| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15183 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm sharing here an article that Paul Carden linked to me. It discusses what the biblical "unclean" means, and it explains how the OT food laws were never about "health". Neither were the OT hygiene laws. The ritual "clean and unclean" has specific meanings and reasons for Israel; they were not timeless "good advice" to keep everyone healthy: www.wordofhisgrace.org/uncleanmeats.htm Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on July 22, 2015) | ||
| Asetechrail Registered user Username: Asetechrail Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2010  |
I have been reading wordofhisgrace.org for a couple of years now. Peter Ditzel is a great writer with amazing insight into many biblical subjects. You should also read his articles on the sabbath. http://www.wordofhisgrace.org/christiansabbath.html | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 531 Registered: 4-2014 |
Dear Colleen, The ritual "clean" "purity" and "purification" laws of the Old Testament are one of my favorites, that I have been studying intensely lately. Oh boy, you got me started now...... Jesus flaunted the purity and ritual cleansing laws REPEATEDLY by consorting with lepers, demoniacs, Gentiles and prostitutes. There is NO record of him "fixing" the problem with the prescribed ritual cleansing baths, sacrifices or washes. The place of these ritual and cleansing laws is paramount under Jewish law. And yet Jesus violated them with impunity (just like I have argued that he violated the Sabbath repeatedly). And yet Adventists NEVER claim that Jesus "sinned" by violating the ritual cleansing and purity laws. I wonder why that is? Yet Adventists pounce on a few of the food laws (bans on pork and shellfish and so on) but IGNORE the ritual laws controlling the way flesh is butchered (complete lack of blood, careful and elaborate removal of the sciatic nerve and so on). They "punt" by declaring that vegetarianism is essential for Salvation and "flanking" the argument that their revival of these laws is unbiblical. Oh, we didn't get these ideas from the Bible. We got them from our prophet! How convenient! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3499 Registered: 7-2007 |
I always point out to SDAs that God told Noah he could eat "every moving thing that lives" as well as the green herb - Genesis 9:3; but that later God separated Israel from "unclean" meats because He was separating them from the Gentiles - Leviticus 20:24-26. Then I point out how Jesus tore down the wall of separation at His death - Eph. 2:11-16 and that Peter received a vision in Acts 10 showing that Gentiles were no longer "unclean." | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15185 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great points! Res, I completely agree. I have long noticed that Jesus broke every single ritual law of the Mosaic covenant WITHOUT ever performing any of the required rituals for cleansing. Jesus made clean and whole everything He touched; death and uncleanness had no power to soil the Lord Jesus. He alone was the Messiah who could make the lame walk, the lepers clean, and the dead live. He was performing SIGNS (as John calls them) as he went through His ministry doing these things. The SDA food laws are just...arrogant. They require a low view of the reliability of Scripture, and they place Adventists' reasoning over the clear teaching of the Bible. Colleen | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 532 Registered: 4-2014 |
Asurprise; My favorite is this: 1 Corinthians 10:25-27 New International Version (NIV) "25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[a] 27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience." I was in Corinth for about two weeks or so. Imagine my shock and horror when two experts on the subject told me that the "meatmarkets" of ancient Corinth were famed worldwide for their almost exclusive trade in pork and pork products. You might find beef or lamb there once every blue moon or so, but pork was the primary meat sold there. Ancient Greeks revered pork, that is why they sacrificed pigs in the Jewish Temple during the reign of Antioch Epiphanes: pork was the "nectar of the gods" in Greek thinking and the only worthy thing to be sacrificed. The huge Temple of Aphrodite on the hill above Corinth sacrificed exclusively pigs. Anything other that pork was almost unknown in ancient Corinth. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15189 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very interesting, Res. That historical data certainly highlights the significance of Paul's council in 1 Corinthians 10! Colleen | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 535 Registered: 4-2014 |
Colleen, Its too bad that the Protestant Bible does not contain the Books of Maccabees anymore. During Antioch Epiphanes' occupation of Jerusalem, the Greeks sacrificed pigs in the second Jewish Temple and slaughtered Jews who refused to eat Pork. The Greeks HATED the Sabbath, the Jewish Food Laws and Circumcision with a passion. Nothing has changed in Greece in 2,000 years. Greece has the lowest rate of circumcision in the Western World (less than 2 percent). Adventism has been toiling away there for about 150 years, and the entire country of 30 million has fewer than 1,000 Adventists, most of which are African immigrants. It took 30 years before Adventism won its first "convert" in Greece: a drunk that died drunk a few years later. Live in Greece and you will see in a short time that the Greeks HATE the Sabbath, Jewish Food Laws and Circumcision with just as much passion today as they did in the day of Antioch Epiphanes. Adventism is simply a non-starter in Greece for that reason. Ironically, Jehovah's Witnesses have about 30,000 members there and the Roman Catholic Church (which Orthodox Christian Greeks hate with a passion) has about 50,000 members. And there is Adventism: less than 1,000 members in the whole country, and likely less than 500 if Adventists were capable of telling the truth about their sorry situation there. In Greece, everyday it seems you are slammed between the eyes with a 2x4 that says "Adventism is impossible." After your first month in Greece, it slowly dons on you that no Greek Christian EVER kept the Sabbath or abstained from Pork. Never. Not one. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15192 Registered: 12-2003 |
That makes so much sense...and it's extremely interesting. Comparing Adventism with JW and Catholics is significant, I think. The difference certainly seems tied to the "Jewish"-ness of the SDA framework. Significant insights. Colleen | ||
| Mainexile Registered user Username: Mainexile Post Number: 194 Registered: 6-2008  |
Hey gang, All I know is, Ellen laid down the law regarding "Clean" foods...end of discussion! LOL "Those who have received instruction regarding the evils of the use of flesh foods, tea, and coffee, and rich and unhealthful food preparations, and who are determined to make a covenant with God by sacrifice, will not continue to indulge their appetite for food that they know to be unhealthful. God demands that the appetite be cleansed, and that self-denial be practiced in regard to those things which are not good. This is a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people." Testimonies for the Church 9:153, 154, 1909; Councils On Diet and Foods, p. 381) Sorry...couldn't resist. | ||
| Mainexile Registered user Username: Mainexile Post Number: 195 Registered: 6-2008 |
Asurprise, I have used the "every moving thing that lives" in Gen 9 in conversations with Adventists too. Amazingly, they reply, "How about people? People are alive and move on the Earth too! Is it OK to eat people? So God couldn't have really meant everything, just certain clean things." ...incredible! | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 544 Registered: 4-2014 |
Mainexile, How do Adventists get around 1 Corinthians 10:25-27, that commands Christians to eat everything out of the meat markets? And the fact that the Ancient Corinth meat markets virtually sold ONLY Pork. Corinth was world-famous for its pork products that were shipped all over the world. Only pigs were fit to sacrifice as the massive Temple of Aphrodite, the ruins of which overshadow ancient Corinth on a hill above it. | ||
| Mainexile Registered user Username: Mainexile Post Number: 196 Registered: 6-2008 |
Resjudicata, I honestly don't know. It's one of those verses that they conveniently ignore when reading 1 Corinthians 10 I guess. But they love to quote verse 31, which states, "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God" And then say, "God set rules for proper diet and distingwished clean and unclean. I want to give glory to God in all that I do." This is a perfect example of proof texting which Adventists have developed into almost an art form to justify a predetermined narrative. The author of that narrative being Ellen White. The prophet must be protected and proven right at all costs. As to the historical fact that the Ancient Corinth meat markets virtually sold ONLY Pork,....I've never heard that before. Interesting! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 10341 Registered: 3-2004  |
When I was working in VA I was working with a Jewish dietitian. I forget how we got on the subject. I told her that adventists eat like the Jews, the clean meats. She then asked me if they ate kosher. That stopped this big mouth, who thought she was being a good sda. Diana | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3502 Registered: 7-2007 |
Mainexile; it's frustrating that SDAs take any excuse they can to believe the way they've been taught. I've heard that excuse too! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15196 Registered: 12-2003 |
It's just so dishonest. The Adventist "reasoning" on these things is convoluted, non-contextual, and dishonest. They refuse to accept the clear meaning of the words. They come to Scripture with a mindset that allows them to argue meanings manipulatively. They'd never get away with that sort of reasoning in a literature class! But when it comes to Scripture...the words are there for their amusement rather than for their instruction. They get so much pleasure out of manipulating and morphing the text! Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 122 Registered: 5-2011 |
Hi Res, Can you point me to any historical documentation that the meat markets in Corinth sold mostly pork? Thanks, Anewman | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 767 Registered: 4-2014 |
Anewman, As far as online sources go, here is one that describes the excavation of the "macellum" or meatmarket of Ancient Corinth, where Christians were buying food offered in sacrifice (Citing: H.J. Cadbury, ‘The macellum of Corinth’, JBL 53 (1934) 134-41). Cadbury's book goes into the greatest detail about the almost-exclusive sale of pork and pigs and pork products at Corinth's meatmarket. http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_1992_43_2_09_Gill_MeatMarket_1Cor10.pdf Here's an article that described the central place of pigs in Greek sacrificial rites. http://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2000/08/4837.html And here, on Page 28, it sets forth that Pork was consumed after the sacrifice at the Temple of Aphrodite: https://books.google.com/books?id=y22vAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Pork+offered+as+sacrifice+Temple+of+Aphrodite&source=bl&ots=JgFTxwIktw&sig=NzVnsm2zPGTINEdALNSsOSl6suI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi92ae00efQAhUPxGMKHTwhBJQQ6AEIPzAG#v=onepage&q=Pork%20offered%20as%20sacrifice%20Temple%20of%20Aphrodite&f=false And here, it establishes that swine were the predominent sacrifice at the Temple of aphrodite: https://books.google.com/books?id=UD8TAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133&dq=Pork+offered+as+sacrifice+Temple+of+Aphrodite&source=bl&ots=fROw68B78S&sig=8ZfofpLyDqwxm5VitIW6-aNH1w4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi92ae00efQAhUPxGMKHTwhBJQQ6AEISzAJ#v=onepage&q=Pork%20offered%20as%20sacrifice%20Temple%20of%20Aphrodite&f=false Remember, the Temple of Aphrodite had at least 1,000 prostitutes and its temple was world-famous to Roman and Greek sailors. Thousands of pigs were sacrificed there everyday. http://thesmartset.com/article11210701/ | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 123 Registered: 5-2011 |
Thanks Res. You continue to be a deep fountain of info. Appreciate it. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 768 Registered: 4-2014 |
Anewman, I may get rich someday, marketing a book that exposes the dark underbelly and conspiratorial-intrigues of the ancient Corinthian sacrificial-pork economy. In the soon-to-be-released major motion picture, St. Paul will be played by Brad Pitt. | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 124 Registered: 5-2011 |
If Pitt is unavailable, let me know. I am willing to fill in. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 769 Registered: 4-2014 |
Anewman, I see it as a "who done it" type of mystery. "Where is all this singed pork coming from?" and "Why is it flooding the Macellum?" And "Who is this Jewish nut job that is urging those crazy Christians to eat this stuff?" | ||
| Anewman Registered user Username: Anewman Post Number: 125 Registered: 5-2011 |
I imagine the SDAs will show it at a revelation seminar or vespers service. |
