| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15002 Registered: 12-2003  |
I had posted this in the members' section, but Carolyn asked that I also put it here so more people can read it. It's interesting that the divinity of Jesus has always been downplayed in Adventism. Jesus' incarnation was not good news in Adventism; it was almost a maudlin event that was syrupy sweet and complicated. What on earth did we do with Jesus as Adventists, anyway? He just put us to shame, avoiding sin and showing us that the law COULD be kept. Have you every pondered that in an Adventist framework, Jesus assumed the work the law was given to do? The law was given to show us we were sinners and could not avoid sin. Yet in Adventism, the law was "keep-able", and Jesus is the One who showed us we couldn't be as good as He was. He was our Example...and we were the failures. In reality, however, Jesus was our Savior who took the curse the Law demanded we take. It is the Law that shows us we are hopeless sinners; Jesus doesn't do that. Jesus rescued us from the law; He didn't come to show us we could keep it. Just the opposite; He came to fulfill the law because we COULDN'T keep it, and it was condemning us all to hell. This Christmas, it's awe-inspiring to realize we are worshiping our Substitute, not our Example. Colleen | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 390 Registered: 4-2014 |
And as an aside, it turns out Jesus was a really really TERRIBLE example for Adventists, given his open and willful violation of the Sabbath. | ||
| Islander Registered user Username: Islander Post Number: 86 Registered: 4-2014 |
Yes, those examples are just like I was taught as a kid. Jesus was our example- bit only to a certain point, not all the way. Jesus partied and had a good time at the wedding reception but we are not allowed to have a glass of booze ever, not even a glass of wine. Jesus ate meat but we are supposed to be vegetarian because EGA said so. There is plenty in the Bible about filling the mind and heart with appropriate thing's but I was taught to read fiction was wrong. Jesus met with all sorts of sinners but my mother's favorite text was the one that says, "avoid the appearance of evil". My experience was the SDA'S I knew used Jesus as their example to their personal whim. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 542 Registered: 5-2009 |
I was taught not only that Jesus was our example, but that He did not use any means to keep the law that was not available to us to do so: prayer, scriptures, to overcome temptation & thus not sin. It was not because He had any 'advantage' over us -- we have the same means available to us as He did. This ultimately makes us our own savior, & Jesus is merely a model for us. TOTAL denial of His blood sacrifice for our sins. Thus his 'flesh' had no advantage over ours. This denies that we were condemned in Adam before we were ever born, before we ever exercised our first choice or our own will. SDAism is total focus on Law. NO Grace. There is no New Covenant for SDAism, not really. | ||
| Xenonlion Registered user Username: Xenonlion Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2014 |
I agree. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1800 Registered: 7-2003  |
"This denies that we were condemned in Adam before we were ever born, before we ever exercised our first choice or our own will." Very true. In addition, it also denies the full divinity of Jesus. Jesus was fully, 100% God while also being 100% man. He wasn't some amalgamation of the two, some where in between (as in Greek mythology). He fully possesses both natures in their entirety, God and man in one person. If this is true, if He is 100% God then He cannot sin. It is not possible. The Bible is very clear that God cannot sin. So Jesus, as God in the flesh, cannot sin. So, if we say that Jesus had no advantage over us when it comes to sin, we are in effect engaging in a de facto denial of His full divinity. | ||
| Mountaingirl Registered user Username: Mountaingirl Post Number: 94 Registered: 8-2013 |
Oh Colleen, I so agree. Trying to keep that law drove me to give up, finslly knowing that I was tired of even trying. Then a miracle happened I found Christ, the gift of salvation He has given me because He kept the law for me. Now I am in awe, instead of thinking how unfair it was that God expected me to be perfect as Christ is. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 394 Registered: 4-2014 |
One of the most horrifying things about Adventism is running into ex-Adventists who have not received the Gospel. They are a truly clinically-depressed and hopeless bunch as a rule. Many of them become committed to various pathological sins, since "why not, I am doomed anyway?" In my professional career, I estimate that I represented close to 100 ex-Adventists, none that I recall having received the Gospel. Invariably, their poor doomed spirits grabbed onto some sort of sexual deviancy. Rape, child-molestation, child pornography....that sort of thing. I think it is probably the only thing that makes them feel "alive" temporarily. They were all pathetic dead souls. This in my opinion is a direct result of a non-Divine Jesus. I once described to a local judge the fact that I had graduated from the local academy. He was fascinated and enthralled by the fact that I had won 10 seemingly-unwinnable jury trials in a row, so he brought me back in chambers and started peppering me with personal questions, trying to figure out "who is this guy, and where did he come from?" When I told him I had graduated from the local Academy, his face could not hide his profound disappointment. He told me that he wished he had the power to shut it down, since it was nothing more than a "cesspool and breeding ground for criminals." His face lit back up when I told him I had left the cult at age 22 and never went back. At that time, I had never taken any time to re-examine "what was THAT all about," so I am afraid that I did not give a very good analysis of Adventism to him. I think he would be overjoyed to know that I had finally discovered the Gospel. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 10227 Registered: 3-2004  |
When my husband divorced me, I equated Jesus with the sda church. So I told Him, I am going to die anyway, so I am going to be the best sinner I can be. I was. Thank God He waited patiently for me. | ||
| Islander Registered user Username: Islander Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2014 |
Dear Diana, you might want to go to oldlutheran.com and purchase the tee shirt that says,"sin boldly" with a picture of Martin Luther. It's a just for fun shirt. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 10228 Registered: 3-2004 |
Islander, I laughed when I read your post 88. I am just very thankful that God was patient with me. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 1473 Registered: 5-2009 |
Colleen & JRT-This is such an eye-opening realization. Sometimes I have to hear something multiple times because adventism was so deeply embedded in my mind. In a manner of speaking, Adventism tries to make Jesus a "curse" before His "hour was come" to become a curse when "hanging on a tree!" Again, an illustration in one of the SDA publications comes to mind: yes the illustration has a cross in it, but behind it & much larger than the cross is a big stone 10 commandments. We were taught that the law outshone, was more important than, Jesus our Savior. We were taught to "cozy up" to the law & were proud to do so. We, b/c EGW said no one would enter heaven without Sabbath-keeping, in effect made the law our Savior, not Jesus! Wow. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15083 Registered: 12-2003 |
It's true, Nowisee. The "Garden of Grace" at Andrews next to Pioneer Memorial Church is set up to reflect Adventist doctrine. You enter the garden by descending seven stairs (for the "seven days" of creation—there are really only six) and entering in front of the cross. One enters at the foot of the cross which (and all of what I'm describing is explained in the legend which stands beside the garden) is in front of a reflective granite wall in which one sees a giant Ten Commandments standing at the opposite end of the garden. The legend explains that one enters by way of the cross and reads, "I Will Come Again." After being at the cross one turns and faces the law and walks toward it where, the legend says, one finds and enters into the heart of God the Father. So...after entering by way of the cross, one turns away (in the garden, this is literal) from the cross and walks toward the law. In the LAW is where one finds God. But that's not all; in this garden, the ground is cement. There is a different color of cement embedded into the rest of the garden floor that one walks on to get to the Law. And here's the clincher: the pattern one walks on is a cross, and the person walks on it upside down. In other words, the top of the cross points to the cross, and the bottom of the cross is at the law. So you walk on an upside-down cross to get to the law. The end of the Adventist "gospel" is the law. It is not Jesus; it is not the cross. It is the LAW. The LAW is the ultimate end of the Adventist gospel. The curse is where they go. The redemption from the curse is disrespected. Colleen | ||
| Islander Registered user Username: Islander Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2014 |
Dear resjudicia, I read your post 394. It very interesting. The class one year behind me at the local sda school I attended had around 30 kids in it. Half boys,half girls. Most the boys from that class have served prison time as well as a few of the girls. I knew the parole agent to several of these sda criminals. The parole agent told me per capitia the sda school produced more criminals than any other school in that large city, both considering private and public schools. I asked him how come he thought that was. He told me because by denying the teenagers the opportunity to learn self control such as no alcohol at all, no dancing, only associating with other sda's,etc.the sda youth aren't taught moderation and self control and go off the deep end when they get a taste of freedom. I then asked my mother the same question and she said because satan trys harder with those he knows the truth, he's already got the others suckered in hell. Go figure. Frankly I'll go with the parole agent on that one. I was actually at my friends house when this p.o. came to do a check. It was a major bust with my sda friends giving guns to the gangs in mexico for drugs. About 30 years ago. Made national news. I was thankful I wasn't at their house when the atf raided them. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 480 Registered: 4-2014 |
Islander, It is such a sad life of total despair and the outcomes are often truly horrific. Simply put, most Adventists and non-Adventists live lives that are based totally on lies. How can this possibly end up well? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 15085 Registered: 12-2003 |
"How can this possibly end well?" Very good question, Res. Colleen |
