA kin refer to this compound as "the cult" as if to distance themselves from the fact that the people at this commune fir the SDA/EGW defination of Historical Adventist. One of my SDA kin who is totally distraught with me begommina "a Sunday Keeping Lutheran" once asked me if there are any fanatical Lutherans. After giving her question some thought I finily said there are fanitical Lutherans but to be a fanitical Lutheran is totally wonderful, whereas to be a fanatical SDA is a miserable state to be in. She then wanted to know why I think like this and I told her, "Well, in my opinion it is wonderful to be fanitical aboyt grace". End of conversation. It is very sad that so many people give up there entire identies to these cults. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2000 |
Interestingly, it was the 1993 General Conference Communicatons Director, Shirley Burton (now retired and living in Lincoln, Nebraska) that initially contacted the Federal authorities about the Waco group allegedly being suicidal. Apparently, for more than one reason, the GC was concerned about a report from an Australian source who had a relative in the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas. History amply verifies that Adventism spawns an abnormal quantity of scandals, power struggles, theological controversies, offshoots, and social misfits. Despite this extreme element in Adventism, there are still many honest-hearted seekers for God's truth. My heart truly aches for those still enslaved in legalism. Praise God, there are more people leaving Adventism than ever before. Let's continue to pray for our friends and loved ones still struggling in the complicated grip of Seventh-day Adventism. Lest we forget, but for the grace of God, we would still be ignorantly enslaved. As former insiders, we are well-equipped to reach out to struggling and inquiring Adventists. Being that many people graciously assisted our belief transitions, we must emulate that legacy for those still remaining. In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Debbie Registered user Username: Debbie Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes Dennis, I agree. And as further encouragement (I hope) I would like to post the words from a song by the Christian artist Sarah Groves. (This song can be found on Sarah's CD "All Right Here") I myself have been able to identify SO much in SO many ways with this song. To me, this song speaks of the healing that Jesus not only offers but is able to fulfill in all who willingly open themselves up to Him. The process is slow, subtle. But in Him ONLY can we ever be free. "For you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." John 8:32 "So if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed." John 8:36 LESS LIKE SCARS ñ Sara Groves and Nate Sabin Itís been a hard year But Iím climbing out of the rubble These lessons are hard Healing changes are subtle But every day itís Less like tearing more like building Less like captive more like willing Less like breakdown more like surrender Less like haunting more like remember And I feel you here And youíre picking up the pieces Forever faithful It seemed out of my hands, a bad situation But you are able And in your hands the pain and hurt Look less like scars and more like character Less like a prison more like my room Less like a casket more like a womb Less like dying more like transcending Less like fear, less like an ending And I feel you here And youíre picking up the pieces Forever faithful It seemed out of my hands, a bad situation But you are able And in your hands the pain and hurt look less like scars Just a little while ago I couldnít feel the power or the hope I couldnít cope, I couldnít feel a thing Just a little while back I was desperate, broken, laid out Hoping you would come And I need you And I want you here And I feel you And I know youíre here And youíre picking up the pieces Forever faithful It seemed out of my hands, a bad bad situation But you are able And in your hands the pain and hurt look less like scars And in your hands the pain and hurt look less like scars And more like character | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 189 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks for those lyrics, Debbie. They're wonderful. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 512 Registered: 11-2002 |
In California we have a community of Shepheard's Rods living up in the mountains not too far from Yosemite. As a child I think my parents took me with them several times but it was only several times as it was over 50 miles one way to get there and they could be weird enough without the ewncouragement of the S.R. group. And, truly I was raised in a very schitzophernic religion. My parents sent me to SDA school from 3rd through 5th grades. During this time they would take me on Saturdays to the SDA Sabbath School but across town was the Church of God (Seventh-day) and it followed the same schedule for Saturday worship as the SDA so after Sabbath School we'd have to get in the car and race across town for the sermon over there. Then we went to the Worldwide Church of God meetings in the afternoon on Saturdays because they held their Saturday services in the afternoons. It really was truly weird. In 5th grade at age 11 I made a vow to myself that when I grew up I was not going to be part of my parents stupid religion. I'm sorry if my language offends anyone on here. That is the word I thought when I was 11, "stupid". | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 513 Registered: 11-2002 |
In California we have a community of Shepheard's Rods living up in the mountains not too far from Yosemite. As a child I think my parents took me with them several times but it was only several times as it was over 50 miles one way to get there and they could be weird enough without the ewncouragement of the S.R. group. And, truly I was raised in a very schitzophernic religion. My parents sent me to SDA school from 3rd through 5th grades. During this time they would take me on Saturdays to the SDA Sabbath School but across town was the Church of God (Seventh-day) and it followed the same schedule for Saturday worship as the SDA so after Sabbath School we'd have to get in the car and race across town for the sermon over there. Then we went to the Worldwide Church of God meetings in the afternoon on Saturdays because they held their Saturday services in the afternoons. It really was truly weird. In 5th grade at age 11 I made a vow to myself that when I grew up I was not going to be part of my parents stupid religion. I'm sorry if my language offends anyone on here. That is the word I thought when I was 11, "stupid". | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2004 |
Susan, it sounds like your parents were really seeking something... trying to find God through "hyper-churching" themselves, and not being satisfied with it. When you (general) are focused on religiosity rather than than on Christ, the more you do, the deeper the desperation gets. It is like drinking sand to satisfy your thirst... Lots of action, no results! Did your parents ever find the security they seemed to be seeking? | ||
| Another_carol Registered user Username: Another_carol Post Number: 252 Registered: 12-2002 |
I like that tealeaves. Never heard it put quite like that. Is that orginal? If so you have a great way with hyperpoles. I'll be listening for more. It's a joy to read your posts, Carol | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 566 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Tealeaves, It's so interesting what you wrote about my family. I say this because just recently (around one month ago) my mom made the same comment about me that you say about them. She's hoping that this Lutheran phase I'm going through is just another phase of mine. I think she thinks of it like a fad I'm experiencing, like when the Maccaranena was all the fad and me and my friend went out to a Latin club so we could Macacranena, or something like that. My mom told my I shouldn't go to church on Sunday. I told her, "Well, you watch Faith for Today every Sunday, at campmeeting the SDA's all go to church on Sundays, it's for sure that at Monterey Bay Academy we had to go to church on Sundays so why is it wrong to go hear the Word of God in a Lutheran church on Sunday?" She told me to stop acting stupid and left the room. It ALWAYS ends up like that. If my SDA kin don't have a decent answer for me they personally attack me trying to beat me down with insults and trying intimadation and trying to lower my self esteem and then they get frustrated because it doesn't work. At the very nanosecond these attacks are happening I pray and ask for guidence and so far the Good Lord has given me the perserverance I've asked for EVERY TIME. In fact, Tealeaves, when I first was honest with my mom when she asked me if I actually am a member of the Lutheran church and I answered "yes" she asked me if I was taking classes in torturing commandment keepers now (code for SDA's). It's this attitude that SDA's have that makes me think of the SDA more and more as cultic, a lot more than the loony doctrines. It's their attitude of us against them, them being all other Christians as non-Christians don't seem to frighten SDA's. Just remember the 2000 presidential election and the excitement that so many SDA's had as the thought of having a Sabbath keeper in the White House (Joe Lieberman). My relatives were all gaa-gaa about thinking we'd get a Sabbath keeper as vice president. I said I preferred voting for the Christian who would lead our country through Christian principles and again I ended having to pray for quick guidence as my kin along with most SDA's really fear the "religious right". |
