| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8209 Registered: 9-2006  |
There was a forum member recently that had some questions about the duration of hell or something to that order. I just listened to pastor Gary Inrig on a teaching about the subject of hell that was very good. He is teaching former Adventist. The title of the teaching is 'The second death'. If a person has questions on hell, this video will certainly be worth your time. Look it up on Youtube. | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 406 Registered: 5-2011  |
Thank you. | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2016 |
Here's a non-SDA presentation on "hell": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4 | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 102 Registered: 8-2012 |
The video is by Dr. Edward Fudge. SDAs often use him to justify their denial of the Biblical teaching on eternal punishment. I think Dr. Fudge's book on the topic may still be sold in SDA bookstores. An excellent book I read on this topic several years ago is called "Death and the Afterlife", by Dr. Robert Morey. In this book he covers, and I think refutes, Fudge's arguments for annihilation. | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2016 |
Not everything SDA teach is wrong. I agree with them on annihilation.... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15432 Registered: 12-2003  |
Welcome to the forum, Setufree314. The state of man in death is one of the later and harder doctrines to grapple with...but if Scripture is the inerrant word of God (and it is!), then what it says has to be true. The Adventist teaching on the nature of man is wrong, and that error skews the doctrines of sin, salvation, and the nature of Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:1-9 and Philippians 1:22-23 are very clear that "we" (the real, essential US) reside in mortal tents, but we are present with the Lord when absent from the body. And that being present with the Lord is "very much better" according to Paul in Philippians 1:22-23. Also, 1 Thess. 4:14 states unequivocally that God brings with Him those who have fallen asleep, and then the dead in Christ rise. He brings them WITH Him! It's absolutely wonderful and comforting and amazing! Plus...the dead do not interact with the living. The Adventist teaching that if people go to heaven when they die, then they'll see us here and possibly show up as spirits...these teachings are utter nonsense and are not biblical. The dead are with Christ, and they do not interact with the living. We don't know WHAT they do or what that intermediate state is like because Scripture doesn't tell us. It just tells us that it is "very much better" than remaining here. Taluur is right; the Adventists use Dr Fudge as "their witness". The fact that he is a non-SDA does not give credibility to the Adventist position. If a person is not consistent with Scripture, their testimony is not credible, no matter who he or she is! All to say...Scripture cannot lie because it is God's word to us. God cannot lie. He is faithful! Colleen | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2016 |
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with the position of an immortal spirit/soul, that is, a position that insists that something lives on after the death of a believer and enters heaven itself shortly after the death of the body. But first let me look at your reference, 2 Cor 5:1-9 Verse 5 For we know that if our earthly house, the tent we live in (i.e., one's fallen "body" - see verse 8), is dismantled, we have a building from God, a house not built by human hands, that is eternal in the heavens. Please note that we already (present tense) have a new creation - i.e., "a building from God...eternal in the heavens". That is why Paul states, "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation" 2 Cor 5:17 So we, as children of Adam, already have a glorified "building" in heaven itself. I'll give you some more verses to prove my position: "For He (God that Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col 1:13,14 NASB Note that according to Paul, God has already transferred "us" (our "new creation") into heaven itself. "God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...." Eph 2:6 NIV God "raised us up with Him (Christ), and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." NASB So, I can conclude, that "in Christ" I now have a "new creation", holy & blameless before God. Since I already have a glorified life "in Christ" why does some component of my fallen life need to go to heaven upon my death? The answer is something doesn't go to heaven at death because the believer already has his new life residing "in Christ" right now as I write. Now lets turn to Col 1:22 "He (Christ, our High Priest) has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach..." Are we "holy and blameless"? No! We are sinners saved by grace. Then why does Paul state we are "holy and blameless" in Christ's "fleshly body"? Because at the resurrection Christ was raised, not as He was before (see 2 Cor 5:16), but with a glorified, sinless new creation. He took this corporate life to heaven where He represent our new lives "holy & blameless" before God Himself. Therefore "in Christ" we are complete by faith. See Col 2:10 I know I'll get a lot of questions. Setufree214 (Message edited by setufree314 on October 06, 2016) | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2016 |
If one believes that he has an immortal soul then he must also believe that something "good" resides in his fallen humanity. The question is do we have anything good in our fallen, humanity? Clearly not: Mark 7:21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” So "within" us there's nothing good and immortal. Paul agrees: Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells..." Since nothing good dwells in our humanity then no component of us is naturally good. The whole man, body, soul & spirit has been polluted by iniquity. Therefore, "As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one.'" Rom 3:10 We must understand that sin and mortality are linked as are righteousness and immortality. To say we have some component is us that is immortal is to say we have something good in us that doesn't need the righteousness of Christ. Hence the teaching of an immortal soul is a self-righteous, anti-gospel doctrine. Apparently SDA are not the only ones teaching subtle legalism. (Message edited by setufree314 on October 08, 2016) (Message edited by setufree314 on October 08, 2016) | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2016 |
As I previously stated, "We must understand that sin and mortality are linked as are righteousness and immortality." Here's evidence: 1 Cor 15:47 "The first man (Adam) was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man (i.e., "the last Adam" - see 1 Cor 15:45) is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust (Adam) so also are those who are made of dust (i.e., his fallen, offspring); and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly (compare Eph 2:6). 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust (Adam), we shall also bear (future tense) the image of the heavenly Man (Christ)." Please note verse 49. We are now in the image of fallen, Adam. We are unrighteous and mortal. In the future, at the 2nd coming of Christ, we will then bear the image of the last Adam! When do we bear the image of the last Adam, Christ? verse 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (remain dead), but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (i.e., at the 2nd coming). For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this....mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when ... this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” Please note the clear context: We are now mortal - body, soul and spirit. We must be changed into the image of Christ. Only then will this mortal, sinful life be immortal & righteous. Again, the teaching of an immortal soul is a self-righteous, anti-gospel doctrine. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15434 Registered: 12-2003 |
Setufree, this forum is not a place to teach Adventist doctrine. When reading Scripture, words matter, and context is everything. If one were to read the Scriptures as one reads a normal book of literature or history or science, one would get a specific meaning from the words: the essential "we" or "us" leaves the mortal tent and goes to be with the Lord. To argue that something good resides in our mortal body is a completely assumed idea, not implied in the text at all. We are born literally dead (Eph. 2:1-3), citizens of the domain of darkness from which we must be transferred when we believe (Col 1:13). We are spirit-beings, with spirits God-breathed at creation. It is our spirits that died in Adam in Genesis 3. We are born spiritually dead, and our bodies are born doomed to die. It is life in our spirits that God gives us when we believe; we are born again, as per John 3:3-6. When we believe, we do not come into judgment. Those who do not believe, on the other hand, are judged already because they have not believed (Jn. 3:18). When we are born again and given spiritual life, sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14), we never die, as Jesus told Martha in John 11. Our bodies will die, but our spirits do not. Jesus demonstrated exactly what happens to us when we die. Our bodies go into the grave, but our spirits go to Paradise with Him, as He told that robber who was crucified with Him. Jesus told the man in Luke 23:43: "Truly, truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." The Greek underlying this text leaves absolutely no room to be interpreted the Adventist way, that the comma was put in the wrong place. The Greek is clear: Jesus was telling this man that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day. They both died that day, and both the believing robber and the Lord Jesus were in Paradise together as their bodies were buried. Jesus had inherent eternal life because He was God and He was sinless. He was born with a living spirit that did not have to be born again. He was the only human ever conceived with spiritual life; it is this fact that qualified Him to be our sinless Substitute. He was not sinless because he did not sin; rather, He did not sin because He was sinless. Without a biblical understanding of spiritual life and death, of our natural identity as born dead, of the new birth, and the illustration of Jesus' death and resurrection, the idea of annihilation might be argued. But when one reads the Word using normal rules of grammar and vocabulary, there is no confusion. We are spirit-beings, and the Lord Jesus came to restore our life which was our identity at creation. In Jesus we are brought to life; when we are alive in Him, we never die. This reality is the reason Jesus could say God was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of the living, not the dead. Setufree, we encourage questions and discussion. We are not, however, a place where people are free to argue for unbiblical ideas and to seek to sway people away from the truth of Scripture. As you undoubtedly know (and as your posts suggest), it is extremely hard and requires time to unpack our Adventist worldview. It requires commitment and humility to bow before God's word and to admit it is inerrant and sufficient and is understood clearly as the Holy Spirit teaches us through it. It does not reveal itself through the logic and intellectual arguments we construct. Truth is in Scripture, and the Holy Spirit who "is the Truth" (1 Jn. 5:6) testifies with our spirits those things that are real in Christ. Colleen | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 2005 Registered: 2-2011  |
Colleen~ Thank-you for writing the post 15434~ explaining the subject at hand, and also clarifying the position of this Forum~ I agree with you on both counts~ ~mj~ | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2016 |
Colleen said: "Our bodies will die, but our spirits do not." "The wages of sin is death", right? Our bodies die because we are sinful, but you have our spirits living on. This means that our spirits are righteous and immortal. If that's the case, and it is not, then something good does exist in us. But Paul says nothing good dwells in us. It sounds like you are presenting legalism. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3227 Registered: 5-2007  |
No, We are seen by God as righteous only because of Jesus shed blood that covers all our sin and our spirit is born again (the same human spirit that died in Adam on the day he first sinned) eternally. Jesus Christ is our righteousness. It is not of self as there is nothing good in self. In the same way God called Job and Abraham righteous who looked forward to the promised lamb of God, through the shed blood of Jesus, we are imputed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Until you understand what died when Adam and Eve on the very day they sinned it will be hard for you to understand what Colleen is saying. Phil | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2016 |
We all know that the body returns to dust; that is dies. Paul refers to our fallen bodies as the "body of sin" (NASB) or "the body ruled by sin" (NIV), sin being our bent-to-self (iniquity). So we know that our bodies are sinful and therefore mortal. What about our soul - is it immortal? What does the Bible state? "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ez 18:20 And, BTW, “all have sinned” (Rom 3:23) therefore "the soul" is not mortal, which infers it is not sinless and righteous. The soul too is fallen, polluted by "indwelling sin". If it were immortal then Jesus would not have stated that He would "destroy" “both soul and body in hell” Matt 10:28 Only one component remains: Our spirit. At the creation of mankind God formed in us our spirit that it might be His point of contact with us — His dwelling place in us. Through our spirits, He would direct our minds (our souls), which in turn would control our bodies [see Colossians 2:19]. Thus, the entire person, living in total dependence on God, would reflect His character of selfless love [see 1 John 4:7-8]. What is our spirit? Is it a disembodied entity like a ghost? No, our spirit is intangible. Instead of being a disembodied entity it is location within our minds where God's Spirit can communicate with us. You see all three components - body, soul & spirit - are interdependent. When one ceases to exist the others cannot function. Therefore the whole man dies and his only hope is the resurrection. There's nothing in us that is naturally good and holy. If there was then it wouldn't need the righteousness of Christ. Therefore the doctrine of the immortality of the soul attacks the gospel. (Message edited by setufree314 on October 12, 2016) (Message edited by setufree314 on October 12, 2016) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3228 Registered: 5-2007 |
Setufree314, You are defining and altering biblical truth through an SDA mindset. Scripture never says our spirit is located in our minds. That only comes from the mind of Ellen G. White. Here on this forum we have rejected her and her words as that of a failed false prophet. There is no truth in her. Phil | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2016 |
I am not here to defend EGW. I am not here to defend the SDA church. I left my local SDA church back in 1997. I have not attended any church since then. I am a non-attending Christian. The Bible is my the measuring stick of truth. If I err prove it from the Bible and in context. I am not infallible and the folks here on FAF aren't either. | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2016 |
Phil said: "Scripture never says our spirit is located in our minds." 1 Cor 3:16 "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" Exactly where does God, who is Spirit, dwell? Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man... What is "the inner man"? verse 17: so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Christ's Spirit dwells in our hearts (our minds), but specifically "the inner man". "The inner man" exists within the mind. Thus our "inner man" is equivalent to our "spirit". Thus I conclude that our spirit exists within our mind/heart. I termed this "the inner mind". | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2016 |
If I am wrong that our spirit is within our mind/heart it really doesn't matter. Why? Because the bottom line is our spirit (the inner mind or the inner man) is not sinless and therefore it is not immortal. Sin has polluted everything within our fallen, humanity. In other words there's nothing in us that is good & righteous of itself. We are not 66% sinners with the spirit being sinless. We are 100% sinners, body, soul and spirit, saved 100% "in Christ" plus nothing else. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 104 Registered: 8-2012 |
One of the drawbacks I have seen with many of those who have left cultic religions and reject being a part of a healthy, theologically sound church is that they hold on to the same faulty methods of interpreting the Bible and the pride that often goes along with it. It is so easy to get off base and refuse virtually any kind of correction when a person engages in "lone wolf" Christianity. Being a part of a local healthy, Biblically sound church does help to encourage believers and provide Biblical reasons why, for example, Christians from apostolic times did not hold doctrines like "soul sleep" or annihilationism to be true. | ||
| Setufree314 Registered user Username: Setufree314 Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2016 |
Taluur, that was a cheap-shot. Are you suggesting that your church has a monopoly on truth? Are you suggesting that it is infallible? Instead of minimizing me to a "lone wolf" why didn't you disprove me using the Bible in context? |
