| Author | Message | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 114 Registered: 1-2012 |
Although we know that no one except Jesus lived a sinless life, there are references to "righteous" men in the OT - Noah, and I believe Enoch, perhaps others. Enoch "walked with God" and was eventually "translated" to heaven while still living. If Enoch, Elijah, and Moses merited being taken to heaven early, long before Jesus came (vs. being "dead in Christ" until the resurrection), did they still need Jesus to intercede for them? (I'm assuming the answer is "yes", but I don't understand how the OT speaks of these men with such esteem, while the NT speaks of all human righteousness as filthy rags, etc.) The OT doesn't seem to paint these men (especially Enoch) as failures under the law, although there are examples of disobedience by Moses and irresponsible behavior by Noah. Is this a Hebrew/Greek translation issue (re: righteous), and how is this explained by Christian scholars - other than that sovereign God can take home whom he pleases? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2694 Registered: 5-2007  |
Since only God is righteous and all fallen mankind is under the curse of sin, this is key to understanding why the gospel of Jesus (the death, burial and resurrection) 'covers' our sin by his blood and we are declared righteous even though we still sin. This would also include Enoch and Elijah and anyone else, New Testament or Old. Oh, and there is no biblical support to believe Mose has been resurrected and physically alive in heaven. A good related study is on 'the faith of Abraham. He never led a perfect life yet he was righteous in the sight of God. King David sinned greatly yet God said of him; "he is a man after my own heart". Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7913 Registered: 9-2006  |
Uh...uh then how do you explain this? :Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. I'd say thats some support of something.  River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2563 Registered: 7-2007 |
"...all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment." Isaiah 64:6 | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 115 Registered: 1-2012 |
Thanks Phil, I understand that man's deeds never merit salvation. It's just hard to grasp how Enoch's peers would have perceived his being literally/bodily being taken to heaven. Why Enoch? God had his reasons, I'm sure. And your point about Moses is valid; I guess there is no text indicating Moses is physically alive in heaven. But, as River noted, there is evidence he was resurrected. Asurprise, thanks for that OT reference. The fact that Noah "...was a righteous man" (and therefore God chose to save him & family) doesn't quite square with all our righteousness being worse than nothing. Maybe the key word is "deeds," as Phil referenced true believers (even OT) being considered righteous and men after God's own heart, despite their deeds. Hebrew scholars might shed some light here. Is the same Hebrew word consistently used for what we read in English as "righteous?" | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 117 Registered: 1-2012 |
P.S. Yes River, this is one of those "Good grief, you Formers question EVERYthing" moments. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 3003 Registered: 8-2004  |
Or maybe Noah was righteous because he trusted God (and acted on it)? I know he must have trusted God aLOT in order to build the ark that God told him to make. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13608 Registered: 12-2003  |
Phil's reference to Abraham is actually the place where we find the answer. Genesis 15:6 says this about Abraham:
Paul explains in Romans 4 (quoting the above verse in verses 3 and 22 besides in Galatians 3:6) that Abraham is the father of us all, the circumcised and the uncircumcised—all who believe God. The point is that Enoch, Moses, etc. believed God and acted on their trust in His promises. Paul explains in Romans 4 that Abraham (who received the name Father of many nations before he ever had a child)—when his body was as good as dead—and he believed that God was able to do what He said even if there was no physical evidence it would happen. Abraham is the father of ALL who are counted righteous on the basis of their belief in God. Enoch believed God. Moses believed God. All who are His trust His promises. That belief and acting in trust is what God counts as righteousness, because we give up our rationalizing and our efforts to make things happen and just rest in Him. Moses, by the way, could have appeared at the transfiguration by God's giving him a visible body. Angels are spirits by definition (Heb. 1:14), and they are allowed to materialize for the sake of humans when God ordains it. And don't forget Samuel, whom Saul asked the witch of Endor to conjure. The Bible SAYS it was Samuel who came up. Now, Samuel wouldn't have come up without God's permission—and for sure that episode with the called-up Samuel delivered a truthful prophecy that spelled Saul's doom (1 Samuel 28:8-20). But God can make the dead appear if necessary—yet all this is to be understood in the framework of what Jesus said in Matthew 22:32:
Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 699 Registered: 2-2003  |
I don't believe that Moses was raised from the dead. I have seen some references to it outside Adventist circles, but not very often. It is generally Adventism that insists on it. What does the Bible say? Deuteronomy 34: 5-6 says that Moses died and God buried him. In Joshua 1:2 God says to Joshua, "Moses my servant is dead..." and that's it! No resurrection here. Jude 9 alludes to an intertestamental Jewish apocalypse called "The Assumption of Moses", which is non-canonical and legendary. The reference is for the purpose of illustration, and should not be used to built doctrine on. Even if the events referred to actually occurred, the verse only mentions that Satan and Michael were disputing over Moses' body and not what the dispute was about or what happened afterwards, no resurrection here either. I believe the original work has been lost, so even then we don't know if the "Assumption" was supposed to be in the body or out of it, i.e. his spirit was taken to heaven. Clement of Alexandria probably refers to this work when he says that Joshua watched Moses "double", as the angels buried the body and then accompanied Moses' spirit to heaven (Stromateis, VI, 15). There is also another apocryphal work "The Apocalypse of Moses" in which something similar happens to Adam and Eve, i.e. their bodies are buried and their spirits taken to heaven to await the resurrection. The Jews of Jesus' day (at least the Pharisaic tradition) believed in a general resurrection at the end of the age. We see this alluded to by Martha in John 11:23-24. The idea of anyone being raised from the dead before the end of the age was a new concept for them. That is why it was difficult for them to accept Jesus' resurrection, and this would indicate they had no notion of it having happened in the past either. As to Jesus' resurrection, he is said to be the first to rise from the dead (Acts 26:22-23), the firstborn from the dead (Col. 1:18) and the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Cor 15:20). The idea of Moses having been raised finally from the dead hundreds years before Jesus, for me detracts from the uniqueness of Christ, and is inconsistent with these Biblical teachings. Just my thoughts, thanks for listening, Adrian | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7918 Registered: 9-2006 |
Truman, you read my mind! I don't have a clew as to how to answer the righteousness question, but it is interesting to me what people think about Moses. Doc, I don't think his body was resurrected, yet here he is talking with Jesus many years later. Ergo, it would seem to me that it was Moses Spirit who appeared. Too much explanation of why I believe this would detract from the question I have for you. Do you believe, in your own opinion, that it was Moses there with Jesus, or they thought it was Moses and instead, an angel? The reason I am so interested in this is that I was discussing with some Adventist friends about the witch of Endore, he stated that no way could it have been Samuel, that it had to be a demon. Right away I referred him to Matthew 17:3 and the fellow just clammed up and wouldn't say another word. It was most disappointing that he clammed up on me. Sorry Truman if this detracts from your question. River | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 700 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi River, Nice to talk to you! What I have to start with in these questions, is what does the text itself actually say? At the transfiguration, it says Moses and Elijah appeared, and in the Samuel passage it says that Samuel appeared. There is nothing in the texts themselves to indicate that this is not the case, and so I believe that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus, and that Samuel appeared to the witch. That is what the text says. So I believe it. Any attempt to deny this is based on theological or philosophical presuppositions or speculations and not on the text. I believe that my faith should be based on what the Bible says, and not on extra-biblical notions which lead to my denying the text. Although the Bible strongly forbids trying to communicate with the dead, as far as I know (someone correct me if otherwise) there is no specific passage which states that a demon appears instead of the dead person. I actually think that this is probably the case, but that is based on experience (personal as well, when dealing with my Gypsy friends) and not on any specific text. Therefore to state "it had to be a demon" is not actually based on the Bible at all, either on that text or any other. Sorry to belabour the point, but, does that answer your question? So, I believe it was really Moses who appeared to Jesus, but not in a resurrected, physical body. OK? God bless you! Adrian | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7922 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yep, pretty much takes care of it Doc, thanks a bunch, Always nice to see you pop in. River | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 701 Registered: 2-2003 |
As far as the "righteous" thing is concerned. In Genesis 6:9, Noah is called righteous and blameless: tsádíq and támím in Hebrew. By the way, both Noah and Enoch (and Abraham) lived before the law was given at Sinai, so their conduct could have nothing to do with the law, just that they were obedient to what God told them to do. Job is also said to be tám, related to the above word (1:1). I don't think we need to assume that any of these OT saints were "sinless", as Jesus was the only one who was that, but that as far as they were able they sought God from the heart, and wanted to be obedient to the things he told them to do. Utimately, they are saved by the sacrifice of Christ too, but they were only looking forward to it, and we are looking back. Hope that makes sense. The "righteous acts" referred to in Isaiah 64:6 are some sort of verbal form of the Hebrew word tsádíq (actual form: tsidqótéinu), though perhaps the historical context of this should be considered, and it should not be just taken as a universal statement of total depravity (that may get me into trouble with the "proof-texters") In the NT, Noah is called a "preacher of righteousness" (2Peter 2:5). This word is dikaiosyné - the usual word for righteousness. I believe that in the age we are now living in, if someone's heart is to please God and to serve him, God will see that and make sure that the person hears the gospel in order to be saved. We see this in the case of Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. He loved God, and tried to do what was pleasing to God, so the Lord sent Peter to him to tell him the way to be saved. Probably doesn't make much sense, sorry. Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13613 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Adrian. Your theological explanations always clarify. Thanks so much for these posts! Colleen | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 119 Registered: 1-2012 |
Thanks to all of you, for such thorough and helpful answers! Regarding Moses, it does seem strange to me that he would appear with Jesus and Elijah, if he was then to go back to being "dead" bodily until the 2nd coming. It sort of begs the question: What's the point of having a resurrection, if the saved can "appear" somewhere in the meantime? But I suppose that's a topic to annoy River in another thread. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7923 Registered: 9-2006 |
funny Truman. What I make of it is there's no reason to believe that the dearly departed who have passed into Gods rest awaiting the resurrection are some foggy beings stuck in limbo somewhere, but are active in Gods kingdom as children of God. I try not to make presumptions on the scripture, but I think it is a reasonable assumption. At least a more reasonable assumption than to think a persons spirit is in some kind of a 'lost in space' or wandering spirit wishing he had a body. However, I agree with Doc 100% when he said "I believe that my faith should be based on what the Bible says, and not on extra-biblical notions which lead to my denying the text." Thats the problem I had with the Adventist theory that the person who appeared had to be a demon. Another run in I had with him was when I referred the group to the scripture where Jesus says to the thief "Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. The Adventist had a fit when I referred to that scripture. It seems Adventist don't really know their Bible, it seems what they know is bits and pieces of it. This was a very tough group to deal with the 5 or 6 years that I was with them. Its like beating your head against a brick wall. I mean these people were really out there in La La land, Michael Jackson eat your heart out. River | ||
| Lyrical Registered user Username: Lyrical Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2012 |
Several thoughts on the Transfiguration... (Matthew 17) Moses represented the Law and Elijah, the Prophets. In v. 5, God says..."This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" (NKJV) This was to indicate that the New Covenant was being issued in by Jesus, who was the fulfillment of the Law & the Prophets. God is saying through this statement that Jesus is greater than the Law & Prophets and that His word/ministry is authoritative. Listen to Him!! Also, in v. 9 Jesus tells the disciples to tell this "vision" to no one. I think it's interesting the incident is referred to by Christ as a "vision." This would indicate that it was not physically real, as there was no resurrection mentioned. (Indeed, Christ is the firstfruits of the dead.) Christ also said in Jn 3:13, "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in Heaven." This would certainaly indicate that no one who had died prior to Christ had been, or was currently in, heaven (including Enoch, Moses, & Elijah). I believe this incident was also to give them a hope of eternal life and future glory, that a future resurrection was a real possibility. Jesus mentions to not say anything until AFTER His resurrection. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2564 Registered: 7-2007 |
Welcome to the forum Lyrical! Truman, the only way to get to Heaven is to be as good as God! None of us are! But in Christ we are! So therefore all who've accepted Christ are righteous! That's what the wedding garment in that parable Jesus told symbolized - Jesus righteousness! Even people who lived before the cross were justified in the same way. | ||
| Foofighter Registered user Username: Foofighter Post Number: 225 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hello Lyrical, and welcome to the forum! I agree with the thought that Moses and Elijah represent the law and the prophets. It seems that when the disciples looked up and they were gone, to me that is saying the law and the prophets are replaced with Jesus. To the Jews, the Law and the Prophets were everything, so to speak. Another interesting part of this is in Luke 9:30-31 where it says that Moses and Elijah were speaking to Jesus about His departure, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. I really find that interesting that Jesus was talking to them about that. Does anyone have any thoughts on those texts? Carol | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9736 Registered: 3-2004  |
Lyrical, welcome to the wonderful world of the FAF. Glad you just jumped in. Diana |
