| Author | Message | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 82 Registered: 5-2011 |
I thought this was well organized and could be valuable to some here. http://119ministries.com/the-law-of-god-vs-the-law-of-moses | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1931 Registered: 2-2011  |
Anewman~ Thank-you for the link~ ~mj~ | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 376 Registered: 10-2003 |
Here is a two part blog on the topic. http://asbereansdid.blogspot.ca/2010/10/law-of-moses-law-of-god.html?m=1 | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1934 Registered: 2-2011 |
Jdpascal~ Thank-you for the link~ ~mj~ | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 660 Registered: 4-2014 |
LOL.....Here's the part that Adventists and Armstrongites have problems with: Circumcision MUST take place on the 8th day, Sabbath or not. It trumps the Sabbath, and CLEARLY requires actions that would violate the Sabbath. Adventists HAVE to admit this (Cf: Genesis 17). They claim Circumcision is a "non-moral," "purely-ceremonial;" law, whereas the Sabbath is a "moral law" since it is in The Ten Commandments. (no way can the Hebrew be translated into "Ten Commandments," by the way). Here's the rub: A supposedly "non-moral law" that is NOT in the "Ten Commandments" trumps a "moral" law that IS in the "Ten Commandments!" They then have to backtrack and admit that ANY command of God MUST be obeyed, and not to do so is per se "immoral." Genesis 17 repeatedly stresses the mandatory nature of Circumcision on the 8th day. Disobeying that command is inherently immoral, according to Adventists. Adventists will also tell you it is immoral not to tithe, or to eat pork and shrimp. None of those are in "The Ten Commandments." They have simply been cherry picked. Hence, ALL 613 Commandments of the Old Testament are revived and they jump right up and bite you in the face if you choose any of them. Simply put, the Law is an all or none proposition. You cannot separate it into piecemeal chunks at your whim. (Message edited by Resjudicata on December 16, 2015) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2189 Registered: 6-2006  |
Along with what Resjudicata wrote, I usually ask why SDA's do not keep and observe the Passover. They are always bragging that they keep God's commandments and insist that everyone else should as well, but they never have an answer when I say "I assume you keep Passover as well". I guess Ellen didn't have much to say on the subject? It really doesn't matter that it's "ceremonial". The book of Exodus refers to it as a commandment, a law and a lasting ordinance: The Feast of Unleavened Bread Exodus 12:14 Now this day will be a memorial to you, and you shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations you are to celebrate it as a permanent ordinance. Exodus 12:24 "Obey these instructions as a lasting ordinance for you and your descendants. Exodus 13:9 This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the LORD is to be on your lips. Exodus 23:15 "Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread; for seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt. "No one is to appear before me empty-handed. There are several more verses to back up Passover and of course we know Jesus observed it as well. If you're going to insist on keeping Jewish laws, Passover should be every bit as important as the 10 Commandments, don't you think? Leigh Anne | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2273 Registered: 7-2004  |
I once calculated that SDAs only advocate following roughly 1/3rd of the 613 commandments in the OT law. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15300 Registered: 12-2003  |
So true! Res, that circumcision "thing" is one of the issues Jesus addressed directly in John 7:22-23. He points out that circumcision—which, He stresses, isn't even "from Moses" but is from Abraham who predated the law—trumps the Sabbath. If circumcision trumps the Sabbath, then, He challenges the Jews, why are they angry because He healed someone on the Sabbath? Adventists truly have redefined and reshaped the law to fit their private interpretations. Colleen | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2011 |
After watching the video above, and doing some Hebrew seaches, I can see that Aseret Ha-d'varim should be translated the ten "sayings or words," not commandments. When I go to blueletterbible.org, in Exodus 34:28, it shows the Hebrew as "eser dabar." These two phrases seem a close match to each other, but why does the Hebrew that blueletterbible shows not match the aseret ha-d'varim language the video suggests is actually used? Thanks for any help. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 665 Registered: 4-2014 |
Anewman, The original Hebrew was not mis-translated into something called "The Ten Commandments" until 1560, when the Geneva Bible first adopted the term. That the "Ten Commandments" were a moral guide for Christians was first considered and adopted at the Roman Catholic-only 4th Lateran Council in the 1200's. It was codified into the Catholic catechism at the Council of Trent, the counter-Reformation, Roman Catholic only-council. Such an innovation had been totally unheard of for the first 1200 years of Christianity, which had insisted that the Sermon on the Mount was the moral guide for Christians. In order to separate the "Ten Commandments" as a "moral guide" from the rest of the 613 Commandments of the Old Testament, the intellectual groundwork had to be first laid by Roman Catholic theologians St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. And these artificial, contrived and formalistic distinctions were facilitated by the division of the Bible into Chapters and Verses in the 16th Century, by a Roman Catholic Cardinal; a Roman Catholic Bishop; and a Roman Catholic Dominican Monk. Without the artificial division of the Bible into verses, Adventism would be impossible, since it is entirely based on the misuse of "proof-texts." Adventism's debt to Roman Catholicism is simply monumental and enormous. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 666 Registered: 4-2014 |
Grace Alone, The Christian Easter celebration was the Christian "replacement" for Passover. The genesis of how this occurred is just stunning. Adventists insist on the KJV of the Bible, but reject its clear and correct reference to "Easter" in Acts 12:4. The First Century Christians were already celebrating Easter by the time of the Acts of the Apostles! The vast, overwhelming majority of Jewish Christian Converts in the First Century were Hellenized Jews, who were more "Greek" than "Jewish." They had abandoned the Sabbath, Circumcision and the anti-Pork laws some 200 years before the Birth of Christ. What is amazing is that they continued observing Passover as their only retention of Jewish customs. They did this as a result of the Greek translation of the Old Testament ("the Septuagint") by the Jews of Alexandria, and which transformed the Torah from being a mere law book of the Mosaic Law; into an effervescent typology of the coming Messiah. The entire story of these remarkable Jews is set forth in The Books of Maccabees, which had been a part of the Biblical Canon until they fell into disuse and were abandoned as a result of the Protestant Reformation. That 80 percent of Palestinian Jews; and 95 percent of diaspora Jews in Alexandria, Rome and Greece were Hellenized Jews has been confirmed by modern-day Social Science. Statistically-significant samples were extracted from First Century Christian Funerary records, and analyzed with multi-variate regression analysis. This is a massive repudiation of Adventist theologian Dr. Samuele' Bacchiochi's dismissive treatment of the Hellenized Jews in his book, "From Sabbath to Sunday." The Hellenized Jews constituted the vast, overwhelming majority of Jewish Christian converts. Rereading the New Testament with this in mind is just amazing. The obvious correlation between Passover and what the Hellenized Jews witnessed during the Easter events was just too amazing to overlook. This is why Adventism has such hatred for Easter: it is founded on nothing but "Resurrection Denial," and a false view of the Hellenized Jews that constituted the basis of the Church in Jerusalem, combined with the Gentile Christian converts, who had never been under the law in the first instance. | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2011 |
Res, My wife is one who holds dearly that the KJV is the only correct translation of the Bible. I always find it ironic that she is quick to characterize Easter as "pagan" when the word is plainly used in Acts in the KJV. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 668 Registered: 4-2014 |
Anewman, Or they will point out that it is more accurately translated as "Pascha." Which is true, but what they forgot to notice is that Eastern Christianity has celebrated the Resurrection on "Pascha" Sunday for 2,000 years. Only in the West is it called "Easter." Since the KJV was translated for Western Christians, "Easter" is a clearly correct translation. Nowhere in Ellen's or Dr. Samuele Bacchiochi's vast writings on history is Eastern Christianity ever mentioned, nor is the fact that Constantinople was the capital of the Roman Empire during the entire period that Ellen and Bacchiochi argued that Roman Papal superiority developed. The "center of gravity" of both Christianity and the Roman Empire was Constantinople during that entire time. Constantinople is 900 miles from Rome. ALL of the Ecumenical Councils of early Christianity took place within a 200 mile radius of Constantinople, and the Pope attended NONE of them. I easily drove from Ephesus, Turkey (which is the southernmost city where a Ecumenical Council was held); to Chalcedon, Turkey (the northern-most Ecumenical Council City); in an afternoon in a lipstick red Mustang GT convertible. Okay Okay! I "may" have "slightly" broken the speed limit, once or maybe slightly more than once. It wasn't like I meant to. Ellen insisted that the Sabbath was "pressed lower" at each of the 7 Councils and that "Sunday was correspondingly exalted." You can look for yourself online, in any of the searchable webpages. You will find that neither Sabbath or Sunday was ever mentioned at any of the Church Councils. EVER. It is painfully clear that the Sabbath question was settled once and forever at the Council of Jerusalem in AD 52, as set forth in Acts 15. | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 85 Registered: 5-2011 |
Res, Sometimes I have to force myself to take a break from thinking about it. I assume otters have felt this way, but it can make me angry when struggling to understand how one could concoct this deception into truth. | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2011 |
Others | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 670 Registered: 4-2014 |
Anewman, It is utterly mindboggling when you realize the utter depraved fraud and vast web of lies that constitutes the foundation of this cult. Simply put, I know of no other institution of any size in history that has been similarly based on nothing but lies. All other institutions - since they are human - are based on less than perfect information. They have to be. But Adventism is nothing BUT lies. That is simply unprecedented. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2190 Registered: 6-2006 |
Res, VERY interesting, thanks for the reply! You hit the nail on the head in your summary. You're right, there's a real hatred towards Easter with the SDA's. (Of course, Easter takes the emphasis off the 10 commandments and points to Christ's resurrection.) The dumb thing is, it's so easy to Google the early church to find out it was established a few hundred YEARS before the Catholic church and it's papacy was established. Then again, it's also very easy to read the Bible in context (instead of proof-text reading) and come to the same conclusion that Gentiles were never given the Torah... | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 671 Registered: 4-2014 |
Grace, You just said something that struck me as particularly profound: You said: "Easter takes the focus off the 10 commandments and points to Christ's Resurrection." Easter takes the focus off of ME, and focuses on the Resurrection and on HIM that deserves all of the focus! It is all about HIM. The Ten Commandments diverts the focus to ME, and whether I am "observing" them correctly. It is all about ME. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2191 Registered: 6-2006 |
Res, Isn't that the TRUTH!! Yes, thank you.  LA | ||
| Grace2 Registered user Username: Grace2 Post Number: 46 Registered: 8-2013 |
@ Anewman Thanks for the link to 119 ministries in the first post. It seems to me that the author tries to make us believe that because the law of Moses and the law of God are the same, the 10 commandments are still binding on us. Did I misunderstand? That is what SDAs don't tire of saying. My reason for not committing adultery, stealing or killing is not that the 10 commandments say so but that the Holy Spirit tells me this is wrong and that he puts this into my heart. | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 88 Registered: 5-2011 |
Yes you misunderstood. He is saying that those who try and make a distinction between Law of Moses and Law of God do not understand the scriptures that the 613 laws in Torah encompass the whole Law of God. As such, when Christ released us from the Law, it included both Law of God and Law of Moses, since they are one and the same. | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 89 Registered: 5-2011 |
Grace2, Originally, I was drawn to the title of this message because of the SDA view that the Ceremonial Law was done away with, but that the Moral Law still applied. I am not, nor have never been SDA, so I think in my mind I had applied "ceremonial" to Law of Moses, since I have no recollection of the word "ceremonial" ever being used. Because of that, my assumption was that anyone illustrating these two things are the same surely is doing to illustrate that when Romans says we were released from the Law, that we were released from the entire Law. As I perused the 119 site, clearly this group thinks the entire Law is still binding. My apologies for missing that. I certainly do not want to lead anyone back to this mindset. My original intention was that the message of the video illustrated clearly no distinction between the law of God and Moses, so that would lead a clear-headed person to conclude that not just one was nailed to the cross, but both. Again my apologies for not investigating further. | ||
| Xenonlion Registered user Username: Xenonlion Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2014 |
Res, I totally agree. |
