| Author | Message | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1953 Registered: 2-2011  |
Chris~ Yes, you are so correct~! "...God of both infinite love and infinite justice, infinite grace and infinite wrath." Walt~ It seems to me that you have created a 'god' in "your" own image ! And in doing so have "broken" the First Commandment ! ~mj~ | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1954 Registered: 2-2011 |
James 2:10 tells us~ "For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point is guilty of all." (KJV) I believe this applies to what I stated above regarding the First Commandment. ~mj~ | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2015 |
The expression "immortality" is only found in the New Testament. And it occurs fewer than half a dozen times. One is I Timothy 6:16 which states that, of all humans, Jesus Christ "ONLY hath immortality"! Another, Romans 2:7 states Christians should "SEEK FOR ...immortality." QUESTION: If we already had immortality, why would we have to seek for it? And yet another, I Corinthians 15, the resurrection chapter of the Bible, indicates that a Christian "puts on" immortality at a future resurrection of the dead (see verses 50-54). As Jesus clearly stated: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Humans are not created with inherent immortality. "For dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Gen. 3:19). | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1851 Registered: 7-2003  |
Agreed. No one has argued that they are. Only God is inherently immortal. Or to put it another way, only God possesses immortality in the ultimate sense, created being do not. That's not the question. The question is whether or not people's choice to be separated from God in life is then ratified by God in eternity or if He instead simply chooses to snuff them out of existence. God could snuff people out because, no, they are not immortal in the ultimate sense. He could, but the question is, does He and what has He said about this. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15329 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ultimately we are faced with a decision: will we believe Scripture without rationalizing it, or not? If it appears to contradict itself, will we assume that we have to accept all of it using the normal rules of grammar and literary context, or not? If we cannot understand something in Scripture, we have to assume that, as God's own word, it is true however we question it. We don't explain it away; rather, we pray and ask God to show what what is true and ask Him to apply His word to our lives and to plant us deeply in reality and truth. When Jesus talks of eternal punishment, we cannot explain that away because it causes us to cringe. If we instinctively loathe a God who would judge some of His creatures to eternal punishment [because He is the sovereign God to whom all things are laid bare], if we cannot trust Him with that and honor and love Him, believing that He is consummately just and merciful, then I question whether we are actually alive in Jesus. When we repent of our sin and trust Jesus, believing He bore our sin and paid its price in full, His Spirit indwells us. It is His Spirit who implants His word in our hearts and gives us spiritual understanding, making His word come alive and "make sense". He doesn't teach us everything at once, but He shows us the beauty and reality of the gospel, and He gives us faith to believe that the God who gave His Son for our sin cannot be cruel. I have come to believe that if we cannot believe, trust, and love the God who does what Scripture says He does—if we have to explain away the plain words of Scripture and redefine its terms—then we are perhaps needing to go back to the gospel and grapple with the Lord Jesus. Have we really trusted Him to be sovereign over us and over our sin and our future? Do we trust Him implicitly without redefining Him and His word? If not, we need to throw ourselves at His feet and repent, asking Him to help our unbelief. Colleen | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2015 |
Quote from Colleen: "When Jesus talks of eternal punishment, we cannot explain that away because it causes us to cringe." _______________________________________________ I do verily believe the punishment for the wicked will be eternal/ everlasting, and I am not trying to explain that fact away. There will be no coming back, no serving time; no being released on probation. Because the wicked, as is indicated in Malachi 4, will "consume away into smoke." We have Revelation 20:9,10 and verse 9 tells us that those who were deceived by the Devil are consumed. “fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” the KJV renders. Eugene Peterson's The Message renders the Greek as “burned up.” So we ask how can something that is "burned up" continue to burn? That is a logical question. Rev 20:10 tells us that the Devil, the Beast, and False Prophet are cast into a lake of fire where they are tormented “day and night for ever and ever.” Well, now, that sounds rather convincing for everlasting fire. But the Greek word translated in the KJV as “Forever and ever” here is aionios which CAN also mean a “period of time," or age.” Curiously,aionios is also translated everlasting in Jude 1:7, as for the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. This fact can not be side stepped. If aionios can mean a “period of time,” or an “age” then we can not definitely know that Rev 20:10 is forever and ever. For as I pointed out earlier in the thread, this same Greek word, aionios is also used in Matthew 24, translated “everlasting fire.” And Sodom & Gomorrah is not still burning, is it?. Of course not. BUT, the RESULTS of the fire are eternal. And, so therefore, I do believe in everlasting punishment,... in that the results/ affects are "everlasting." Here is an interesting text, Nahum 1:9 “What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end.” That Hebrew word “kalah” (Strongs H3617), translated “utter end” interestingly means: completion, termination, full end, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation. It can't be any clearer than that. Lets look at this Hebrew word “kalah” as it is translated in ALL the other occurrences in the KJV Old Testament: end (11x), altogether (3x), consume (3x), consumption (2x), consummation (1x), determined (1x), riddance (1x). Not even once is it meant to mean forever. | ||
| Lettlander Registered user Username: Lettlander Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2015 |
Walt, the Greek word aion can mean an age, but the phrase occurring in Revelation 20:10 (quite apart from its plain as day context) can only signify eternality. This phrase (eis tous aionas ton aionon) also occurs word for word in Philippians 4:20 and 1 Timothy 1:17. Let's try your suggested translation for them: Now to our God and Father be the glory *FOR AN AGE*. Amen. Philippians 4:20 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory *FOR AN AGE*. Amen. 1 Timothy 1:17 Kaspars | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2015 |
But we know beyond doubt that God exists eternally, so I don't think we can use that argument to say that aionios always means eternally. It certainly does NOT mean eternal in Jude 1:7. Nor does it in Matthew 24, or the Mark 9 references of Jesus to Gehenna, the local Jerusalem city dump. I agree in eternal punishment. But I do not believe active punishment in torment continues eternally. There is just too much biblical evidence to support that it does not. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 87 Registered: 8-2012 |
Excellent point, Kaspars. For the annihilist's theory to work, one holding to that view typically redefines words like aionios when convenient. But the theory fails when the fuller context is taken into account, and the redefinition of words would consistently lead to God and fellowship with Him for the saved being temporary rather than eternal. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15333 Registered: 12-2003 |
Not to mention that "punishment" demands consciousness. If a living being ceases to exist, punishment ceases. Annihilation does not have the same meaning as punishment. Annihilation would end punishment. Colleen | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2015 |
Quote from Colleen: ________________________________________ "Not to mention that "punishment" demands consciousness. If a living being ceases to exist, punishment ceases." _________________________________________ This is correct. The same may be said of those criminals, today, who receive capital punishment, and are executed. Their death row cell is empty. Punishment concluded, completed, terminated, full end, complete destruction, consumed. I borrowed those last few words, for emphasis, from the Hebrew word “kalah” as it is translated is: Nahum 1:9 “What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end.” | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 88 Registered: 8-2012 |
Jude 7 is often used by annihilationists in an attempt to disprove eternal punishment.The argument usually goes that since Sodom and Gomorrah were reduced to ashes, and the NT describes this event as analogous to the judgment the wicked will face in the future, the unsaved will not face eternal punishment. However, analogies are meant to be carried only so far. For example, when Jesus compared His disciples to sheep (John 10), He obviously did not mean that His followers are the most senseless people on Earth. Rather, He was stressing that His disciples are dependent upon Him to direct their paths in the way of righteousness, just as sheep are dependent upon the leadership of a shepherd to keep them from harm. The physical punishment that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered for their wickedness was destruction of their physical lives. This catastrophic event was one of the best earthly examples that could be used to convey the idea of the type of judgment that eventually would be brought upon the wicked. Additional evidence from Jude shows that the example of Sodom and Gomorrah was in no way intended to be construed to teach annihilationism. Within the immediate context of the passage, after mentioning Sodom and Gomorrah, Jude said: “Likewise also these dreamers...” (verse 8). He next recorded a list of sins of which “these dreamers” were guilty. Then in verse 13, Jude commented that these sinners were “wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever”. His point was clear. Just as the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah once suffered earthly destruction, and were at present enduring continuing punishment (as evinced by the present-tense participle), those wicked men during the time of Jude could look forward to the same darkness and punishment for no less time than “forever.” So in the end, Jude does not teach that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is the actual suffering of the vengeance of eternal fire, but rather it is a pattern of the coming vengeance of God like the Old Testament ceremonial laws were patterns of God’s salvation program. Matthew 25:46 serves as a refutation of the theory of annihilationism. The word aionios is used seventy times throughout the New Testament. Three times it is used to describe God’s eternal nature (Romans 16:26; 1 Timothy 6:16; Hebrews 9:14). It is found over forty times in the New Testament, in reference to the unending happiness of the righteous (John 10:28; Romans 5:21; 6:23; 1 John 1:2). And five times it is used in reference to the punishment of the wicked (2 Thessalonians 1:9; Jude 7). In Matthew 25:46, the word appears twice. Once in reference to “eternal punishment,” and once in reference to “eternal life.” Simply put, if the punishment mentioned in this verse is temporary, then so is heaven. Contextually, the two are linked. Just as Jesus expected His disciples to understand heaven as a place of permanent, unending happiness for conscious souls of people, He likewise intended for them to understand hell as a place of permanent, unending punishment for conscious souls. The fact that Christ made a special point of repeating aionios in the same sentence requires that we stay with the plain meaning of the word. Both heaven and hell will be eternal in duration. | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2015 |
Taluur, I do certainly do believe that the unsaved will suffer eternal punishment. There's no coming back or being let off for good behavior, as in the catholic invention of purgatory. But eternal punishment does not have to mean eternal torment. Yes, we have Rev 20:10, which states that the Devil, beast and the false prophet are tormented day and night forever. And we have Jesus speaking of everlasting flames in Matthew 25:41, but both these texts have that Greek word, aionios, which is also translated as a period of time, or age. So, those that insist on there being a place of everlasting torment in God's Kingdom of glory, are holding to that with a very small amount indefinite scriptural meaning. Whereas the weight of scripture indicating the wicked will be consumed/ devoured, in comparison, is quite heavy. I am hearing that those who do not believe in everlasting torment are called "annihilationists." I guess those that want there to be a place of eternal torment can be called what? Asbestoists? Albeit, it is an interesting and fruitful discussion, and I am glad that it can be a civil one. God speed, Walt | ||
| Lettlander Registered user Username: Lettlander Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2015 |
Walt, you need to distinguish between aion, which can mean age (as I said above) from aionios, which in the New Testament always means eternal, as in duration of time. Kaspars | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2015 |
_________________________________________________ Qoute from Lettlander: "Walt, you need to distinguish between aion, which can mean age (as I said above) from aionios, which in the New Testament always means eternal, as in duration of time." ____________________________________________ I know this is like beating a dead horse, but it is vitally important. Aionios is found in Jude 1:7..... "Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal (aionios) fire." Sodom and Gomorrah is not still burning. How then can it be eternal fire--unless it speaks to the eternal EFFECTS of the fire. And if it speaks to the eternal effects of the fire, so to would be the application for the other one or two very rare instances in scripture. | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2015 |
"Five Reasons Why More Christians Are Rejecting The Traditional View of Hell" August 27, 2014 by Benjamin L. Corey 1. Something in our spirit tells us that torturing people is morally wrong. 2. The concept of eternal, conscious torment runs contrary to the whole testimony in scripture. 3. The final judge of each individual is Jesus, and torturing people seems contradictory to his character. 4. Jesus would become a hypocrite, demanding that we nonviolently love our enemies while he does the complete opposite. 5. We simply can’t get past the idea that we are more gracious and merciful than Jesus himself. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 89 Registered: 8-2012 |
Again, man judging an eternal, Almighty God by his own limited standard of morality. Similar arguments are made by those who find objectionable for "moral" and "compassionate" reasons the Biblical teaching that Jesus is the only way to salvation. (John 14) "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9) | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2015 |
More thought provoking thoughts from Benjamin L. Corey (One does not have to buy, hook line and sinker, evangelical dogma. You can investigate, and think for yourself. That's why God gave us grey matter)...... "If hell– a place of eternal conscious torment– is real, why did God wait so darn long to warn us about it? "Because you see, hell doesn’t exist in the Old Testament. And if hell were real, I’d expect it to play a much more prominent role in Scripture than it does. "When we see the creation narrative of Genesis, God does in fact warn Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But the consequence he warns them of? Death. "Not eternal torture in hell, but plain ole death. If hell were the natural consequence for sin, I am left to wonder why God wasn’t clear right from the beginning?" | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8206 Registered: 9-2006  |
Walt, I encourage you to read How To Know If You Are A Real Christian by Jonathan Edwards In this little book Edwards covers hell, demons, as well as what a true Christian is. I'm sure you can find it on the internet free to download. | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2015 |
I believe it was Jonathan Edwards, was it not, that was one of the evangelists in one of the U.S. "Great Awakenings?" No doubt his evangelism was effective, scaring the daylights out of people, scaring them in droves, into church. Yes, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. But it's just a beginning. We don't stop there. Are you saying that if a believer does not hold to the dogma of God burning people forever, that that person is not truly converted and not being saved? |
