| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2101 Registered: 6-2006  |
I had an interesting conversation with an SDA today on facebook regarding Jesus' statement in Matthew 22:37-40(NASB), 37 And He said to him, “ ‘ You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [a]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘ You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” This fella explained that he believes Jesus was referring only to the 10 Commandments when he used the word "commandment" in those verses. When I pointed out the words "whole law" and asked "if Jesus was a Jew and a rabbi, wouldn't he be referring to the whole law and not just 10 commandments?" the SDA fellow said he'd get back to me later. So it brings up my next question ~ according to SDA doctrine, when would Jesus have stopped referring to the Torah as the entire law and only referred to the 10 commandments? Does SDA doctrine even acknowledge the Torah? It seems so basic, but clearly the fellow couldn't see it. All he could see (as usual) is the sabbath. Formers, what did you know about the entire law? Or did that even exist in your experiences? Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13766 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great question. As an Adventist, I knew about the Torah, but I didn't know much. I understood the law to be divided into ceremonial and moral components, and I just believed that when Jesus talked about the law, he meant the 10 Commandments. I don't know how I explained it or "understood" it. I think I didn't question that detail much. I did wonder how Christians who obviously had God's law written on their hearts...as in all the other nine...still had to be taught the Sabbath. I knew they weren't "getting" Sabbath apart from special teaching. That fact was unresolvable for me. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2102 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Colleen, I asked this guy if he thought Jesus taught the Torah or if he only kept part of the law. The fellow wouldn't answer. His stock reply was "I just follow the ten commandments", and "that's what I believe to be the standard for which to be a decent human being." I guess this guy believes that Jesus only kept ten commandments. Even after seeing the words "whole law" he couldn't get it, or at least didn't want to admit that it meant what it said. I kept thinking of these words in James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." Interesting conversations! It just confirms for me that people aren't reading their Bibles. me | ||
| Punababe808 Registered user Username: Punababe808 Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2012 |
It say "the whole law...". Wouldn't the word whole mean what it says? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2664 Registered: 7-2007 |
When I was an SDA, I just swallowed the whole thing they taught; hook, line and sinker. I didn't study the Bible on my own enough to see that it didn't split the law into "ceremonial" and "moral." The SDA church taught it and unfortunately that was enough for me. It took a series of miracles to get me out of the Adventist church. | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 314 Registered: 2-2008 |
Scripture says that the ordinances of the law that were against us were nailed to the cross. I think I have heard it said in SDA circles that that just meant the ceremonial laws. The ceremonial laws such as Day of Atonement etc. were not against the people, but were actually the remedy for sin under the Law. Also Kind of a twisted logic because the sabbath is a ceremonial law that does not provide a remedy for sin, but actually magnifies the presence of sin. Also The sabbath is included in the ministration of death written in stone, so it seems more of what would be dispensed with under their logic. Thank you Jesus for providing the remedy for my sin. Chris | ||
| Katarain Registered user Username: Katarain Post Number: 199 Registered: 1-2012 |
When talking about keeping the law, the Bible is referring to the 10 commandments. When talking about being free from the law and the law being fulfilled, the Bible is talking about the ceremonial law. It's easy! No? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2707 Registered: 5-2007  |
For Adventist logic to hold up to a biblical supported foundation there is a little problem. The bible doesn't say that. You would think (there I go again being logical) somebody would notice that the emperor riding down the street in his new suit of clothes is naked. Of course there was a time when I bought into that logic. However even then I didn’t understand and since those much smarter than me believed it I assumed there was something wrong with me. What a shock when I finally realized I wasn’t as dumb I as I thought I was. Phil | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2708 Registered: 5-2007 |
Oh, one more thing on this logic topic: Even as a child I knew God would not contradict himself and will not tell a lie, so….. How was it possible that Joshua or King David could be commanded to kill all those Canaanites yet it was wrong for me to defend myself, my family or my country? Although I didn’t think of it in terms of Adventist theology being wrong and false I simply knew it could not be wrong to bear arms. It was a double standard I didn’t know the answer to. So, when I joined the Marine Corps and was sure it was right to defend my country, I assumed I would go to hell for doing so. Phil | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 410 Registered: 5-2009 |
Simple, clear, Brilliant Katarain!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13772 Registered: 12-2003 |
Phil, I always love your logic! Thanks for weighing in on this...and yes, Katarain, Brilliant! Colleen | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 315 Registered: 2-2008 |
Katarain, 1John, I don't get it? Chris | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 371 Registered: 10-2009  |
Basically Chris- Adventists split the Law into Moral and Ceremonial Laws. That way they can say that the Law we have to Keep is the Ten Commandments. And that the Law that was nailed to the Cross/being fulfilled/ or the law that we're being freed from as the Ceremonial Law. Of course to the Jew/Israelite the Law is the entirety of the first 5 books of the Old Testament. And the only person who has ever kept the Ten Commandments was Jesus Christ- God in Man. Ross (Message edited by RossBondReturns on June 14, 2012) | ||
| Katarain Registered user Username: Katarain Post Number: 200 Registered: 1-2012 |
Christo, I was making a joke, because of how SDAs interpret the law, as Ross said. | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 316 Registered: 2-2008 |
Now that I know its a joke , it is pretty funny. I was commenting in the same vain as Ross, but found it strange that the parts of the Law that were not against them i.e. the Day of Atonement, which actually gave them a temporary remedy for their sin under the Law, was the part they would chuck, and the condemning side of the law, the ministration of death written on stones is the part they would retain. I think if I was going to divide the Law, and get rid of half of it I would Have kept the ceremonial. Of coarse the Law cannot be divided. Thanks for letting me in on the joke. Chris | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2713 Registered: 5-2007 |
The bible never breaks the Torah into parts and declare one part versus another as being void or obsolete while retaining other parts as eternal. The Torah, the writings attributed to Moses, is the first five books of the Old Testament. When we learn that Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law we must understand that he fulfilled everything required in the Torah. If you insist on dividing the law in parts you need to remember that there are at least three parts which are…. 1. Moral 2. Ceremonial 3. Civil The point I am making is that much of what we find in the Torah is civil law which has no direct moral or ceremonial significance. The civil aspects of the Torah are being ignored by those who see the Mosaic Law as either moral or ceremonial when they arbitrarily assert that only the ceremonial was fulfilled at the cross. All of which is a ‘straw man’ argument because it is nothing more than human devised worldly logic unsupported anywhere in Scripture. Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13776 Registered: 12-2003 |
Phil, to the point and clear. Thank you. You are exactly right. Colleen | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 372 Registered: 10-2009 |
That's perfectly said Phil...outstanding. Much better than I could've said it. Ross | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 226 Registered: 5-2011  |
SDAs are legalists. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2105 Registered: 6-2006 |
"When we learn that Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law we must understand that he fulfilled everything required in the Torah." Oh my gosh, anything less than that and His death was in vain and our salvation is lost. There would be no hope! Thank you Phil ~  Leigh Anne | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 317 Registered: 2-2008 |
Thanks Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2670 Registered: 7-2007 |
One thing that Adventists don't realize is that when a person REALLY accepts Jesus as their Savior, ALL their sins; past, present and future are forgiven. Adventists cannot REALLY accept Jesus as their Savior because they believe they have to do part of the work to be saved; so they don't even know what it's like to be saved. Examples from the Bible include Eph.2:8-9; 2nd Tim.1:9 and Titus 3:5 where believers are told they have been saved and 1st John 2:12 where believers are told ahead of time, because the letter hadn't been sent yet that their sins are forgiven! Adventists misunderstand the law and the covenants. The covenant from Sinai called the "ministry of death written and engraved on stones," - 2nd Cor.3:7-8 - became "obsolete" - Hebrews 8:13 - and which the Bible says "gives birth to bondage," - Gal.4:24 - wasn't from forever. Deut.4:13 says just what that covenant was and Deut.5:2-3 says who that covenant was given to. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13778 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very true, Asurprise. It's a big "shift" to understand that the "requirement" of the law that is fulfilled through Jesus in us when we believe is the requirement of death for sin. We think that the text in Romans that says "we uphold the law" means we uphold its demands for moral behavior. That's not at all what that text means. In context (Romans 5) Paul is explaining that the law came in to cause sin to INCREASE, that a righteousness apart from law is now here because of Jesus one act of obedience: His death. So when we say we uphold the law, the meaning is that we endorse and teach that the law's requirement is that people receive death if they sin, and Jesus fulfilled that righteous requirement. Of COURSE we uphold the law! It demanded death for anything less than perfection, and Jesus came and did it!! He is the fulfillment of the law, and His death establishes and fulfills its requirements. If we didn't "establish" the law, we would have to deny the eternal necessity of Jesus' death. Colleen | ||
| Darrell Registered user Username: Darrell Post Number: 131 Registered: 10-1999 |
Colleen, I think you must mean the end of Romans 3. Someone previously on the forum pointed out that After that verse Paul goes on to uphold the law by showing from the law, that we are saved by faith as Abraham was. I found that explanation very helpful. -Darrell (temporarily south of the equator with limited Internet access) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13785 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Darrell, thank you! It is the end of Romans 3 where Paul says we uphold the law and then explains we are saved by faith as Abraham was. It is Romans 5 where he explains that where there is no law, sin is not imputed to us even though death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. And it is the end of Romans 5 where Paul says,
Thanks for picking up on that, Darrell...and greet your with-you-south-of-the-equator family for us! Colleen |
