| Author | Message | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 679 Registered: 11-2007 |
Here is a few lines from Ted N.C. Wilson's GC conference speech. "The observance of the Sabbath is not only a sign of His creatorship in the beginning but will be THE sign of God's people in the last days in contrast to those with the mark of the beast representing an attempt to keep holy a day which God has not set apart as holy." (V 11, Issue 2, Proclamation) "...representing an attempt to keep holy a day which God has not set apart as holy." I also recently linked to a sermon, from one of my facebook friends, and it had the same theme running through it. That theme is that those who leave adventism and go to a Sunday church now keep Sunday as their "holy day". Am I missing something here? Yeah, I worship every week, on Sunday, but I have never even thought of it as a holy day. Do I need to have a holy day every week? Do any of you observe a holy day each week? Should we have holy days, such as Easter? I'm a little concerned that adventists seem to be having a major hang up in an issue that is not even true to begin with. Surfy | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 937 Registered: 12-2007 |
Surfy, I think at least a part of the problem is that since SDA's DO attempt to "keep HOLY" a DAY... They assume that if we stop attending church on the Saturday "Sabbath" and instead attend church on Sunday that we are making Sunday a "Holy" day to REPLACE Saturday. They miss the whole point... that We do not "keep" ANY day as being more or less "Holy" than another. It is our personal relationship with our Lord that is important, not a 24 hour period of time, whether it be Saturday, Sunday, Wednesday or any other day of the week. We should spend "Holy" TIME with the Lord on EVERY day of the week. We are not 1 day a week Christians. What if we only communicated with and showed love to our spouses on one day a week ? | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 85 Registered: 7-2010  |
I recently had to call an Adventist pastor friend of mine on the carpet. His family and I have been close friends for decades. Of course, he thinks I'm confused and deceived. Lately his remarks have become very condescending, such as 'most well read people know that the Sabbath is the day the Bible says we should worship on." Well, of course I had to disagree with that but he is sticking to the SDA fact that it is a creation ordinance. First off, I told him that I don't regard Sunday as a holy day and that he made that assumption on his own. Then I had to let him know that I don't appreciate his condescending remarks and if we are going to talk about the Bible, religion or whatever, we will speak as equals. It's okay to disagree but don't talk down to me. He was very apologetic, saying he didn't mean to come across that way but after thinking back on some of his remarks, he said he could see how I came to my conclusion. I worship everyday and sometimes go on Sunday and Wednesday night to fellowship. I love my new life in Him and I wouldn't trade it for the world nor let anyone talk down to me about it! Thank God for the courage to lovingly let the chips fall where they may. Pat (Message edited by patallen on August 21, 2010) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 938 Registered: 12-2007 |
Pat, yes, SDA's (all that I know at least) believe that Sabbath is a "Creation ordinance". and that we are to worship on Saturday and keep it "Holy" as a remembrance of Creation week. What they dont seem to understand is that those who attend church on Sunday, while not seeing the DAY as "Holy" do see importance in having fellowship together on that day in remembrance of the ressurrection. Without Jesus gift to us offering Himself to die for OUR sins, and without His ressurection on that First day of the week ... all of "creation" would still be without a Savior. So if they choose to make the day that God "rested from all His work" of more importance than the "WORK" He did for us on the cross.... what more can be said.....? We can rejoice in Jesus our sinbearer and the giver of our gift of eternal life on any and every day INCLUDING "Sabbath" Personally I am not trying to "replace" the Sabbath as a day of worship, because EVERY day is my day of worship. I have just changed the day that I meet together with fellow believers. If Adventists would teach Love to God and to their fellow men instead of trying to show Love to God BY "keeping" a DAY and making IT into a Holy "idol" maybe they would not have so many leaving. | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 159 Registered: 5-2009 |
Many churches (Reformed mostly) adhere to the Westminster Confession of Faith, which states: VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37] VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39] The fact that in never in all my life have I met a Christian who "keeps" Sunday like Adventists "keep" Saturday, makes me believe that this sort of official belief is not a source of bondage like it is for an SDA or how it could be for a former-SDA. I was having the same conversation with my husband today about how we cringe when Christians refer to the 10 commandments. It sounds differently to us than it does to them. I don't know how it sounds to them, but it certainly can't be how it sounds to me....I would love some of the never-beens to enlighten me. (Message edited by cloudwatcher on August 21, 2010) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2240 Registered: 5-2007  |
The question of Sunday being a Christians day of "Sabbath" worship is largely misunderstood even in the evangelical world. Once, I heard a preacher say that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. When I asked for biblical support for this view he became upset with me and said he didn't have time to respond to my request. Of course, I did say I read scripture on this topic and couldn't find any such verses, so I guess he knew he was in trouble. Since the weekly Sabbath was instituted as a day of rest, with no reference it being a day of worship, but with direct reference to the Hebrew people's need for rest as a consiquence of sin in their lives, it is clear that there was no need for rest prior to the entry of sin. Since God declared it holy and nothing is holy apart from being indwelt by God, the Sabbath is a clear foreshadowing of Jesus Christ. Only our Savior can give us true rest from sin. Since he died on the cross, our focus is on him and not the day. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on August 21, 2010) | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 160 Registered: 5-2009 |
Here's a statement from Beth Moore that, because of my SDA baggage, made me cringe: from the Breaking Free study--- "You see, one vital way we can look at the Ten Commandments is as a plan for staying out of slavery. ... An ancient boundary stone was similar to a fence. It served as a visual reminder of what belonged to the landowner and what was beyond the legal limits. It reminded people when they were crossing the line." "God's commands are the ultimate ancient boundary stones--not the ten good thoughts for the day. He is the Lord our God and His Word is eternal, which means it applies to every generation. The Ten Commandments represent an ancient boundary store we are not free to move around to fit our lifestyles." I love Beth Moore and I love her teaching, but I KNOW all too well where this line of thinking can lead. Am I missing something here? How does this read to a never-been? | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 334 Registered: 6-2008 |
Often, in trying to clarify my thoughts, I write essays. One of these was an exploration of why the commandments and all the other "laws" were given to Israel, at that time and place, and why it is important to understand it. In short, here's what I concluded: Israel had just been rescued from Egypt, after more than 400 years of slavery as a people. They knew nothing about self-government, regular rest periods, health principles, and the worship of the true God. He had to teach them all this from scratch! They needed specific, highly detailed rules! He wanted them to know Him and only Him as their new Master. He wanted them to focus on His character and provisions 24/7. And all of the details of the Mosaic Covenant were intended to reveal this. It brought them to a rudimentary knowledge of Him, even though the evidence shows they rebelled often because they just didn't get it! They still had a slave mentality! And then Jesus was born and the paradigm shifted once again. He was what all that previous set of symbolism and ritual was all about, but once again, Israel refused to see the "big picture." They were so entrenched in the rules and rituals they missed the whole point--the coming Savior! And that is still the problem with Adventists and anyone else teaching the importance of "Commandment-keeping." It explains the SDA emphasis on the "Health Message," Sabbath rules, tithe-paying, church structure, etc. They have totally missed the point! Only when they see that it is all about Jesus and His overwhelming, encompassing love will they be able to give all that up, give themselves totally over to God, and become true Christians! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3350 Registered: 10-2004  |
Cloudwatcher, The quote from Beth Moore says, "one vital way we can look at the Ten Commandments is as a plan for staying out of slavery." Wow. That is completely opposite of what Paul says in Galatians 4:21-5:1! He says that we have to "cast out" the Ten Commandments in order to stay out of slavery. Jeremy | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 335 Registered: 6-2008 |
Hebrews 4 is so clear! We do indeed still have a Sabbath but our "sabbath" is not a day. It is Jesus Himself!!! Israel had the seventh-day Sabbath, but they "never entered true rest" because Jesus had not yet come. And modern people won't, either, as long as it's about a day--any day--instead of Jesus! | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 889 Registered: 2-2008  |
I still CRINGE also every time Christian's go to the 10C's as a "boundary" or "guide" for living. A few years ago I went through a study on the tabernacle. You may have seen this study book at your local Family Christian store. The one thing that really impacted me after I finished that study is that as an Israelite worshipped God, he would offer a sacrifice. A sacrifice was part of his worship... recognizing his sin, having repentance and coming to God. Sacrifices were offered every day!! They worshipped God every day. The point of sabbath was "resting". This is why the author in Heb. 4 compared the rest we have when we enter into God's rest with the rest God had when He finished creation. He rested from His works and we rest from our works. In fact, worshipping in synagogues didn't exist until Daniel's time (around 600BC). Skeeter... when I read your post and you wrote, "Without Jesus gift to us offering Himself to die for OUR sins, and without His ressurection on that First day of the week ... all of "creation" would still be without a Savior." it reminded me of the day I told my mom we had left the sda church. One of her questions that day was "What's so important about the first day of the week anyway."  That statement says it all. vivian | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6570 Registered: 9-2006  |
What the statement reads to me, is an element of pride of the 'Greater than' hypocrites spewling over the lessor than Sunday keeper. That pride ignites the fires of hell, not worship. The impression I come away with from 38 years of being churched in evangelicalism is that of looking back to the old testament from the forword side of the cross, therefore the ten commandments are not normal meat for study, that is too say, that old testament rules are not dwelt on, nor looked to for service to God. There are many important lessons to be learned from the Old Testament, many messages to be had in part or whole of the Old Testament scripture, it completes the whole word of God to the evangelical. Evangelicals do not become alarmed when lesson study is given from any part of the old Testament and mention of the Ten Commandments. Many Evangelicals do view Sunday as a special day, but not how Adventist view Saturday as a day, at least few do, but I know some that do. What you all view as important, and talk about regularly simply does not exist in the mind of the most evangelicals as having substance enough for discussion, because they (Evangelicals) have a different mind set. You came out of Adventism, yet you are still a product of Adventism, and I see that reflected in you all the time. I don't know Beth Moore, I listened too her once about five minutes and lost interest. But...I would venture to say that the former Adventist listener probably still missed the point of her teaching due to that being a product of Adventism, just from evidence I have seen in the past. Conversely, Adventist looks forward to the cross from a position of the Old Testament, and most of their elements of study is from the old Testament, observation of the Ten Commandments, sabbath keeping and so fourth. For example a surveyor might decide to build a highway from Michigan to California. His glass is always pointing towards California, his beginning place is in Michigan, and his final destination is California, he cannot get there from Kansas. So in order to understand how most of the evangelicals look at it, consider the old saying, you cannot get there from here. The Evangelical is positioned on the acts side of the cross, while the Adventist is positioned on the old testament side of the cross. He can never reach the forward side of the cross, because is is impossible to reverse time. From the Acts side of the cross, one must look back to the old testament, From the last book of the Old Testament side of the cross, one must look forward in time, this is impossible, because it already happened. The problem of salvation has been solved, no matter how many Sabbaths you keep. Now I'm going to take my wife to dinner. River, a dang sure never been, never even neer been, and a don't intend to be been.  | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 738 Registered: 7-2000 |
River wrote: Evangelicals do not become alarmed when lesson study is given from any part of the old Testament and mention of the Ten Commandments. Me: That's been my experience too. They really don't see what all the fuss is about and can't understand why our hackles go up at the mention of the Ten Commandments. They also don't view Sunday worship as merely transferring the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday and keeping all of the rest of the baggage of 'preparing for the sabbath', 'not working on the sabbath', 'guilt for breaking manmade rules for the sabbath'---these concepts are just unknown to most of them. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 943 Registered: 12-2007 |
Well, on THIS first day of the week..... I have to get myself off the computer and wake up 3 Grandkids that spent the night, get them some breakfast and get them ready to take to church, then we are going into town and have lunch and some last minute school shopping . :-) Have a great day everyone ! :-) Francie | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2010 |
I once pointed out to my SDA friend that we worship God in spirit and in truth and referenced to where Jesus says those exact words in John 4:24, indicating we no longer have to go to Jerusalem to worship. My friend came back with "That would mean we could worship God any day of the week!" I thought, DUH! Not just any day, but everyday, that's fulfilling the 1st Commandment Jesus gave us in the Law of Love. (Matthew 22:37) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6572 Registered: 9-2006 |
On the back side of the cross is Adam, on the front side of the cross is revelations. From the Adam side of the cross, the blood stains that are there cannot be seen, you are standing in the shadow of the cross. The former has advanced to the Revelations side of the cross and seen the blood stains. His knees go weak, and he falls down in worship of the one that left that blood stained cross. The former calls back to his friends and loved ones, and says, "I see the blood! I see the blood! Oh, thank you Jesus! Thank you!" Come and see! The Adventist calls back, “No, come back, the Sabbath is here.” The former calls back to his loved ones, “Oh please, it is just a few steps, then you will see the blood!” Most of the Adventist decline the invitation, but a very few take those few hesitant steps, until the blood is revealed, and they say, “Oh my word! I see it! I see it!” And he begins to rejoice also. That is sort of what has happened here. Dljc, the gift of being able to see through two sets of eyes is gift and a privilege that few evangelicals will ever experience in their lifetime. What a humbling experience. River | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 336 Registered: 6-2008 |
I have heard from friends and relatives who have lived or are living in the southern and southeastern states that that region is called the "Bible Belt" largely because they do tend to look on Sunday as a "Christian Sabbath" and that lawn mowing, car washing, etc. are frowned upon, though not legally forbidden. I think with some Christians Sunday really is perceived as a holy day. Still, the observance of Sunday is not like SDA observance of the Sabbath. For one thing, as far as I know, none of them observe the sunset-to-sunset time frame. And I don't think they are hesitant to cook their food on Sunday. Much of the "observance" seems to focus on activities that bring the family together: church, a ballgame in the park, etc. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6573 Registered: 9-2006 |
Bible belt Origin: 1926 As transportation improved and the United States became more specialized by region in the later nineteenth century, we began to belt the country, labeling the different parts according to their products. There is a reference to a wheat belt (in northern Ohio) as early as 1863. The first oil belt, running from New York to Kentucky, was mentioned in 1865. We also spoke of the great cotton belt of the South in 1871, the fruit belt of the Michigan peninsula in 1874, a gold belt in northern Georgia in 1879, the Midwestern corn belt and the California redwood belt in 1882, the "grain-belt of the Pacific slope" in 1886, the orange belt of Florida in 1889, the "Chautauqua grape-belt...about two or three miles wide lying upon Lake Erie" in 1897, and an iron belt in Alabama in 1902. Following this pattern, when railroads standardized time across the continent, what we now call time zones were referred to as time belts (1894). And imaginative Americans remarked on other kinds of belts: the fever belt of the Southern states (1893), and the grim lynching belt of the South, where lynchings of African Americans were all too common around the turn of the century (1900). But the belt that hit hardest in the American consciousness was the Bible Belt, a term invented in the 1920s by H. L. Mencken. He wrote in the American Mercury for February 1926 of a Jackson, Mississippi, newspaper "in the heart of the Bible and Lynching Belt." The Baltimore satirist was not intending kindness when he applied this label to the middle and southern parts of the country that took the Bible literally and seriously. Later uses of the term have been more or less positive, depending on the writer's attitude toward fundamentalist Christianity. New belts have emerged with Americans' changing perceptions of themselves. The name sunbelt, used for the southern states from coast to coast, along with their growing populations, was a 1967 invention of political writer Kevin Phillips. Before long, a name was coined for its opposite, the older states of the East and upper Midwest where heavy industry, especially steel, was in decline: rust belt (1985). Resource, Ask.com. n. Those sections of the United States, especially in the South and Midwest, where Protestant fundamentalism is widely practiced. | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 337 Registered: 6-2008 |
Amazing what a body can learn on FAF Forum! Thanks, River, for the interesting little history lesson. In my rigid SDA family-of-origin, the term "belt" meant something made of heavy leather for the secondary purpose of holding up pants and for the primary purpose of leaving kids black and blue from head to foot even for minor or unintentional offenses. (No Bible Belt there!) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2095 Registered: 4-2000  |
It is with deep sadness whenever I learn of yet another new former Adventist who sits at home every Sunday because he can't find an antinomian church to belong to or worship in. Indeed, the ethics of the OT law are the same as those of the NT gospel. It is important to remember that Jesus NEVER changed nor modified any moral laws. Instead, He carefully explained and extolled them. The weekly, festal Sabbath NEVER was a moral law--not even for the Jews. Rather, it was a picture or shadow pointing to Jesus, the true Sabbath Rest (Matt. 11:28-30). (http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-225.htm) Resting in Him, Dennis Fischer |
