| Author |
Message |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 472
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 10:29 am: |     |
~Lyrical
~WELCOME~ To the Forum~
~mj~ |
Lyrical
Registered user
Username: Lyrical
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2012
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 12:12 am: | |
Thank you so much for the warm welcome... I need to be here and am looking forward to chatting! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13616
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 10:13 pm: | |
Lyrical, welcome! I'm so glad you're here! I agree with your thoughts on the Transfiguration. It's an amazing thing.
Colleen |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 702
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 11:23 am: | |
Thanks Colleen,
Hi Lyrical,
I totally agree that the main "point" of the Transfiguration is that the Law and the Prophets are overshadowed by Jesus and the New Covenant.
What you said about the vision surprised me, as I didn't remember reading that, but I checked it up and you are right. The NIV translates it differently, but back to that later.
I had a few thoughts on this, which are a bit of an "on the one hand, but on the other" nature, but here goes.
The first thing that came to me is that if this were merely a vision of something that was not happening in reality, then it can tell us absolutely nothing about the state of the dead, one way or the other, and it would also mean there is nothing in the Bible whatsoever to support the idea that Moses rose from the dead (as the OT and Jude certainly do not teach it).
However...
The word translated "vision" in Matthew 17:9 (horama) may certainly mean vision. The only other places this word occurs in the NT are all in the book of Acts, and in most cases it does refer to what would be considered a vision in the classical sense, i.e. a supernatural revelation from God in visible form by means of something that is not there is reality. For instance, Peter's vision of the sheet with the animals in Acts 10:3,17,19 or Paul's vision of the man of Macedonia in Acts 16:9,10. The word also occurs in Acts 7:31, however, in Stephen's speech in reference to when God appeared to Moses in the burning bush. The text says that an angel appeared to Moses in the flames, and Moses was amazed at the "horama". There is nothing here, or in Exodus 3, to indicate that this was not really happening, and so the NIV translates it here as "sight". It seems that this word, which is based on the word "horaó - to see", can mean vision, sight, spectacle, something seen (whether really present of not).
(Sorry this is a bit long, if it's too boring and techinical, skip to the next post, do not pass go...)
Back to the transfiguration.
I also checked the parallel passages in Luke and Mark to see what they had to say.
According to the NIV:
Matthew 17:9 "As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, 'don't tell anyone what you have seen'". (Greek: horama - noun, vision).
Mark 9:9 "As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen". (Greek: eidov - aorist tense of verb "blepó", to see - they saw).
Luke 9:36 "The disciples kept this to themselves, and told no-one at that time what they had seen." (heórakan - perfect tense of verb "horaó", to see - they have seen).
So although sightly different words and expressions are used in the three accounts, it would seem to me that they say basically the same thing, that the disciples were not to speak of "the things that they had seen". And apart from that one word in the Matthew account, I see nothing in the texts to indicate that these things were not really happening.
Another point is that, if it were "just a vision" if would mean that Peter, James, John and Jesus all had the same vision at the same time, and I cannot think of a Biblical precendent for anything like that happening at any other time, though correct me if I'm wrong.
For the above reasons, I tend to think that the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration was not merely a "vision" but it was real in some way or other, even if not physical in the case of Moses.
Which means that the "dynamic equivalent" translations by the NIV in these cases actually do reflect what was meant by the authors.
Well, that's what I came up with.
Isten áldjon,
Adrian |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 703
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 11:30 am: | |
Carol,
The Transfiguration certainly is amazing.
What you said about Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah about his "departure" does in fact only occur in Luke's account, and the Greek word here is "exodos". Jesus was concerned about his "exodus" in Jerusalem. The original exodus delivered the people from bondage in Egypt, whereas Jesus by his "exodus", i.e his suffering and death, would deliver far more people from the far worse bondage of sin.
Now isn't that awesome?
Adrian |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13622
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 3:06 pm: | |
Adrian, thank you! That was really helpful. No, I can't think of anyone having the same vision at the same time, either..very helpful.
Colleen |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 1129
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 11:27 pm: | |
Loved your post, Adrian. You can "bore" us any old time!
River, what makes SDAs so dad-gum (good word, huh?) stubborn about Samuel and the thief on the cross is that: #1--Ellen has addressed these texts and told them the "real truth" and, #2--the rebuttals to these texts, if ever brought up to SDA teachers or pastors, were drilled into our heads so that we could show Christians that brought them up the real scoop...oh, yes, we practiced these answers and tried to convince Christians of what they RALLY meant...so you were a sitting duck!
SDAs hear these "problem" texts and are taught the answers all their lives. |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 704
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 3:56 pm: | |
Thanks y'all (ye) for your encouragement |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7955
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 3:31 am: | |
Yeah Nowisee, there were several Adventists that thought I was a sitting duck but I turned out to be more than a handful for them.
Their big problem was the Holy Spirit who kept bringing scripture to my mind just as he has said he would do and has always done.
Plus I had wonderful teachers, pastors who had dedicated their very lives to God to instill the foundations in me that I needed early on.
As I listened to Adventist the alarm bells would ring and cacheeenge! Up would pop up a scripture to my mind. Gods promises are yea and amen.
Ever since I read that his word is a lamp unto my feet, I've never had to bring a flashlight. 
You don't need a lessor light when you are sitting in full Son!
River |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 1136
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 12:26 am: | |
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