| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3394 Registered: 7-2007 |
Adrian; So every Bible translator got the word eternal wrong???? The Holy Spirit Himself is our seal and our guarantee of our inheritance. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." The word eternal is not used in this verse. If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. If believers do not have eternal security then the bottom line is salvation is up to us and not Jesus. If any part of salvation depends on me then Jesus did NOTHING for us....because any part of salvation that is left up to us = no salvation at all. NONE WOULD BE SAVED. Question: "If our salvation is eternally secure, why does the Bible warn so strongly against apostasy?" Answer: The Bible teaches that everyone who is born again by the power of the Holy Spirit is saved forever. We receive the gift of eternal life (John 10:28), not temporary life. Someone who is born again (John 3:3) cannot be “unborn.” After being adopted into God’s family (Romans 8:15), we will not be kicked out. When God starts a work, He finishes it (Philippians 1:6). So, the child of God—the believer in Jesus Christ—is eternally secure in his salvation. However, the Bible also contains some strong warnings against apostasy. These warnings have led some to doubt the doctrine of eternal security. After all, if we cannot lose our salvation, why are we warned against falling away from the Lord? This is a good question. First, we must understand what is meant by “apostasy.” An apostate is someone who abandons his religious faith. It is clear from the Bible that apostates are people who made professions of faith in Jesus Christ but never genuinely received Him as Savior. They were pretend believers. Those who turn away from Christ never really trusted Him to begin with, as 1 John 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” Those who apostatize are simply demonstrating that they are not true believers, and they never were. The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares (Matthew 13:24–30) provides a simple illustration of apostasy. In the same field were growing wheat and “false wheat” (tares or weeds). At first, the difference between the two types of plants was undetectable, but as time went on, the weeds were seen for what they were. In the same way, in any given church today, there may be true, born-again believers side by side with pretenders—those who enjoy the messages, the music, and the fellowship but have never repented of their sins and accepted Christ by faith. To any human observer, the true believer and the pretender look identical. Only God can see the heart. Matthew 13:1–9 (the Parable of the Sower) is another illustration of apostasy in action. The Bible’s warnings against apostasy exist because there are two types of religious people: believers and unbelievers. In any church there are those who truly know Christ and those who are going through the motions. Wearing the label “Christian” does not guarantee a change of heart. It is possible to hear the Word, and even agree with its truth, without taking it to heart. It is possible to attend church, serve in a ministry, and call yourself a Christian—and still be unsaved (Matthew 7:21–23). As the prophet said, “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me” (Isaiah 29:13; cf. Mark 7:6). God warns the pretender who sits in the pew and hears the gospel Sunday after Sunday that he is playing with fire. Eventually, a pretender will apostatize—he will “fall away” from the faith he once professed—if he does not repent. Like the tares among the wheat, his true nature will be manifest. The passages warning against apostasy serve two primary purposes. First, they exhort everyone to be sure of their salvation. One’s eternal destiny is not a trifling matter. Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13:5 to examine ourselves to see whether we are “in the faith.” One test of true faith is love for others (1 John 4:7–8). Another is good works. Anyone can claim to be a Christian, but those who are truly saved will bear “fruit.” A true Christian will show, through words, actions, and doctrine, that he follows the Lord. Christians bear fruit in varying degrees based on their level of obedience and their spiritual gifts, but all Christians bear fruit as the Spirit produces it in them (Galatians 5:22–23). Just as true followers of Jesus Christ will be able to see evidence of their salvation (see 1 John 4:13), apostates will eventually be made known by their fruit (Matthew 7:16–20) or lack thereof (John 15:2). The second purpose for the Bible’s warnings against apostasy is to equip the church to identify apostates. They can be known by their rejection of Christ, acceptance of heresy, and carnal nature (2 Peter 2:1–3). The biblical warnings against apostasy, therefore, are warnings to those who are under the umbrella of “faith” without ever having truly exercised faith. Scriptures such as Hebrews 6:4–6 and Hebrews 10:26–29 are warnings to “pretend” believers that they need to examine themselves before it’s too late. If they are considering apostatizing, they are not truly saved. Matthew 7:22–23 indicates that “pretend believers” whom the Lord rejects on Judgment Day are rejected not because they “lost faith” but because the Lord never knew them. They never had a relationship with Him. There are many people who love religion for religion’s sake and are willing to identify themselves with Jesus and the church. Who wouldn’t want eternal life and blessing? However, Jesus warns us to “count the cost” of discipleship (Luke 9:23–26; 14:25–33). True believers have counted the cost and made the commitment; apostates fail to do so. Apostates had a profession of faith at one time but not the possession of faith. Their mouths spoke something other than what their hearts believed. Apostasy is not loss of salvation but evidence of past pretension. Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html#ixzz33iIxTQGq | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2126 Registered: 7-2004  |
Colleen, You have explained, far better than I, the point I have been trying to make. If the warnings aren't "real" warnings, then the Bible becomes a book of half-truths. Just like if the promises aren't "real" promises. The "explanation" pasted by Asurprise also robs believers of assurance, just as certainly as accepting that the warnings are real. No one can ever be sure that they aren't one of these "pretend" believers she talks a bouts, instead of a "real believer". So even though a person may believe that they are saved, they really aren't and will eventually fall away. There is no assurance in that doctrine of assurance. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 1035 Registered: 7-2008  |
Question.... If we have the right to accept Christ as savior...shouldn't we also have the right or freedom to walk away from that free gift of salvation? It is true scripture teaches that no one can snatch us away from the hands of Christ. But where in scripture does it teach that I cant of my free choosing "walk away" from His hands and return to my former condition. I see no contradiction in scripture at all on this topic. As believers we have a responsibility to "abide in Christ"...Don't we? Somewhere in the bible the question is posed..."how can we neglect so great a salvation( I think)... Can we surrender to Christ and "have it our way and do as we please ", and be assured of our salvation? ....Just asking a question. Enjoy your day!! .....Animal | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2127 Registered: 7-2004 |
Let's look at some additional verses on this subject:
This says that some will "depart" from the faith, it does not say, as some have suggested, that some will show that they never had true faith.
This says that these two people had faith only to make a shipwreck of their faith.
There is a condition (holding fast) to being saved by receiving the Gospel.
I could go on, there are plenty more passages about falling away. What strikes me in these passages is that none of these passages describes anything of a "false faith". The "false faith" concept appears, at least to my simple reading of the passages, to be a construct added by people trying to make the Bible fit their theology. Like Colleen, I don't understand how both the promises and the warnings are both 100% true. But I believe that they both are. I will not sweep one of these two under the rug because it is inconvenient. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 1037 Registered: 7-2008 |
".....people trying to make the Bible fit their theology. " Awesome statement Ric!!! Isnt that what Adventism has been doing all these many years? ....Makes you think. ...Animal | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2012 |
This is my understanding of Galatians 5:4 in relation to the question whether or not a true Christian can lose his salvation. Note that this verse does not say they had fallen out of grace, but from grace. To lose one's salvation, one would have to move out of grace, which is God's unmerited favor directed towards people. Those being spoken here have returned to the law for their justification. The phrase "fallen from grace" refers to those who tried to mix faith and works. Grace simply is not grace if works is mixed in with it (Romans 11:6). They were never justified because they failed to understand what grace means and instead trusted in the deeds of the law for their salvation. This being the case, they were still under the curse of the law (Galatians 3:10). Once God has established a relationship with a person that is based on His grace, that person cannot undo it, for he did nothing to merit it in the first place. Another view way of looking at this text is this. To fall from grace is to fall from favor. While some extend this fall from favor to loss of salvation, it is not at all necessary from the context. The severing is simply the disruption of fellowship and the nullifying of the power of Christ in their lives. To return to the law is to return to a system of righteous requirements with no power to meet them. When Paul says that "Christ shall profit you nothing" he is again speaking not of salvation, but of the assistance we receive when we rely on Him. This may be a variation on the theme of walking after the Spirit vs. walking after the flesh. To return to works is to rely on the flesh which is doomed to failure, since there is no way to please God when we operate in the flesh. Regardless of which of the two views above one considers, the attempt to get loss of salvation from this passage is to force a meaning on it that contradicts the very words of Jesus regarding the security of those whom God has given to Him (John 6:39). It also makes Paul contradict his own inspired declaration that nothing can separate us from the love of God. (Romans 8:37-39) If what Ric_b says is true, then we better work very hard to keep ourselves saved, because Jesus is simply not capable of fulfilling the Father's will by keeping His own from being lost. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 1038 Registered: 7-2008 |
"Once God has established a relationship with a person that is based on His grace, that person cannot undo it, for he did nothing to merit it in the first place" Sorry to disagree..... Relationships can be broken... God will never force anyone to stay in a relationship against their will or desire. Otherwise the relationship isn't based on love by both parties. God wants our love, not a forced relationship. Works doesn't save the person..I agree!! But sin can break a relationship based on love and trust. ASk any recent divorced person if that isn't true. Can a believer have assurance of salvation?... Sure they can.!! Scripture clearly states that "he who has the Son has life...he who has not the Son has not life".. Can a person "let go" of Christ and walk away? Sure they can..Nowhere does scripture state that they cant walk away. ************************** The above is my opinion... Could my opinions be wrong? ...sure they can. But.... I hope you still luv the Animal. ...Animal | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2012 |
So if I follow the implications of your opinion, Jesus' ability to fulfill His Father's will can be negated by a believer's failure to maintain the relationship with God and not walk away. How hard must the believer work and what are the things he has to do to maintain the relationship with Christ in order to hopefully be saved? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3395 Registered: 7-2007 |
Amen, Taluur!!!  | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 1039 Registered: 7-2008 |
Taluur...What do you mean by"..and not walk away"? Relations are two-way...not one-way. The love of God allows one to walk away from God. If not, then the relationship is one of force and not free love. Relationships DO have to be maintained !! If not, how can you call it a relationship? God doesn't want robots. He wants free will loving relationships with His children. If God forces me to stay in a relationship that I want to leave...How is that a love relationship? How much work and commitment do couples carry out to make their marriage a successful one? BOTH have to engage willingly together to make the marriage"work". You just cant have a one-sided relationship. Those who try end up divorced..and that is a fact one cant deny. God allows the believer to"walk away".( the prodigal son). Some might return to God later like he did...Some might not. ....Animal | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 776 Registered: 2-2003  |
Animal, I agree, Asuprise, Bible translators getting things wrong would not be without precedent. For instance, Jerome translated the Greek Scriptures into Latin in the early 5th century. He rendered the Greek monogenés hyios (e.g. John 3:16) into Latin as Filius unigentus. The Latin "only-begotten" came over into many modern versions, but the Greek means one and only, unique, one of a kind. He got it wrong. There is something to be considered in this controversy. The modern understanding of eternal security/once saved always saved is a very recent doctrine. Basically, no-one in church history believed this before the 19th century and it only became widely accepted in the 20th. Calvinism accepted "perseverance of the saints" in the 16th c., but that is not the same as OSAS, and it can only be traced back to Augusine anyway (4th c.) who took this over from Manichaeism, not the Scriptures. It seems rather strange to me that if a doctrine is really Biblical, how come no-one spotted it for eighteen hundred years? Just a thought, Adrian | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3396 Registered: 7-2007 |
Doc, what about this verse? "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake." 1st John 2:12 By the time the believers received John's letter, were their sins forgiven or not? And which sins? All of them or not? (And if their sins were forgiven, wouldn't that mean they were saved?) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2128 Registered: 7-2004 |
Excuse me, but Rick didn't say "fallen from Grace...severed from Christ....depart from the faith...shipwreck their faith....saved if you hold fast". Rick only quoted inconvenient Scriptures. Part of the problem here is setting up a false dichotomy. The choice has never been, in my mind, between working very hard to stay saved and being impossible to be lost. In fact, when we begin to work for our salvation is exactly when we risk falling from grace and being severed from Christ. Let's look at the difference between the 2 views: A person commits their life to Christ and they are very active in the church for a decade, but then they lose interest. Slowly they stop going to church altogether. They no longer pray, they no longer study their Bible, they no longer meet together with other Believers. Eventually they insist that they do not believe in God. According to the OSAS view, even though the person fully believed they were saved during those first 10 years, they in fact never were saved. The reason that they "fell away" is that they never really believed in the first place (even though they were certain that they believed at the time). The result is that if you think you believe you might or might not be saved because only the future will reveal if that belief was real or not. I find no assurance in this view! If, on the other hand, a saved person has the freedom to later reject God then we see this story differently. The person believed in God and was saved. They were an adopted son of God. Over time the person drifted apart from God to the point that they no longer believed. Without faith in God, they are no longer saved and no longer His adopted son. By turning their back on God, the person sought and received emancipation. The result of this view is that the person is secure in their salvation based on their faith. They don't have to be plagued by doubts about whether that faith is real or not. This view, to me, offers far greater assurance than the OSAS explanation. I still can not explain how both the promises and the warnings are 100% true. I can't offer you any logical explanation how none can be plucked from Christ's hand but we can, through our own choice, be severed from Christ and depart from the faith. To me this is similar to the paradox that God is completely responsible for our salvation (I can't take any credit, or having anything to boast about) but at the same time I would be completely responsible for my damnation were I to reject God (The sinner, not God, is responsible for ending up in Hell). | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2129 Registered: 7-2004 |
The book of 1 John also says
Believers have forgiveness of sins, but if one stops believing what happens to that forgiveness? It never struck me before how similar the message in 1 John 1 is the that in Gal 5. Those who are sinners, relying by faith on Christ's righteousness being counted in place of their own have assurance. But those who would rely on their own righteousness, even if they are believers in Christ, are "severed from Christ" and do not have His Word in them. We need to be careful about building theologies on a single verse that ignores the surrounding verses. Most of have the T-shirt for that experience. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3397 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric_b; wouldn't that apply to someone who was a Christian and then was deceived into the Seventh-day Adventist church and then again found the gospel and left the SDA church? They "fell from grace" and "departed the faith" for the duration of the time they were an SDA, so would they be still saved or not? Why would the Bible say "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9) if we cannot say we are saved. I mean, if our salvation is dependent on our staying faithful, then how can we say we're saved? Isn't that what Ellen White said - that we cannot say we're saved, because we might get tempted. And how can we be "sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance," (Ephesians 1:13-14) if He's no guarantee at all? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3398 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric_b; I know of someone who was a Christian, but became an Adventist when he was an adult. Then later he found out that the SDA church was false, so he became a Christian again. Is there any hope for him, since he was "severed from Christ?" Does "severed from Christ" mean that the person is lost? | ||
| Taluur Registered user Username: Taluur Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2012 |
If a person's so-called "free will" is so much stronger than Jesus' ability to fulfill God's will by not losing any that His Father has given to Him, then those who deny eternal security have no genuine hope of eternal life. They will be little different than SDAs who typically have no assurance of salvation because they are busy trying to perform their prescribed works to gain it. If a person is truly born again, he has a relationship with God that can never change. Fellowship may wax and wane at times, but that person is still related to God through the new birth. If I fall out of fellowship with my father, that does not change ever that I am his son. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3399 Registered: 7-2007 |
Amen! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2131 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, you put words in my mouth. I never said that one can not say that they are saved. I said quite the opposite, in the OSAS view, you can never truly know that you have the real kind of faith that will last. Furthermore, I have said that both the promises (like the guarantee and not being snatched from Christ's hand) are 100% true as are the statements of warnings about falling away. I am arguing for treating all of Scripture as 100% true not just the verses that I like. The problem with your view, Taluur, is that a person can never know that they have a truly born again relationship. Other people have been completely convinced that they were born again only to conclude years later that they did not believe in God. Can a person who denies God be saved just because at one point in their life they expressed belief? (Message edited by ric_b on June 05, 2014) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2132 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise and Taluur, I would appreciate one of you actually addressing the issues and examples that I have raised. Please address what kind of assurance the person in the example I presented earlier would have had when they professed belief?
Are you arguing that they are still saved despite their later rejection of God (because even the OSAS theologians do not teach this, instead they claim that the person's faith was never true)? Or would you be forced to conclude that this person has a false assurance? They believed they were saved when they truly weren't? |
