| Author | Message | ||
| Angel9 Registered user Username: Angel9 Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2013 |
Just thought I'd post this for transitioning Adventists who are searching for a new church and may want to check out this church. No quoting of Ellen White. It's a 7th day Baptist church which is in Kingman, AZ and they will be starting a new church in the Phoenix area. Here's their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kingdom-of-God/485301678182261 And you can see their sermons here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9yT5RX85ss They read from the Bible and encourage daily Bible reading. And they seem to be more of an independent church without the control of a governing body like the SDA church. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2087 Registered: 7-2004  |
While we are free to worship any day that we want, including the Sabbath day, I think it is crucial for the spiritual healing and growth of transitioning and former SDAs to exercise the courage and freedom to step outside of Sabbath church attendance. I believe that there are shackles related to our SDA indoctrination that can not be broken until we make this step. At the same time, I recognize that not everyone is ready to make that step. Or you may be in a family where only one person is ready for that step. So I don't want to sound like I am discouraging the step of moving from SDAism to a more Biblically grounded Sabbath observing church. I am only trying to express the concern that exists when the transition stops at this point. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2995 Registered: 5-2007  |
I have a cousin (first cousin of my mother’s) Donald E. Mote, who was an early ‘former’ Adventist and inherited the work of E. S. Ballenger in Riverside, CA. They published, among other things, a pamphlet named ‘The Gathering Call’ which we received in our home for many years starting way back when I was still an SDA. They were mainly opposed to the Sanctuary doctrine and the authority of Ellen G. White. In later years when I had gained an evangelical understanding of Scripture it became clear my cousin never had a good understanding of the Sabbath issue and consequently waffled all over the place concerning his own salvation. He wrote my grandmother’s (she was his aunt) biography for her funeral where he expressed these doubts and seemed to center on the need to ‘keep’ the Sabbath. For some reason the Adventist Heritage Center purchased all their library and research in 1996 but were utterly shocked at how unorganized his office and records were. I’ve been in his home and office and yes my cousin certainly didn’t arrange things for other to rummage through them. Yes, even for former Adventist the question of the Sabbath can remain an issue. PS While there he gave me our family bible that goes back over a hundred years with births, deaths and marriages of our family. Fearless Phil | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2088 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't want to make over-generalizations. One issue is that I have observed is that Sabbath keeping can be an insurance policy, just in case those SDAs were right after all. It is hedging your bets. If you can worship any day of the week, then you can worship on Sabbath (or Sunday). But if the Sabbath command remains, then you must worship on Sabbath. Either way, Sabbath is safe for worship. But other days, particularly the "dreaded" Sunday, may not be safe. The problem is that taking the "safe bet" isn't stepping out in faith. As long as you are living in such a way that you are trying to cover all the bases just in case, you are not experiencing assurance of salvation. You might affirm that your salvation is assured, but until you rest from your works (keeping your bases covered) you can not actually experience it. For the person who never lived with the idea that the Sabbath is the final test, the proof of your true faith, even the Seal of God, there is not the same baggage (bondage) associated with the Sabbath. Attending a non-SDA, Sabbatarian church is a means of have one foot in SDAism and one foot outside. If that is associated with the steps of walking away, I say "outstanding". But if it is, or becomes, a means of staying in both camps, it will surely stunt the person's spiritual growth. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2996 Registered: 5-2007 |
Rick, In mentioning my cousin it is my intention to affirm your point concerning the issue of worshiping in a Sabbath observing church. My cousin wrote the bio of grandmother in 1990. He himself passed away in 2008. Here is what he wrote that made me wonder:
Fearless Phil | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2997 Registered: 5-2007 |
I should have mentioned Cousin Donald’s apparent lack of assurance of his own salvation appears to me to have been written within the context of his frequent mentioning of his continued "Sabbath Keeping" in a variety of places including the Seventh Day Baptist and The World Wide Church of God. With "one foot in and one foot out" he seemed to have been in torment throughout his life which compelled him to wonder if there is such a thing as a future life. Fearless Phil | ||
| Angel9 Registered user Username: Angel9 Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2013 |
With all due respect, Ric_b, I feel you are making generalizations. How do you know what everyone believes, who chooses to go to church on Saturday? What if the person truly does not believe it has to do with salvation, believes that it's fine for people to attend churches on Sunday... but they prefer to worship on Saturday because the church has a good pastor who teaches from the Bible? And they enjoy it as a day of rest, not as a day of SDA rules? Personally, I think it's a blessing if transitioning SDAs can find a church that teaches the Bible without any Ellen White - no matter what day they worship on. Perhaps remember Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 421 Registered: 9-2011  |
Just to weigh in here, I concur with Ric 100%. All or nothing is my way of being sure. I see Ric making an 'if, then' hypothesis while I perceive Angel9 doing the same. I think Colleen put it well one time when she described it as keeping a 'golden calf' when you can't leave the Sabbath without doubting your salvation. Adventism is such a smorgasbord of believers anyway so why continue to be half baked? Charles | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2090 Registered: 7-2004 |
Angel9, please read what I said again and look closely at the words that I chose. I said "it can be" for a very specific reason, because I did not want to overgeneralize. Had I wished to convey that it was always the case, I would have chosen words that said just that. The fact that attending a Sabbath observing church is a means of keeping one foot in both camps is not saying that all who do this are keeping one foot in both camps. I am not trying to pass judgment on any person's situation, I am only trying to address a hazard that exists for Former SDAs when they continue to attend Sabbath observing churches. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14698 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree with you, Rick. "Former Adventists" who still want to worship on Sabbath do retain a deep attachment to it that sometimes resists logic or explanation. The attachment is at a visceral level, and it's programmed in before one has language. It's just part of "reality". Moreover, what Rick said is true: the inability to actually "give up" Sabbath has an element of fear: WHAT IF it's true, that God requires the seventh day? We cannot grow up with the message that the Sabbath is the mark of the saved, the seal of God, the "thing" that sets us apart from the mark of the beast—not to mention with the message that going to church on Sunday IS the mark of the beast—and not have that fear. For people who have never had the Sabbath as part of their "salvation package", the day is irrelevant and simply a matter of convenience and choice. For those of us who DID believe, however, that the Sabbath was our mark of obeying God and trusting Him, the day became an idol. I know—as an SDA I would NEVER have thought the Sabbath was an idol. But it was. I believed it was holy and sacred. I believed it was an act of worship required by God. I believed that to give it up would risk my salvation. Anything that central to one's understanding of God and worship is an idol. It demands our attention, obedience, reverence, and care. In order to know that our salvation depends upon NOTHING except Jesus alone and our trust in His blood and resurrection, we have to give up the mark of the false gospel that we once believed. We have to surrender the sacred object that demanded our loyalty. In reality, only God is holy. Only God an command our obedience and loyalty. But Sabbath commanded our loyalty and reverence. It became an eternal sacred thing that ranked in our worship right up there with God. We have to be willing to give up our loyalty and reverence for the symbol of our false worship in order to know that the day makes no difference. We have a divided heart if we continue to worship on Sabbath because we still act out of the suspicion it MIGHT matter. That kind of hanging-on is not trusting in Jesus. Just for the record, Seventh Day Baptist churches are not all good Christian churches that just happen to worship on Sabbath. The SDB church in Riverside, for example, has many expatriated Adventists who don't adhere to Adventist doctrines but believe in the Sabbath. One of their pastors, in fact, is an Adventist who no longer wants to preach in the SDA church. Even the SDB's who are not former Adventists are bound to the decalogue. They believe it is binding on Christians and believe the Sabbath is God's requirement. There is a reason it is called the Seventh Day Baptist church: they believe the seventh day is the Sabbath of God. They are not a new covenant denomination; they are bound to the law. To be sure, they don't believe in an IJ or an incomplete atonement...yet they do cling to observing the decalogue. They live in that confusing place of believing Jesus completed His atonement, yet also believing they are under the Old Covenant law. Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2999 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, I find it interesting that you mentioned the Riverside SDB Church as Riverside was where my Cousin Donald Mote lived and that would have been where he worshiped which proves (including the things he wrote) that he still considered Sabbath Keeping as important, probably in the way you just described. This in turn makes me wonder about Albion or Edward Ballinger or even their father, John Fox Ballinger as my cousin was mentored by Edward Ballinger who also lived in Riverside. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on January 21, 2014) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3282 Registered: 7-2007 |
Before I could stop "keeping" the Sabbath day, I had to know that there is a New Covenant in place that Jesus brought in by His death [Hebrews 9:15-17] and that the Old one is obsolete [Hebrews 8:13], and I had to realize that the old Sabbath isn't part of the New Covenant before I could stop "keeping" the Sabbath. When I found out that the Adventist church is baloney though, I dropped it like the heavy box of rocks that it is! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14702 Registered: 12-2003 |
Phil, very interesting. It is possible that they may have been Sabbatarian. You have some very interesting family connections and family history. I always enjoy your posts! Colleen | ||
| Angel9 Registered user Username: Angel9 Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2013 |
Colleen, can you give me names of the pastors at Riverside who were SDAs? Also, you said: "Even the SDB's who are not former Adventists are bound to the decalogue. They believe it is binding on Christians and believe the Sabbath is God's requirement." This is an unfair generalization, and the pastor in Arizona has stated clearly that the Sabbath is not necessary for salvation. This church accepts other churches, no matter what day they worship on. And they don't believe they are the remnant, and that everyone else is wrong. Personally, I think this is a good thing and gives questioning SDAs an option to attend a church that teaches the Bible without any EGW doctrines. Evidently, you all clearly have a different perspective and I'm not going to debate on this, just respectfully disagree. | ||
| Leifl Registered user Username: Leifl Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2014 |
We started at an SDB church. Their take on the Sabbath issue was much more relaxed than SDA - no "mark of the beast/seal of God" baggage and they would enjoy worship with their friends and family in "Sunday" churches. It was a good stepping stone for us. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14746 Registered: 12-2003 |
Angel9, I just saw this. I can't remember the names of the pastors at the Riverside church because I didn't attend. We had a couple, however, who have since moved who used to attend FAF. They were a professional couple associated with Loma Linda, and they attended the Riverside SDB church before they fully left Adventism. It was they who told us of the one pastor (or was it a teaching elder? I can't remember for sure...) who had an Adventist background, and that knowledge came out of a personal meeting they had with him. I also know that the Riverside SDB Church is where Desmond Ford used to hold meetings when he came to Southern California when he was headquartered in Northern California. Desmond, btw, remained Adventist until about four years ago when he officially "left" because he applied for a job at a Baptist seminary in Australia. He did not receive the position, but I was told by one of his staff that he had finally resigned his SDA membership. Nevertheless, he has spoken as a Sabbath defender for the Adventist organization within the past ten years. Also, we sat with a couple from the Riverside SDB church at a wedding reception a few years ago. We talked about Adventism with them, and they were definitely not on the SDA "page", but they definitely do believe the decalogue is for Christians (as do many Christians, by the way...and Baptists often teach the Ten Commandments are for Christians.) The fact that they do not believe Sabbath is necessary for salvation does not mean they do not believe the Ten Commandments are binding. And, as Leifl said, their perspective on Sabbath is not burdened with "mark of the beast" theology. Adventists going to an SDB church over the long haul, though, would continue to bump into the more subtle but still powerful attachment to the law, and Adventists could move into leadership at an SDB church, as has been the case at the Riverside SDB Church, without ever unpacking their underlying attachments to Sabbath. I did watch the video of the pastor at the new SDB church to which you linked, Angel9. I agree, he is not coming from an Adventist perspective. Nevertheless, his Sabbath explanations would be comfortable for those with Adventist backgrounds. And yes...this can be a good place to start. I believe, though, that a person who persists in unpacking his SDA worldview and in learning the new covenant would have to make yet another decision about the SDB church since Sabbath originally held a significant place in his understanding of atonement. For an Adventist, Sabbath was an idol; it is not necessarily an idol for a person without and SDA background. And the couple I knew who used to attend the SDB church said that there was a lack of good Bible teaching and an over riding "heaviness" that came from not having a clear understanding the law. Plus--that pastor who had an SDA background in the back of his head definitely had theological issues which he wouldn't have been able to address well with his congregation. But as a stepping stone...I can see the value in that. Colleen |
