| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8004 Registered: 9-2006  |
While political battles are being played out in the U.S., I find it amazing how swiftly the march toward Armageddon is taking place. I wonder if those that are of the replacement theology persuasion will ever realize the role that Israel takes in the end times even if the battle of Armageddon so clearly predicted in the bible were to take place under their noses. Even as we are embroiled in this election, Iran rushes to obtain nuclear capability and some say they may already have it. Back in the 70’s when I studied Bible prophecy it wasn’t clear how all this would shape up that would lead to Armageddon. Today it has become crystal clear. The last pieces of the puzzle are being put into place, the rapture of the church is imminent and we must not become so embroiled in the political schemes that are being played out that we cannot see the larger picture. Having a voice to protect those who cannot protect themselves is important, however, we must not lose sight of the goal to try to bring the gospel to those around us, our neighbors, our friends and families, and perhaps it is time to warn them that the time for the church age is running out. I wrote ‘The Day Time Ran Out’, not that I believe that the end of the church age would take place in this manner, but a fictional story that warns not to be caught up in a world after the rapture takes place. We don’t live in the halls of Washington DC, we live in our homes, neighborhoods and towns and those are the ones that the church has an opportunity to speak to about the Christ who died so that through him, they might be saved. I am not writing with a finger pointed at you, it is pointed at me. I am writing to me. How does this apply to former Adventist? I envision our present former Adventist as children who are born late, who have had a late birth so to speak, born late on the great stage of the world. I believe that if those who’s families are still caught up in the false religion of Adventism are to be reached, then now is the time to witness to them as the times grows ever shorter. The Adventist reject our witness, but at least they were told. What if the opportunity slips away and we remain silent? We are going to be rejected and scorned as Christians when we become vocal. And if we know that ahead of time, but still the job is to be done, as Christians we must stand our ground in the face of rejection and scorn. Proclamation has done a good job of that. Its has not been afraid of their faces and we, in our microcosmic worlds, must not be afraid of their faces. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8005 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. Jeremiah 1:7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Jeremiah 1:8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 1:9 Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. So many times we as Christians are cowed by their bluster and condemning faces. The Lord puts a message in our mouth and we are afraid to speak them. We find excuses in all sorts of things like, "What if I am wrong?" "They will reject what I say." and so fourth. We, in short, are afraid of their faces. Through faith in a living God we can and we will bring a message of hope. River | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 606 Registered: 2-2011  |
River~ Thank-you for having the courage to post this important message~ "We" can be "Fearless" when we go in the Strength of the LORD~ ~mj~ | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 242 Registered: 5-2011  |
I do think that Jesus is coming soon. I think the main reason that makes Adventists so hard to reach is that they are so sure they are the "one true church". They don't want to hear anything that will disprove their doctrines. A Lutheran friend at Andrews University said this is how Adventists debate things: "This is the issue, this is what the Adventists believe, and this is why everyone else is wrong." | ||
| Jonasaras Registered user Username: Jonasaras Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2012 |
When I left the SDA church it took me many years to find a framework that made sense out of Bible prophecy. After a lot of research I found that the system that William Miller rejected, Historic Post-Millenialism, was the one that was most compelling. Talk about "recovering lost truth"! The books that rocked my mind were "Revelation Made Easy", "The Olivet Discourse Made Easy" and "Postmillemialism Made Easy" all by Dr. Kenneth Gentry. Even if you ultimately wind up disagreeing with this viewpoint, Gentry is a widely recognized Bible scholar (not a wacko with an undecipherable website). I'll post a very brief overview of this theological framework when time permits. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 617 Registered: 2-2011 |
Jonasaras~ ~WELCOME~ to the Forum~ I look forward to getting to know you. ~mj~ | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8010 Registered: 9-2006 |
I really don't think any of us should spend time agreeing or disagreeing about what, when or where. What I think we should all agree on is that all of us only has so much time and should take note of that as per Jesus instructions in John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. This has been the case since these words were uttered by our Lord. And we are instructed in Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. To me the day grows clearer than yesterday and I suppose as I grow older that I become more aware of our mortality here on this earth, but I don't think all of it is older age. Did I say old? Whack me with a wet turnip. I am trying to be less pessimistic.  River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13966 Registered: 12-2003  |
Welcome, Jonasaras! We looking forward to knowing you. We're glad you're here! Colleen | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 152 Registered: 4-2012 |
Hello, Jonasaras. | ||
| Jonasaras Registered user Username: Jonasaras Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2012 |
Thanks for the welcome everyone! Indulge me for a bit as I give this brief overview of Historic Postmillenialism, and I sincerely think that it will give River a break from his pessimism. It was the dominant prophetic framework that predated the sensationalistic views of Darby and William Miller. The simplest Bible text that sums this eschatological view up is 1 Corinthians 15:24-26, “Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when He abolishes all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be abolished is death. For God has put everything under His feet”. So let's put these events in chronological order, which can be done if you read the passage in reverse: 1.God has put everything under His (Jesus') feet. 2.He (Jesus) must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet. 3.He abolishes all rule, authority and power. 4.THEN comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God. So the question then is “When does Jesus begin his millennial reign?” It should first be noted that the number “1000” in Scripture simply means “many”. When the Psalmist says in Psalm 50:1 “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills” it does not mean that on hill number 1001 the cattle belongs to someone else! Likewise, Revelation is a book of symbols (Rev 1:1) and the thousand year reign simply means a “long time”. Matthew 28:18 states “all authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth”. This is a present tense reality; not something that happens in a future catastrophic event. Acts 2 is even more explicit on this point. Acts 2:16-21 indicates that the prophecy in Joel 2:28-32 has come to pass and verse 17 states that the “last days” are here (approximately AD 33). Acts 2:30-31 is especially worthy of careful reading. “God has sworn an oath to him (David) to seat on of his descendants on his throne. Seeing this in advance, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Messiah”. Scripture is completely explicit here. Jesus was seated on David's throne at the resurrection. Many other NT texts make the a similar point (see Rom 1:3-4, Eph 1:20-23). Acts 2:34 goes on to quote Psalm 110:1 “The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies Your footstool”. Psalm 110:1 is the most quoted OT text in the NT and it's point is clear. Jesus is presently reigning, during the course of history. This is not a future, post-historic event brought about by a calamity. It is precisely because of Jesus' present-tense reign that He gave the command in Matthew 28:18-19 “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go, THEREFORE, and make disciples of all nations...” This is the fulfillment of Daniel 7:14 “He was given authority to rule, and glory, and a kingdom; so that those of every people, nation and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed”. What's the point of all this? Under Jesus reign during the church age (millenium), the kingdom will continue to gradually increase like a mustard seed or yeast (Matt 13:31-33) until opposition to it becomes an insignificant minority (all enemies are put under His feet) and that Jesus gave the church a mission that it will complete during the course of history. It is a positive view of prophecy, not a negative one. There's obviously much more to unpack, but I think this is a decent starting point. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 620 Registered: 2-2011 |
Dear Jonasaras~ I, too, have devoted days, months, and yes, even years, to the study of the very thing you have written about in the post above~ I want to be clear about your stated belief; am I to ascertain that you prefer, after your study, to believe in the "Blasted Hope" for the believers in the "Church Age," as opposed to the "Blessed Hope," that I believe in, the "Rapture"? Yes, I did say, "Rapture"!!! ? I think, that we will have to politely "agree, to disagree"! My mind is made up! ~mj~ (Message edited by mjcmcook on September 11, 2012) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1734 Registered: 7-2003  |
I feel the need to stress this every time the topic comes up. Everyone on all sides of the debate believe we will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air because the Bible says so (Greek: "harpazo", Latin: "raptura", English: "caught up"). It's the timing, sequencing, and details around being caught up/raptured to meet the Lord that we debate. I think there is very limited information in saying "I believe in the rapture" because that is tantamount to saying, "I believe in the word 'harpazo/ratura' in I Thess. 4:17", which all Bible believing Christians do. What is more interesting is to say, "I believe that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in this particular event timeline, and here's where the Bible outlines that particular sequence". Then we have some content that we can actually talk about. MJ, You may want to re-read Jonasarus' summary of postmillenialism. I suspect from your "blasted hope" comment above that you have missed the defining distinction of the postmillenial position, the overwhelmingly positive flow of church history and the eventual triumph and rule of the Church on earth *prior* to the return of Christ. Far from being "blasted", the Church wins. Things get better and better, not worse and worse, before Jesus returns. For what it's worth, I don't happen to lean that particular way, but I didn't want you to miss what the actual position is. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 621 Registered: 2-2011 |
Chris~ Actually, I was responding to the the first two statements of Jonasaras's post # 5~ "Indulge me a bit as I give this brief overview of Historic Postmillenislism, and I sincerely think it will give River a break from his pessimism. It was a dominate prophetic framework that predated the sensationalistic views of Darby and William Miller......." These statements lead me to think that Jonasaras is not a proponent of the pre millennial Rapture of the Church as taught in the New Testament, as River and I believe it, along with thousands of other Christians. I saw no reason to explain the pre millennial view to Jonasaras, with Scripture, because it seemed obvious to me he had studied quite widely the three views, "pre, mid, and post "Trib". ~mj~ | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1735 Registered: 7-2003 |
MJ, I think you may still be missing the postmillenial viewpoint. In post millennialism, there isn't necessarily a 7 year tribulation at the end time as your "blasted hope" implies. The church doesn't end up being persecuted. It ends up being dominant. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 622 Registered: 2-2011 |
Chris~ I appreciate your concern; however, I do understand post millennialism, even though it may not seem this way to you~ This is all I have to say on this subject at this time. ~mj~ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13969 Registered: 12-2003 |
Eschatology is not something over which Christians should divide; it is considered secondary, and many true believers hold varying opinions on the subject. That being said, I don't lean toward postmillennialism, either. What I do see is NT evidence that there will be a kingdom on earth when Christ reigns on earth with His people prior to the last battle and the second resurrection (Rev. 20). Romans 9 through 11 also indicate that there is yet something that will happen when Jews will be unhardened. I do not feel extremely dogmatic about the particulars of how and when, but I do see that there is a statement that Christ will reign over the nations after the first resurrection. I'm not seeing evidence that the church brings in the kingdom nor that there is a time when things become better and better as the kingdom begins to dominate the world. The Lord Jesus brings in the kingdom...which is an "already-but-not-yet" kingdom in which He is reigning over all things, but He is not reigning over the nations with His people. 2 Thessalonians indicates that terrible things are still to come before the Lord Jesus is revealed in the "glorified flesh", so to speak! The more literally I read the Bible, the more it hangs together as a unified whole. I admit there are details about which I still feel less than clear, but I do feel clear about the millennium, whether it is a thousand years or a figurative thousand. It precedes the last judgment, and it happens on earth with Jesus here, according to Rev. 20. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 8011 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think Jonasaras was kidding about the pessimism. Welcome to the forum Jonasaras. I hope you find it a place that leads to many life long friendships just as I have. I have heard Gentry extensively speak and I cannot subscribe to that leaning. He is a good speaker though, I give him that. I think the overwhelming majority of people that have spent a lifetime in the study of Bible prophecy believe somewhat as I do. However perhaps the point I wanted too end up making was lost in how I presented that point and it seems I'm famous for this on the forum. The point I wanted to make rather than the timeline which post millennialism disputes can be better summed up in John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. I think we could agree that this verse of scripture crosses any timeline we may disagree on? And of course my second point is in Jeremiah 1:4-9. River | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 193 Registered: 9-2011  |
Someone please point me in a direction to more definition. Is it 'secret rapture'? The state of Israel literally involved because of their race?? The rapture invisible?? Maybe a website or something to elaborate to this alien here, way out in the deeps. Charles | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 627 Registered: 2-2011 |
Charles~ If you are interested in studying the Rapture~ I am giving you a reliable source site to go to on the "net". www.raptureforums.com If this address does not work when you click it on here, just type it in your address line on your computer. When you reach the site page on the left hand side in a yellow box will be links to go to for specific information~ I encourage you to click on the one about 1/3 of the way down~ Rapture of the Church. Read this and just go from there for more information. I hope this helps you and gives you the answers you are looking for. ~mj~ | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 628 Registered: 2-2011 |
Charles~ YEAH!!! I just tried the link I gave you and it works! ~mj~ | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 629 Registered: 2-2011 |
Charles~ One more thing! When I came out of adventism many years ago and began attending a non-denominational church, I started studying the Rapture there. To continue my study accompanied by Scripture, I also bought books on this profound subject at the Christian Book store in my town, because there was not an internet then!!! Now days you can buy the books, but it is faster and easier, not to mention the expense of books, to just go to this reliable source on the "net". However, some day you may want some books. I can help you locate these. ~mj~ | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 194 Registered: 9-2011 |
Thanks ~mj~ I needed that. I will surely need a Berean deep study on this subject. Another favor to ask: I've studied some on the 'spirit' topic and still kind of baffled on that one too. Oh yes, and the hell of a thing is a real puzzler as well. A description as to just what 'hell' is would help. I know some things aren't a test of salvation level of importance, but I'm very curious anyhow. Charles | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 630 Registered: 2-2011 |
Charles~ This is what I would do if I were you to answer your questions regarding the "spirit" & hell. There are are clear, consise, truthful studies right here on this Former Adventist web site! To get there do this~ Go to the "Home page" of this Forum Click on the Proclamation magazine cover This takes you to the magazine to read online, however at the the top of the page is a subject line~ Click on "Studies" This takes you to a colored "Links" for different subjects. Click where it tells you to (download here) on "Spirits, Death and Hell", by Jeremy Graham(he also contributes occasionally here in the Forum) this is a study I highly recommend. The study is in the "PDF" format and it is FREE!!! I hope this helps you in your search for TRUTH! I will be praying for you~ ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 196 Registered: 9-2011 |
Mucho thanks again mj. I shall give it my best shot, which will take time. Knocking on doors, seeing them opened. Maybe a 'wormhole' too? Ha! Charles | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 632 Registered: 2-2011 |
Charles~ "You are Very Welcome"~! ~*~mj~*~ |
