| Author | Message | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 905 Registered: 8-2008 |
Ellen White taught that God has a physical body like man's. Borrowing from a Members Only thread: I recently came across an excellent blog post by a Jewish Rabbi that touches on this idea: Two Medieval Jewish Thinkers on the "Image" of God. The Rabbi quotes theologian D. Clines: What interested me about all of this is simply that Jewish and Christian theologians have known and taught for centuries that God is incorporeal. Also, note what the author says about Maimonides: I think this hit a chord with me because that is what SDAism does, in fact what all cults do: Depart from the God who has revealed Himself in Scripture, and instead attach His name to a deity of their own imaginings. It also struck me as one of the reasons that doctrine and theology matter, and why we cannot agree with SDA theologians when they teach, for instance, that Yahweh of the Bible and Allah of the Koran are the same. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13264 Registered: 12-2003  |
Very good point, bskillet. Cults all redefine God. Absolutely. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7535 Registered: 9-2006  |
well...if the case is as you say,"Depart from the God who has revealed Himself in Scripture, and instead attach His name to a deity of their own imaginings." Then isn't it a little dangerous to describe Adventist as our brothers and sisters in Christ who just have a slightly peculiar doctrine? | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 910 Registered: 8-2008 |
They are NOT Christians I totally agree, River. I had that fact decisively proven for me when I made the mistake of attending one of their Christmas services last week (about which I will post later). | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1443 Registered: 7-2004  |
How does one decide who is Christian? If a professed belief in Jesus Christ makes one a Christian then we certainly must conclude that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is counted among the Christians, they even include His name in their church name. Under this definition, the SDA church certainly qualifies as Christian also. If we define Christian as a belief in the Triune God, then we must exclude SDA, LDS, some pentecostals, some non-denominationals (and even more if we insist that a clear affirmation of the historical doctrine of the Trinity is required), and perhaps certain Church of Christ and derivatives (they, like SDAism, were founded by anti-Trinitarians and some pockets retain aspects like SDAism does), But we include EO, RCC, and liberal mainstream churches that have approved ordaining homosexuals. Do we then insist that Christian means belief in the Triune God AND belief in the Gospel being by faith alone, apart from any works, from first to last? At which point the more adamant Calvanists begin insisting that everyone else includes some kind of work, be it baptism (their criticism of Lutherans) or a decision (their criticism of nearly everyone else). How many doctrines in common are required in order to be a brother or sister in Christ? This is why I hesitate to throw around terms like non-Christian and cult. Until you have defined exactly what you mean by the use of the term, it is more rhetoric than information. I prefer to make my case that: SDAism denies the Triune God. SDAism denies salvation by faith alone apart from works from first to last. SDAism denies the Universal Church, viewing themselves as the special Remnant Church that all people are called to join. SDAism believes that it has been given a special task by God to call people out of all the other churches and convert to SDAism. SDAism denies the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture. SDAism has denied the core doctrines that make for the foundation of the Evangelical community and should not be considered "just another Christian church with a few unique teachings and maybe a dab of legalism". The differences run far deeper. I think it is asking the wrong question to ask whether a person can be an SDA and be a Christian. I think it is better to ask, can a Christian understand the teachings of the 28 SDA Fundamental Beliefs and affirm those as true. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7536 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well...ya proved one thing Ric and that is how easy it is to complicate a very simple straight forward question until the question no longer has any meaning or validity. (: I said that in a friendly way, not to get something started. Rhetoric has its place in the English language without follow up with a long doctrinal theses every time you use a word. Here is reason I asked this apparently overly simplified question which apparently contains unfair rhetoric. I have seen countless times 'formers' speak of Adventist like an unruly cousin. The rhetorical use of the word 'Formers'coming from a 'never been' not spoken with a downward inflection, but with a certain fondness developed over long association and deep friendships gained with multiplied blessings. Just being Chrystal clear now and spoken with expected long windedness.  The danger in considering the Adventist (as a general rule) as Christians is that it induces failure to pray for them in a meaningful way. I'll follow that up with another question. Isn't it important that as we attempt to educate Adventist, that we attempt to educate formers as to just how deep this doctrine runs contrary to Christian doctrine? Just how far have we drifted from calling a spade a spade? The Bible has no trouble in calling a spade a spade, Jesus didn't seem to have trouble with it, The apostles didn't seem to have trouble with it, although sometimes you can read in the times he held back and said nothing, a lesson which I seem to have problems learning. Again, just to be crystal clear, I'm not trying to hammer on you Ric, I just don't understand why we can't use common terms with each other without risk of being taken as judgmental, harsh or every word we use as rhetorical nonsense or having to define every word with a long doctrinal theses? River | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1731 Registered: 12-2007  |
I believe I was a "Christian" even as a SDA. I was just a VERY CONFUSED Christian  Maybe I had an advantage in that I was not a born and raised SDA but married into a SDA family at the age of 17 and accepted what I was told was truth by my new family who of course I wanted to accept me and I am sure that was part of it. My birth family were not "church goers" though I could not have wished for a more loving and stable home I was raised to know the difference between right and wrong and to treat people well and even reminded often to say my prayers..... though I dont remember anyone ever praying WITH me. I knew there was a God, but I didnt know much about Him as a child except the belief that He was up in Heaven and I would see Him and all my deceased family members someday when I died. As for SDA's being or not being Christians, I think that has to be considered on an individual basis.... If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you WILL be saved...... right ? I confessed Jesus as Lord as a SDA and believed God raised Him from the dead, BUT I was sure confused with all the church doctrines and the baloney from EGW. I am glad I dont have to worry about being "good enough" anymore I KNOW I am not, nor will I ever be "good enough" But Jesus IS and HE is MORE than "enough" | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7539 Registered: 9-2006 |
Skeeter, let me ask you what Ric asked, How does one decide who is Christian? It is a good question and a very tough question, it has been one of the toughest questions for me for a very long time. I take the question seriously and ask it with fear and respect for God in my heart. Can we say the the organization as a whole is not Christian and judge it by the false doctrine they produce? But an organization is made up of individuals and without each individual propping up the doctrine and propagating the doctrine, the organization cannot exist. My concern is not how we treat SDA's it is more about how we describe the SDA organization to those formers exiting the SDA church. Its not about you or how you thought as an SDA, it about those who are exiting. Am I guilty of asking a rhetorical question? Yes, and it is because of the hundreds of post I have seen in the past that describe the SDA as our Christian brothers, just slightly confused. It took me a long time to come to the knowledge of just how bad this doctrine is. How misleading it is, and how dangerous it is. As Ric said so well, SDAism has denied the core doctrines that make for the foundation of the Evangelical community and should not be considered "just another Christian church with a few unique teachings and maybe a dab of legalism". The differences run far deeper. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9555 Registered: 3-2004  |
There are sdas who are Christians, but I have no idea who they are. Only God knows. One thing I do know is that sda doctrine is not Christian for all the reasons we know and maybe more. Just my humble opinion. Diana | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2631 Registered: 5-2007  |
Diana, Amen! Phil | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1444 Registered: 7-2004 |
River, My only point is that labels lack information. Even in talking with other Christians, Formers run the risk of being dismissed as simply bitter if we rely only on these labels. I am more interested in helping people understand why SDAism is so problematic. I often start by saying that I think SDAism is dangerous because of how effectively theynhave hidden their false teachings in plain sight, and then explain those teachings. If you use the non-Christian terminology as an attention getter followed up with an explanation of the false teachings that you make you conclude that, it may be effective as well. However, sometimes I have seen this lead to people tuning out a Former as vindictive rather than listening to the reasons. It may be very different when a never-been says the same things. I'm certainly not backing dow from calling a spade what it is, but talking about the most effective way of communicating that information. Personally I believe that most formers were Christians before they left SDAism, at least for a time. Without being a Believer, I don't think we would have experienced the dissonance necessary to prompt our departure. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1445 Registered: 7-2004 |
River, One additional comment. I also think it is important as Formers that we apply what we have learned about the problems in SDAism when examining other belief systems as well. If we are critical of SDAism for a false view of the Trinity, we need to extend that same criticism to others who deny or warp the Trinity. SDAism is heretical, but it is not alone in many of these errors. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2304 Registered: 7-2007 |
To get saved, one has to believe in the right Jesus and His finished work. That's all. A little child can get saved even if they don't understand the trinity. The Bible makes it very simple. The right Jesus has to be the Jesus Who finished the Atonement. ALL the cults ADD works. NONE of them believe that Jesus finished the work of Atonement. LDS believe that Jesus was a man who became god, instead of God Who became man. SDAs believe that Jesus was promoted to being equal and that He didn't finish the Atonement. RCC believe that Jesus is a victim who has to be sacrificed over and over again. They also don't believe Jesus finished the Atonement. JW believe that Jesus is a god, but not equal to the Father. I wasn't saved when I was an SDA, because I didn't accept Jesus' finished work. (I was taught it wasn't finished.) Also I believed that my salvation was partly up to me. | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 292 Registered: 2-2008 |
I will add that you have to die to the Law to be married to another, if you haven't died to the law, and are still seeking self justification , or are seeking obedience to the Law to seek God's favor, then Christ will not marry you. Christ does not want to be your boyfriend, or your paid for gigolo, he wants to be your husband. Sorry SDA's, Jesus just isn't that kind of Guy. Chris | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1446 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, Did you leave SDAism without having understood and accepted Christ's finished work for you? Or was there a time, even if it was only days or weeks, where you believed the Gospel while you were still an SDA. If you didn't accept that, why on earth did you leave? If you have to believe in the "right" Jesus, doesn't that include the Jesus of the Trinity rather than any other Jesus? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2306 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric_b; as soon as I learned that Jesus finished the work, (and learned in the process that Ellen White was a false prophet), I was saved. I didn't have a period of cognitive dissonance because it took a miracle and someone's fasting and prayer to get me out. Understanding that a NEW covenant had begun when Jesus died - Hebrews 9:15-16 - showed me that the SDA church was wrong. And yes, the "right" Jesus is the Jesus of the Trinity, but understanding that isn't a requirement of salvation. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 291 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Ric_b~ I really relate to the statement you wrote in your post # 1444~ "Personally I believe that most formers were Christians before they left SDAism, at least for a time. Without being a Believer, I don't think we would have experienced the dissonance necessary to prompt our departure." This explains much of my journey out of adventism. I really appreciate your contributions here on the Forum~ ~mj~ | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7540 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: River, One additional comment. I also think it is important as Formers that we apply what we have learned about the problems in SDAism when examining other belief systems as well. If we are critical of SDAism for a false view of the Trinity, we need to extend that same criticism to others who deny or warp the Trinity. SDAism is heretical, but it is not alone in many of these errors. I agree Ric and I amend that with a word of caution. Formers know Adventism from the inside out, whereas, unless one takes the trouble to study out other Doctrines equally as thoroughly, one might come away with a rather skewed view of the doctrine in question. Not that you yourself need that caution, but I think many do. To explain further my rhetorical question, I think it was Colleen who said, "We need to own it." I think that is true, not saying that in a holier then thou attitude either, I got plenty meself I need to own, but I think owning it assist in quicker growth out of the system. IMHO you understand. River P.S. I also agree that labels can lack information unless the one spoken too knows the back ground of the product. (Message edited by river on January 01, 2012) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1448 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, I guess then you are one of the rare people who left SDAism the very hour that they realized the errors. My apologies for assuming otherwise. I must ask though, why you contend that it is critical to know the right Jesus in regards to having finished the work of the atonement but not critical to know the right Jesus regarding the Trinity? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2309 Registered: 7-2007 |
The right Jesus is a member of the trinity, but it's not neccessary for a person to know that's He's a member of the trinity, in order to get saved. All a child knows is that Jesus died for my sins and that there's nothing I can do to save myself. You have to know that: 1. I can't save myself. 2. I need a Savior and Jesus is the Savior. 3. Trust that what He did is enough. The SDAs, Roman Catholics, Muslims, and the other cult don't believe that what He did is enough. They ALL have to ADD something. All the cults believe that the Atonement wasn't finished at the cross; which denies what Jesus said: "It is finished." They have a "Jesus" who couldn't do it all. SDAs have a "Jesus" who is an "investigator" and who needs help from the believer in overcoming his own sins. Roman Catholics have a "Jesus" who has to be continually sacrificed at every mass in order for them to be saved. That's a false Jesus. Since people keep sinning, he has to keep dying. But even that isn't enough for them. They have to partake of the sacraments in order to get grace. One of the sacraments is the "eucharist." Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet who wasn't quite as important as Mohammad. They even believe that he didn't die on the cross, that someone was substituted at the last minute in his place. They believe that if their "good works" outweigh their "bad works," they'll make it to Heaven. They don't realize that no one even has any good works. They don't realize that in order to get to Heaven they have to have an Atonement. A person HAS to believe in the Jesus of the Bible; not in a "Jesus" who didn't complete the Atonement, not in a "Jesus" who isn't God from eternity. They could believe that their favorite chair is Jesus, but that chair won't save them. The OBJECT of one's faith has to be ABLE to do what one believes it can do. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13269 Registered: 12-2003 |
Back to the question of who is a Christian...I believe Jesus gave the most clear definition in John 3: we must be born of the spirit in order to see the kingdom of heaven. A great many people profess Christianity and claim the orthodox doctrines of the faith. Yet only those who are made alive in Christ are His body. We simply can't always know who they are. I believe Rick may be right that many people become true Christians (born again) before they leave Adventism, thus becoming uncomfortable with the doctrines and actually leaving. Or at least they are responding to the Holy Spirit and listening to His urging them to believe Scripture...God knows who are His, and He keeps them...even before they come to know Him. God knows how to bring people to Himself. Colleen | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 292 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Colleen~ Yes~God does know how to bring people to Himself! It is a miracle! I am living proof! All PRAISE to God! ~mj~ | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1452 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, I think you may be picking and choosing what aspects of the "right" Jesus are necessary to believe in. I'm certainly not suggesting that you must know how the Trinity works, but if you don't believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and you don't believe that God is One, you do not believe in the God of the Bible. And that is just as simple to understand, and perhaps more so, than what a completed atonement is or is not. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2311 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric_b; what does a little child understand? That's how much we need to know to get saved. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1456 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well I doubt a little child understands atonement at all, let alone complete versus incomplete atonement. | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 293 Registered: 2-2008 |
Imagine kissing a bride with her veil still down, pretty silly huh! even a child can see that. This is all a matter of the heart. Repentance is changing your heart, realizing you are a hopeless sinner in need of a Savior. Unless the veil of self righteousness, righteousness established by your own efforts is lifted, how do you expect Jesus to give you a big kiss. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 293 Registered: 2-2011 |
~I agree, Christo~ Accepting Jesus as your Savior~ "...is all a matter of the heart." I believe this applies to a child, as well as, an adult~ ~mj~ |
