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Message |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2538
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 8:06 pm: |     |
Thank-you Ric for pointing out that I was right about there being no Biblical command to fast the week before Resurrection Sonday. Actually Lent is supposed to be a full forty days - the reason being, that there were forty days after Tammuz was supposedly killed by a wild boar, before he was resurrected. People made cakes in the shape of a T for Tammuz and for those forty days they fasted and mourned and put ashes on their face.
Israelites even did that.
Notice:
Ezekiel 8:13-14 says: "He [God] said also to me, “You will see still greater abominations that they commit.”
Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz." |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1731
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 9:51 pm: | |
I'm not sure what can be vague about it being the Preperation day for the Passover.
I have proposed an explanation that allows the accounts in all 4 Gospels to be true. Notice in the verses quoted by Asurprise from Matthew and Mark that the part left unbolded was that they were preparing the Passover. Something that would be done on the preparation day.
The alternate explanation is that the book of John is wrong in multiple places and that Luke used the wrong word, under direct inspiration, in describing the bread. From my standpoint it is impossible to reconcile John's precise statement that Christ was crucified on the day before Passover with the teaching that the Last Supper was the Passover.
So when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Stone Pavement, and in Aramaic Gabbatha. Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" (John 19:13, 14 ESV)
The preparation day comes before the feast, not after.
and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight. "Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it. (Exodus 12:6-8 ESV)
So Asurprise, are you committed to the idea that the true Passover Lamb was not slain at twilight of the 14th day, but rather a whole day later? Or perhaps they ate the lamb a day before it was slain...
Furthermore, your explanation about the circumcision laws changing who would be allowed to participate in feasts might make sense if that was the answer the Holy Spirit gave to this exact question in Acts 15, unfortunately God gives a different answer altogether. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7864
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 10:03 pm: | |
I think, as has been said that we have the option to turn use Easter as a day to glorify God instead of gripping about whatever roots eggs, Easter lilies and bunnies have.
I mean I know of no one, saved or not that views Easter as satisfying or worshiping the God of fertility, although I'm sure there are some witches covens that probably do that.
In all likelihood the egg, rabbit part probably was a pagan ritual.
Now the whole mix is to remember that Jesus is our passover lamb that was slain and Easter gives us opportunity to witness this fact.
We can do that, and do, by having Easter sunrise services and other activities.
While we hold Easter egg hunts for the children, we can teach them that Jesus died for us.
What passover means to me can be seen in the shadows of the old testament when the children of Israel were passed over by the angel of death and the reality of passover is when Jesus died for us.
He is our passover lamb and thank God the death angel cannot harm us.
Today as every year my wife sponsors an Easter egg hunt for about 20 children, as well as Christmas with toys for them. Monday will probably mark the day when she starts preparing for Christmas.
She does this because that's about all these children ever can expect to get. Some are very poor families and some of their parents just do not care much what happens to them.
I saw a little girls eyes so aglow with happiness today because she was being shown some little love in an Easter egg hunt. The volunteer that held her hand was here from Louisiana and is due to fly out in the morning, but the young woman took time to volunteer to work with these kids.
I guess though the world wouldn't be complete without somebody ba humbugging both Easter and Christmas and stay all grunched up instead of looking around for something to do besides criticize.
So for all the grinches out there, happy Easter, Jesus loves you.
 River |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1732
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 10:16 pm: | |
Then they led Jesus from the house of Caiaphas to the governor's headquarters. It was early morning. They themselves did not enter the governor's headquarters, so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover. (John 18:28 ESV)
According to this verse from John, had the Passover Meal already been completed on the day of Christ's crucifixion?
Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" (John 19:14 ESV)
According to this verse, what day was Jesus crucified on? Would this day be the same day that the Passover Lamb would be slain?
Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, "Buy what we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor. (John 13:29 ESV)
How could the disciples have thought that Judas was buying something for a feast that had already happened? And if you are going to say he was last minute shopping in the middle of the feast, what Jewish merchants are selling on a Sabbath where they do no work?
Speaking of the Sabbath associated with Passover,
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work. (Leviticus 23:5-7 ESV)
How does one explain all the work associated with the capture, trial, and crucification on a Sabbath?
It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed and saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment. (Luke 23:54-56 ESV)
On what basis can you conclude that the women would disobey the command about working on the day of the Passover meal (sundown to sundown day) but be concerned about obeying the command for a weekly Sabbath? The verse makes far more sense if the Passover Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath fell on the same day and they were obeying both commands. That would agree perfectly with John's account.
Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. (John 19:31 ESV)
It was a high Sabbath because of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
The evidence of Scripture, despite the traditions of men, tells us a different story about the Last Supper. |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 444
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 10:30 pm: | |
On Easter Sunday morning at my church I will be one of
many that are raising their arms high with Praise
to JESUS the Lamb of GOD~ The Risen LORD!
His resurrection means I never have to be afraid of
death~ I will spend eternity with HIM!
All my sins forgiven by the shedding of HIS Blood~
Because~~~HE is Risen, HE is Risen,,,Indeed!!!
After services all of our family (this includes
seven little children under the age of five!)
will gather for a delicious Easter Feast!
After this the "egg hunt" and Easter baskets!
I asked my five year old Great-Grandson on Wednesday
why do we celebrate Easter? without missing a beat
he replied, "because Jesus died on a cross to save me and then came out of the grave alive!"
~mj~ |
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 286
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2012 - 9:36 am: | |
"I saw a little girls eyes so aglow with happiness today" ... and that happiness in her memories will forever be associated with Jesus, with the love she received from His followers. Our human nature craves tradition, security, familiarity. Since there are things common in nature that all cultures are familiar with (new life comming from eggs, the abundance of baby animals in the spring, circles, crosses, green leaves, the list is endless) its only common sense that the same items end up in many different belief systems representing sometimes similar things. Spring is spring after all. And GOD arranged for passover, and Jesus's death and Resurrection to happen in the spring. Associating the new life of spring with the new life of the Resurrection is simply NOT paganism, even if pagans have similar symbols and meanings.
I agree totally that bickering over these traditions is pointless. It just bothers me that somehow these innocent traditions are sometimes made out to be unchristian.
The 40 day fast of lent has NOTHING to do with the babylonians or tammuz, unless, that is, Jesus was also guilty of the same when he kept his 40 day fast. We remember Jesus, not some supposed (and likely fictitious) babylonian legend.
There may be no biblical command for a lenten fast. There is however, the example of Jesus and others that fasting has value. There is instruction on how to fast (not with show, but with private devotion) so if its true there is no command, its also true there is no biblical reason *not* to fast. Fasting supports a spirit of prayer and repentance. Fasting from favorite foods also teaches compassion for those who don't have enough to eat because of their poverty. One reason we have the rice bowl offering during lent. The cost of one skipped meal is added to the rice bowl weekly, and then the kids turn the money in at Easter for a world hunger offering.
My kids LOVED coloring eggs on holy Saturday. Easter was *almost* here ... the excitement began to build. Chocolate wasn't in the house during lent... We baked homemade bread for Easter dinner and marked the loaves with a cross. All the smells and preparation left lasting memories.
All these memories of Lent, Easter, CHristmas, and all the other lesser holidays contribute to raising CHRISTIAN children. It gives them an identity. Tangible things to remember and hold onto. Jesus is key, without belief in Jesus of course, it would be worth nothing. But the question every parent asks is "how do I raise my children to remain faithful?" Little things count for a lot. My kids have memories of St. Nicholas and Christmases, Midnight masses and the celebration of Los Posados. Lenten fish dinners and Easter baskets. First Communion dresses and Confirmation promises. None of this is "salvational" in the strict sense, but all of it contributes to a strong faith identity and desire to provide the same for their families. My kids are 24 and 19 now. They still like the traditions even though they are grown. My daughter likes to plan what she's going to celebrate with her own children. And I can't wait to play grandma.
This is part of living faith out. Not contantly bickering over doctrine and non essential traditions. I think its important to point out the place of those little traditions in passing faith through the generations.
My rant for the day.... |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 445
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2012 - 10:59 am: | |
~Marysroses~
If this is a "rant"~ I think it was "inspired"!
Since leaving adventism years ago,
Easter,holds a Special place in my heart.
I just Love your post # 296, especially the last three paragraphs~
I identify so very much with the establishing of
"Memories" for our children and grandchildren~
They help to make-up the fabric of our families!
Alas, these things to treasure are only
a generation away of being forgotten~
But, not in my family!!!
Easter Blessings to You & Yours~
~*~mj~*~ |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2539
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2012 - 11:35 am: | |
Ric; wouldn't it make sense if Jesus and His disciples were to eat the Passover early since Jesus was the Passover Lamb Himself? Wouldn't it make sense for Him to be killed around the time that the lambs were killed?
Ric; you're not arguing with me, but with Scripture. I just quoted it to show how very plain it was.
River; wouldn't it glorify God to call it Resurrection Sonday rather than Easter, because calling it Resurrection Sonday draws attention to the fact that Jesus died and rose for the sins of the whole world, but calling it Easter is what EVERYBODY does - whether they're wiccans, Christians (unfortunately), Mormons or Seventh-day Adventists? |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1734
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2012 - 4:11 pm: | |
I'm not arguing with Scripture, I'm quoting Scripture. You haven't offered anything to reply to these Scriptures.
If you celebrate a feast given by God on a different day than God specified, can you reasonably say it was the feast from God? The Passover meal was instructed to be eaten on a specific day. Eating the same foods on another day wouldn't be the Passover meal.
You have yet to offer anything in response to the Scriptures that I presented indicating that the Lord's Supper was celebrated by the NT church more often than once a year and a times other than Passover. You have made a number of claims that simply aren't supported by the Bible.
And what's with "Sonday"? |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7869
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2012 - 6:25 pm: | |
Asurprise, when I was a little boy I saw easter eggs, now I see the cross, so Easter is just fine with me. Its like Marysroses said, those childrens games along with church helped shape me to later accept Christ into my life without question.
I enjoyed my little great grandsons first Easter egg hunt today. My thoughts today are of the miracle of those two new great grandkids, now how can I be a grinch in the face of so many blessings?
Plus today the sun shined for the first week end in weeks. I got to split down the superslab at 80 miles an hour on two wheels. Just ain't no way to be an Easter grinch today. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 2064
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2012 - 7:04 pm: | |
If we are only supposed to observe days that were commanded by God, then I would expect that a person wouldn't celebrate anything else, lest they dishonor him. But wait, God didn't tell Christians to celebrate the resurrection or good friday or even Lent... Gosh, are we all committing a sin here?
Also Rick, I guess we should then change the name of every day of the week ~ after all, our days are named after mythological gods and goddesses. Gosh, maybe a whole new exclusively Christian language? I would hate to be considered a pagan (because you know, that's what all the non-Christians say about us Christians when we use pagan words...)
Goodness gracious, maybe I'll just stay in bed from now on. I just don't think I can live up to all the expectations. |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 971
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2012 - 8:18 pm: | |
Your mattress was probably made in China. The Chinese are pagans, so staying in bed probably isn't safe either.
In all seriousness, in regards to only keeping holidays God commanded to the Jews, Jesus was in Jerusalem for Hannukah ("The Feast of Dedication"), and God never command the Jews to keep Hannukah.
(Message edited by Bskillet on April 07, 2012) |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1737
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2012 - 7:00 am: | |
Not only do we need to change the names for the days of the week, we need to change some Bible references too!
Malachi 4:2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. |
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