| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14224 Registered: 12-2003  |
Julius Nam wrote the following in an article in Spectrum magazine in 2008. Nam is on the faculty at LLU and is a "progressive" Adventist, very liberal in his theology. This quote is a fairly current confirmation of Adventism's denial of "spirit". We all KNOW Adventists deny the human spirit, but when we talk with Adventists, they argue and say the do believe we have spirits. Of course, these arguments are disingenuous and designed to confuse and deceive. Here is a very clear statement of what Adventists really believe about the physical nature of reality and of God:
Colleen | ||
| Eternal_joy Registered user Username: Eternal_joy Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2012 |
This is so true. I am reminded of a conversation I had with my mother about how the Bible teaches that God is spirit. She said that God could not be spirit in an immaterial sense because that would mean that He "isn't real." So, in an Adventist's mind, unless it has a physical substance, it is not real. It is a deception. It is even Satanic. They call what is good evil, and what is evil good.  | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 285 Registered: 4-2012 |
I have had elderly SDA loved ones tell me if a person falls overboard and gets ate by a shark that person can't be resurrected. Want to know why ? Well, i asked the kinfolk and found out it's because there won't be anything left of the dead person for God to put back together. Gag me with a spoon! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14232 Registered: 12-2003 |
That's really insightful, Eternal_Joy. You are right. And yes, Punababe, that about sums it up...there's nothing of them left. They've become shark flesh, and how could God resurrect a human out of shark flesh? (Especially when the shark is likely also dead and consumed by underwater scavengers...) Colleen | ||
| Vjs Registered user Username: Vjs Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2011 |
I have a question on what is left of a person when eaten by a shark? Does that mean that those who were burned at the stake will not be resurrected either? Or those who are cremated and the ashes put in the ocean? I thought that SDAs believed that there is a record of everyone and at the resurrection God uses the record to make everyone alive again, and those who do not have a body gets a new one? Or do I have the belief mixed with another religion? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14235 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Vjs, you are right. Adventists do believe that God has a memory of everyone, so He'll re-create them. They don't actually believe in resurrection, although they call it "resurrection". They believe in "re-creation" because they believe that a person ceases to exist after death. Their bodies decay (or are digested by other animals or burned with fire), so what matters is God's memory. He recreates them at the resurrection. Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2823 Registered: 5-2007  |
Logically if you are an Adventist you have to believe God is going to recreate you out of nothing. However, when the Apostle Paul speaks of ‘being with the Lord’ that isn’t none-existent existence. Clearly there is more to being created ‘in the image of God’ than our physical body. Put another way, what died on the day Adam and Eve sinned? Phil | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 595 Registered: 2-2010 |
"So, in an Adventist's mind, unless it has a physical substance, it is not real. It is a deception. It is even Satanic." Eternal_Joy, the question that follows then is whether or not evil is real then. Clearly the demons Jesus cast out of physical man were not visible. So based on your mothers logic, that wasn't real and Jesus was a fraud. | ||
| Katarain Registered user Username: Katarain Post Number: 295 Registered: 1-2012 |
My mother warned me that it is spiritualism (satanic) when I told her I believe we have a spirit. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14237 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, they teach that believing we have spirits is related to spiritualism. They have no idea that they predispose their members to be fascinated with spirits. Somehow this spiritless teaching makes them more aware and more fearful and more fixated on demons than the biblical teaching ever would do. It's a little like "Don't think abut the pink elephant..." Colleen | ||
| Eternal_joy Registered user Username: Eternal_joy Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2012 |
I remember always being fascinated with the occult. I would read Adventist mission story books as a kid that were filled with stories of witch doctors, demon-worshiping tribes, and all their supernatural experiences. It was all way more interesting to me than they should have been. We also read Roger Morneau's book "A Trip Into the Supernatural," for family worship once. Can you believe that? It's craziness. When my atheist brother found out that I know believe we as humans have spirits that are more than breath, he came back at me with Adventist arguments, even though he is an atheist. And my family members have applauded his atheist explanations for why humans have no spirit. And yet I am the one who is deceived by a Satanic delusion, when they are agreeing with an atheist! Going back to the resurrection discussion, our pastor said this Sunday that believing that the resurrection is a recreation is basically saying that Satan wins round 1. No, the Bible is clear that THIS body will be resurrected because God is going to redeem all of creation. This also applies to the New Earth. I'm still trying to sort this out, because, of course, we were taught that the New Earth is also a recreation because this earth is annihilated in the lake of fire. But this would again be attributing a victory to Satan. God is going to redeem this earth, not re-create it. But this concept is still something that I am trying to process, so I'm not sure if I even articulated it correctly. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 606 Registered: 2-2010 |
A couple years ago during an FAF weekend Mark Martin and his wife, Leslie, gave a break out session on the rapture. This of course covered much of Revelation. When they talked about the greek word used when describing the "new" earth, they said it was a word that indicated "another earth" rather than a renovated earth. They described it kind of like this; instead of taking your 2000 F150 and trading it in for a 2013 F150, you trade it in and get a mustang. It's still a vehicle, but it's different, it is not of the same. The idea I was left with is that the new earth won't be this earth. But remember, I am quoting people, not scripture, and this conversation is two years old. So I may have all this wrong, and even if I don't it's not a point with a lot of weight because I don't have the scripture to explain it. It's just something I am recalling as one persons point of view. What you are saying, Eternal_joy makes a lot of sense. | ||
| Eternal_joy Registered user Username: Eternal_joy Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2012 |
What I said could definitely be wrong F2D. I'm willing to explore it! | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 728 Registered: 2-2003  |
The Greek word for new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21:1 is kainos, which is the same word as describes the new covenant in Luke 22:20 and Hebrews 8:8. So it would describe something new and different, not just renewed. Adrian | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 286 Registered: 4-2012 |
Vjs, i asked that question to the SDA kin. Cremation is excluded from the forever none existence of The deceased because the passage says "dust to dust, ashes to ashes ".So, i figure regular burial and cremation leaves enough left over remains for God to do some knitting. | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 287 Registered: 4-2012 |
Oh, i also asked this SDA loved one to explain The Holy Spirit. Well, here's the answer on that. Only God is holy. Therefore only Gods spirit is holy. We will forever be in the presence of the Holy Spirit after the melenium when we arever with God in His presence. Of | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14247 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks for the Greek confirmation, Adrian! Colleen | ||
| Eternal_joy Registered user Username: Eternal_joy Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2012 |
Thanks for that, Adrian! I'm going to have to talk to my pastor about this; maybe I misunderstood him. | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 296 Registered: 5-2011  |
I wish I knew Greek. I could still learn, so I can find out what the NT REALLY says even better. I do agree that SDAs have made such a big deal about the physical. I grew tired of the obsession with health and dress. I do think that Christians shouldn't spend too much time and money on dress, but they make such a big deal out of it. They act like it has something to do with salvation. The ban on jewelry for its students and workers makes no sense at all. The push of vegetarianism is ridiculous because that doesn't make anyone holier. I just find it all to be similar to Earth-based religions. It is similar to Buddhism and Hinduism. Eat a good diet, live a simple life, and you will have a better reward in the afterlife. I have spent a lot of time among Buddhist cultures and it is futile. So much materialism has came about. We, in our human nature, can't become perfect. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14264 Registered: 12-2003 |
Butterfly, you are right. Adventism really does have a lot in common with Earth-based religions. It is married to physical improvement as a means of spiritual awareness. This notion is not only NOT in the Bible, but the Bible actually speaks against the idea that physical discipline and avoidance of foods is spiritually helpful. Colossians 2 and 1 Timothy 4 are very clear that rules for eating, drinking, and harsh treatment of the body are of no benefit to us at all spiritually. In fact, these rules are doctrines of demons. Adventism shares MUCH with new-age spirituality that focusses on bringing the mind into submission, improving the body, and finding that spark of God-presence as we unclutter our minds and bodies of the clogging effects of meat and dairy. The biblical gospel is very different. Jesus IS the truth, and when we know Him, we are made new. If diet and exercise were important for spiritual growth, the suffering and persecuted church would be unable to grow in the Lord. The chronically ill and wounded would be unable to thrive in the Lord. Jesus is all we need. The pursuit of spiritual disciplines is not biblical. In fact, it's just another form of works. Colleen | ||
| Mountaingirl Registered user Username: Mountaingirl Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2013 |
Punababe808 -- LOL....yes I remember this "thought" as a child depending on how one died they could not be put back together again. Other ones are burning and cremation. | ||
| Mountaingirl Registered user Username: Mountaingirl Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2013 |
Philharris - It just occurred to me a couple days ago that what died on the day Adam and Eve sinned was their spirit connection with God. I may not have the terminology correct but I think I have the idea. In SDA teaching there is no mention of a disconnect of ones spirit with God. Knowing what I know today about ones "spirit" make the "born again" make sense. I recall the SDA teaching that went something like - without access to the tree of life their bodies slowly started dying and then after the flood God change the time frame that man can live. | ||
| Mountaingirl Registered user Username: Mountaingirl Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2013 |
Who puts out the magazine "Spectrum"? Is this and Adventist publication? If so I was not familiar with it but if it is not an Adventist publication then I will read more on the web. thanks | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 333 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mountaingirl... Here is the statement from the "Spectrum" website - the electronic version of the actual magazine..... Our goal is to foster community through conversation. This website is the online companion to SPECTRUM, a journal established to encourage Seventh-day Adventist participation in the discussion of contemporary issues from a Christian viewpoint, to look without prejudice at all sides of a subject, to evaluate the merits of diverse views, and to foster intellectual and cultural growth. It is sponsored by the Association of Adventist Forums.... started out of Loma Linda University. It continues to host conferences in various SDA populated locations around the USA.. | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 334 Registered: 10-2003 |
HA!! just noticed that my last post was 'half' the mark of the beast.....  |
