| Author | Message | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 343 Registered: 4-2005 |
A friend of mine asked me how I felt about soul sleep since I had left the SDA church. I had not thought about it for so long and I actually misunderstood her question. Later I realized I really didn't!t answer her question. So someone please refresh my memory , where can I get some good information and why is it called soul sleep when they really don't believe in a soul? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15279 Registered: 12-2003  |
Now THAT is a really good question. I've come to believe that it's one more disingenuous label they give to cover the fact that they don't actually believe what Christians think their words mean. Adventists believe that humans ARE a soul, not that they HAVE a soul. They say that because God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul, the alive person IS the soul. Thus, their Adventist paradigm of Body + breath = living soul makes sense to them. They can have people who are physical bodies with a "life force", similar to electricity, in them, which is their "breath" or "spirit". When that breath leaves the body, the person/body dies. Only data of their personalities remains in God's memory. Since they say that death is a "sleep" (which the Bible says, but it refers to the "sleep" as the condition when the body and the spirit separate, not to a lifeless corpse with no spirit that remains in the presence of God), they then call their belief "soul sleep" because they have rationalized that a breathing body equals a soul. It's convoluted and confusing, but there is it. Colleen | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 344 Registered: 4-2005 |
Thanks, Colleen,that helps, I just hadn't thought about that for so long, life moves on and that just didn't!t come up with any other of my. SDA friends. We were busy talking About other doctrines or some of them don't want to discuss anything | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2015 |
I haven't set foot in an Adventist church in decades, yet their doctrine of soul sleep may not be too far off mark. I think it is unrealistic to hold that every single one of SDA beliefs is wrong. So, they could be right about this one. But maybe only this one. The rest of their doctrines are messed up. What does it mean in Revelation "death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire"? Or that in Revelation 21, we read that there shall be no more pain? If there is a place of eternal torment, then pain will remain. Yes, I know, there are MANY passages in scripture that appear to support an "immaterial soul/ immortality of the soul," yet the belief in an immortal soul clearly has pagan origins. Does it not? What is it, Romans 6? where Paul states that eternal life is a GIFT of God, through Jesus Christ? So, naturally follows the question concerning the wicked. Would punishing the wicked with eternal torment for just a few brief years of sin be considered to be "a gift?" Just some thoughts about this. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1841 Registered: 7-2003  |
Walt, I think something that might help you parse your questions would be to begin to develop a biblical/Christian understanding of "death" and "life". Adventism redefines nearly every term in the Christian language and one of the difficulties in transitioning out is learning the biblical meaning of words and then reading passages in that light. Biblically, death is always a type of separation. It can be spiritual, as in the separation between God and man that occurred the moment Adam and Even sinned. It can be physical, as in the separation that occurs during the intermediate state when the spirit is separated from the body. Adventism redefined death to mean "unconsciousness" or "non-existence", but that's not a Christian or a biblical definition. Both of the separations mentioned above are conscious states. Adventism then also redefined "life" to mean "consciousness" or "existence", and "eternal life" to mean "eternal consciousness or existence". But again, that's not biblical. In the Bible, "eternal life" is a quality of existence where the person is in eternal communion with God. The person experiences new life spiritually and is in relationship with God who is Spirit. By contrast, eternal death is eternal separation from the love and grace of God. Both of these states are conscious states. Simply put, life and death are not about consciousness or unconsciousness, they're about union or separation. Try rereading some passages with those definitions in mind and see if it has an impact on how you parse the meaning. I hope that helps. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15313 Registered: 12-2003 |
Walt, I remember when I first realized that I had understood "life" incorrectly. I had always assumed it meant that the body was conscious and functioning. When I realized "life" was connection with God, being filled with His life and reconciled to God with my sin no longer separating me from Him, my understanding of reality shifted. I began to understand why eternal life and eternal death were so significant. Eternal death doesn't mean non-existence; it means an eternity separated from the life of God. That sort of existence would be utterly incapable of ever progressing, resolving, or flourishing. It would be utter despair. It is this dreadful consequence the Lord Jesus came to "undo" for all who believe. Chris, thank you for that cogent explanation. Colleen | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2015 |
Thanks, Colleen, & Chris. When God declares to the wicked, as Jesus said He would, "Depart from me," where will they go? Jesus mentions in Mark 9, several times, "where the flames die not," and in Matthew, three times, He mentions "outer darkness." In Mark 9 the Greek word that is translated flames, and hell, are from "Gehenna," a place in the Valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the trash, and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned. Of course, the flames there never went out, for people kept throwing trash on it. Is Jesus here, describing separation to a place of eternal flames? Or, is He saying "Don't let your life wind up on the scrape heap?" And I am still puzzled over the wicked being given eternal life, for as I mentioned in my first post, according to Romans 6, "eternal life is a GIFT of God, through Jesus Christ." John 3:36 "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life." (I looked in a lexicon and both words here for "life" are the Greek "zoe") | ||
| Asetechrail Registered user Username: Asetechrail Post Number: 79 Registered: 1-2010  |
My understanding is that the wicked are given "eternal death" not eternal life. Eternal death is eternity spent outside of Gods life, outside of Gods love, suffering Gods wrath for eternity. | ||
| Asetechrail Registered user Username: Asetechrail Post Number: 80 Registered: 1-2010 |
The question is not "is there life after death?" The question is "is there death after life?" It appears that there is, it's called the second death. Not just saved people are resurrected. Both saved and the wicked are resurrected and given their resurrection bodies. The saved to spend eternity with God and the wicked to spend eternity without God. | ||
| Lettlander Registered user Username: Lettlander Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2015 |
SDAs and Annihilationists of all stripes should simply listen to the words of Jesus: "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3) Jesus didn't come to bring mere eternal existence. | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2015 |
Thank you for your contributions, Asetechrail & Lettlander. And thank you for bringing up the scripture regarding "the second death," which, as I recall from scripture, occurs after the "second resurrection." I think a good question to ask now is: Do the wicked also have "immaterial souls" that transport to eternal punishment at the end of their mortal earthly lives? And if they do, then what purpose does the second resurrection, and second death have? Is it so that, after the judgment, their resurrected bodies would be joined with their souls, already in hell? Also, I think we should seriously consider just what the "second death" really is. Second death sounds quite permanent: Revelation 20:9 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1944 Registered: 2-2011  |
Walt~ I would like to suggest that you go to the FAF 'Home Page' and click on the most recent Proclamation magazine page taking you to the article written by Colleen~ In this article I believe will be answered your questions regarding our immaterial spirits and the 'second death'. Also, helpful, would be the 2014 issue of Proclamation regarding abortion. ~mj~ | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2015 |
Thanks, MJ. First, I want to say that I wish not to be categorized as an "Annihilationist." I am simply a truth seeker, and I love God's Word. MJ, you refereed me to Colleen's article, which I have read. But I still am having a difficult time believing the wicked have indestructible, immaterial spirits. Especially when we read in Revelation 20:9, that "fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." "Devoured" in Rev 20:9 is from a Greek word which occurs only 15 times in the New Testament, most often translated "devoured," but also means utter destruction. Malachi 4 also informs us the wicked will be ashes. How then can one say the wicked have immaterial spirits? Utter destruction appears quite thorough. | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 70 Registered: 8-2012 |
The denial of eternal punishment is by definition an important tenet of annihilationism, and those who subscribe to this point of view are called annihilationists. "Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:41, 46) "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10) These are just a few passages, but I fail to see annihilationism taught in them, or in some of the verses offered by proponents of annihilationism. They affirm eternal punishment. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1945 Registered: 2-2011 |
Walt~ A 'spirit' is a 'spirit' whether someone wants to categorize it as 'good or evil' is beside the point~ The LORD is very clear in HIS New Testament teachings what will happen to a human's 'spirit' when the physical body dies. You stated you are a "'truth-seeker' and love God's Word'." I recommend that you study Scripture with prayers for the Holy Spirit to teach you and give you discernment and wisdom. I do not find it helpful to take Scripture verses out of context and discuss. I find it far better to read what comes before and after the one verse in question for a more clear understanding. ~mj~ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15318 Registered: 12-2003 |
Walt, using Revelation 20:9 to prove the wicked are burned up is to take the verse out of its context. Notice that Rev. 20:7-10 describes the time at the end of the millennium right before the great white throne judgment. This passage is describing the last great battle when Satan and his forces attack "the saints and the beloved city", and then if says that God simply stops the war by destroying the enemy armies with fire from heaven. They are killed by God Himself...but killed just as people we know now are killed. Verse 10 gives a bit further insight. Just after God destroys the armies by fire, He throws the devil into the lake of fire "where the beast and the false prophet are also." Notice that the beast and the false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire before the millennium commenced, at the end of chapter 19. They (both of them human) are still there, in the lake of fire. Then it says the devil and his two human side-kicks will be tormented day and night forever and ever. After God kills the adversaries and does away with their demonic general, He then sets up the great white throne judgment. It is now that He raised the wicked dead for judgment, and He resurrects them...just as He resurrected the righteous at the start of the millennium. Now God throws death and Hades and the wicked into the lake of fire, and John specifically states, "This is the second death, the lake of fire." He doesn't say the fire destroys them to death. He equates the lake of fire with death. People tend to equate "death" with a lifeless corpse...and the first death does look to us in the physical world like lifeless bodies. But this passage clearly identifies death not with the existence or non-existence of the persons, not with bodies that are animated or lifeless—but with the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Being thrown into the lake of fire is to be thrown into the second death. The Scriptures do not describe the second death any further than this...and we already know the beast and the false prophet have been in this lake of fire for a millennium already. When something is destroyed, it ceases to be able to function as the thing it was created to be. If I destroy a house or a bicycle, for example, I don't cause the materials to cease to exist. The rubble will remain but be unable to function as they were intended to function. When a person is destroyed body and soul, he is no longer able to function as a human as God made him to function. God made us to function with His own life in us, but if we are separated from the life and power of God but confined in RESURRECTED bodies, we won't cease to exist; we will simply be unable to be functioning as living humans. We were taught to define "death" unbiblically. We were taught it mean to cease to exist except as a decaying corpse which would eventually disappear. The Bible describes something very different. It describes the first death as the separation of body and spirit (think of Jesus on the cross), and it describes the second death as eternal torment away from the life of God. Colleen | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2015 |
Taluur shared some verses, in context, from Matt 25..... "Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:41, 46) This is a parable of the king, and Jesus concludes in verse 46 by stating it is not fire, but "everlasting punishment." The Greek implies "penalty," or a sentencing. It's a death sentence. The "second death." Only God has everlasting life, and also to whosoever He shall give it. "And the serpent said to Eve, 'You shall not surely die.'" | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 71 Registered: 8-2012 |
Walt, If eternal punishment in Matthew 25:41,46 can be dismissed as a parable not to be taken for what it really says, then eternal life would have to be dismissed as well, would it not? The same word that describes eternal life (aionion) also describes eternal punishment. The Greek text here actually describes a penalty that is an ongoing experience. Punishment (kolasin) to be experienced requires existence. There is no punishment in annihilation. As Colleen pointed out earlier, eternal life in this context refers to the quality of life God gives to those who trust in the merits of Jesus alone for salvation, not mere existence. Genesis 3:4 does not negate the Biblical teaching of eternal punishment. So it cannot be legitimately used as a prooftext against it. I know this is a very uncomfortable, unpleasant teaching, but it is better to believe Scriptural truth than something that is comfortable but not true. | ||
| Walt Registered user Username: Walt Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2015 |
Thanks, Taluur! Taluur posted: "Punishment (kolasin) to be experienced requires existence. There is no punishment in annihilation." Well, if we look at this world's criminal courts and penal systems, does a death sentence (punishment) that is carried out, require existence? Not after the person is dead. Right? "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28 There is that word "destroy" again, which I see, in the NT, is most often translated "perish." [perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x)] John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Those who insist in their being eternal torment, seem to be saying that the Father gave His Son so that whosoever [including the wicked] should not perish. Which we know is not the case. Psalm 37:10.... "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." This isn't taken out of context. Check out Ps 37 and you will see. Godspeed, Walt | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 72 Registered: 8-2012 |
Hello Walt, What is being discussed here is not the human criminal system, especially since it fails to deal with the text of Matthew 25:41,46. "Kolasin" refers to a punishment that is experienced. Is seems what you are doing is trying to look for other verses to negate what Jesus said in this passage. Again, as has been pointed out earlier, life does not refer to mere existence but quality. Life with God or life apart from Him. By the way, a car that is destroyed in a wreck does not cease to exist. It ceases to function according to its original design. Also, Psalm 37 is not dealing with the final judgment, so it looks to me that using verse 10 to negate eternal punishment is taking it out of context. |
