| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1440 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have been trying to understand why I have had such difficulty in moving on from Adventism. When I scanned the entire pattern of seeking, pondering, learning, running into confusions and so on. I asked myself what is my main motive? It boiled down to this. Assurance. That in of itself is probably responsible for the protracted process I have been going through. I speak in terms of commonality, I do not consider this realization unique to myself alone. Though, admittedly, I may be having more difficulty than others, completing the transition out of adventism. When I realized that the legalism , weariness and burnout of Adventism was not finding resolution, I sought to find out if there was another way to find peace with God. That led me to search out this forum. Then with each new discovery, I found myself unsure, uncertain and unassured if I was saved. Afterall, I was walking away from the law. A system of belief that had given me some assurance I was at least on the right path to make Peace with God. But after dismantling my SDA faith system, I had lost sight of any path at all. I have attempted to find another church, but have failed to establish any basis for assurance in the "right" church. No discernable path, no measure of assurance that Church A, B or C was any more right than church C, B or A. It occurs to me that here too, I am looking for assurance in the wrong places. Is it in my ability to figure it out, doctrinal accuracy, ability to interpret scripture and navigate debates , opinions and spins? No, it's not found there. Is it in the right church? Yes , I know about the orthodoxy core beliefs. But what makes a church more blessed than the other right believing church? Can I be assured , this is where God wants me? No , I did not find assurance in picking a church. So, this is where my prayers go. Where is my assurance? I believe it is in Christ alone. He is the only constant. When I was reading for the hundreth time, those passages that speak to law vs grace. I kept coming across reminders, it is about faith in Christ. If Christ is the focus, perhaps knowing this is the path of assurance. This may explain why so many people seem to be at peace in all these churches. They are looking at Christ, not the building, not the Pastor, not their ability to figure out theology. They are holding onto Christ alone. I find myself trying to answer things in scripture that circle me back to re-asking all the law questions. Honest confusions. Things like, "we establish the law" "keep my commandemnts" "keep the commandments of God" I cannot with assurance defend against circular reasoning back into law. All in the NT. I read passages that say live by The Spirit , not the Letter, but then fail to define with assurance what that actually means in practice. If by The Spirit we end up keeping the law, then does it mean in effect literally to the letter(Sabbath), or simply in the key of Love. I can read a passage that says the dividing wall has been removed , there is no difference between Jew or Greek. I want to take that as clearly saying the OC law system is gone, and no longer our mode of assurance. It is pivotal that we are not under the letter of law,the Sabbath of the 7th day. It jumps out to me that the law system was refuted by Paul, that the first century church did not teach it or the Sabbath with all it's rules. Even the Apostles agreed in Acts, it was not required to practice the law system of the Jewish faith. So, even though I gather these logic fragments together trying to establish a peace about it, I realize , I need anchor points of conviction so that my assurance in Christ alone is not undermined by legal guilt trips or confusing doubts. I wonder if scripture has been lost. That many of these debates were discussed and recorded in those days, but the books were supressed or lost. That gets into canonical debates. Another mind numbing adventure. I just find it stunning that these core bedrock theological concerns were not settled in scripture. This is why we attempt to fill in the gaps by comprehending what we do have in scripture. The comprehension is frought with subjective reasonings and often bent to support agendas. I can almost predict the slant by knowing what faith system writes the article. This then brings resorting to "Authority" rulings. Ok, .... who has authority? How do you prove that? Finally, it all leads me back to Christ alone. That may explain why all these unknowns are in scriptures. Because Christ stands in the gap. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2465 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; you're mistaken in that you seem to be trying to live under BOTH covenants at the same time. You seem to think you need to do something to help save yourself. You don't seem to realize that a person can actually get "saved" before Jesus comes back. SDAs teach that no one will know if they're "saved" before Jesus comes back. Since the Bible says to believers: "YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED" (Ephesians 2:8), WHO HAS SAVED US (2nd Timothy 1:9). "HE SAVED US" (Titus 3:5), that PROVES that a person is actually saved when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ! SDAs and other cults have it exactly backward. SDAs feel they cannot be saved "until they push out their sins by Jesus' strength." By contrast, Christians are SAVED when they accept Jesus and THEN the Holy Spirit changes their lives. You seem to feel if you cannot monitor the Holy Spirit's activities and see a constant progression, that you're lost. We're not saved by what the Holy Spirit does in us. We're saved the moment we accept Jesus. All those commands to "obey" and such are simply to Christian (WHO HAVE BEEN SAVED) to "walk in the Spirit" meaning ACT like Christians, not to be saved, but because they ARE saved! The "law of death" was established to CONDEMN us - to show us that we cannot DO anything! And God DID preserve His Word. It has everything that we need! (Message edited by Asurprise on March 10, 2012) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1441 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, Please don't wipe away the effort of what I was trying to express. In fact , I am trying to move away from my own efforts to establish or build assurance that I am saved, and instead realizing it is and always has been about Christ alone. I will confess that I still struggle with mixed scriptures that cause confusion in my understanding. I am reading currently in the topic of assured salvation in hopes to continue to move in the right direction in grasping these truths. But I am also trying to hold these truths in tension with outher passages and attempting to understand how they interact so as to coexist together as truths. If they contradict, then I assume that it is my partial understanding or lack of insight that is causing it. The law brought us to Christ. Christ said without Him , we cannot do anything. Yes , I agree, God's word was indeed preserved. But I also wonder how much valid teachings on some of these topics were lost from the early church records. I am not suggesting getting into the lost books of the Bible, Gnostic readings as so on. Though I have read some of the materials from the early church. Mostly in the frame of historical contexts. The Bible says that God's Spirit will guide us into truth and understanding. I believe that, but I also think, (possibly a SDA attitude), that my recieving of understandings is conditional. That is a circular path back to introspection and works. In other words, am I acting well enough for God to grant me further light? Here is another example of confusing: Matthew 7: 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. J: If this is a truth. Define the parameters? This sort of runs cross current to once and for all "saved" thinking. ............ 19...Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. J: Conditional again. .............. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. J: Conditional : 'only the one who does God's will'. Pretty important then to know exactly what God's will is, specifically. ............. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ J: I understand that this is primarily talking about false prophets and diciples. The question then becomes, what makes them false? False teachings, beliefs, understandings. Making assumptions that lead to carelessness? Failing to bear proper (right kind of ) fruits? Jesus might say, 'I never knew you'. Then I ask, why? Because I made a mistake? ignored the wrong passages? Was not good enough, fell one too many times? My fruit was less than perfect or not enough? I allowed myself to be decieved? Lack of faith? You see these people are shocked, because they were religious, they did many wonderful works, casting out demons, healing and so on. In other words, they assumed their works and fruits were approved since they were being religious and apparntly had a power to do these things. They took it as endorsement by the evidence of the ability. They held a faith that turned out to be a false foundation even though they were doing it in Christ's name. What was the failsafe? What could have prevented it. Then I go back to vs 21, "only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" So we are back to defining what God's specific will is. This then goes in a couple directions. God (The Father) said (of Jesus) to us, "listen to Him" but also It sends me back to Revelation. Who keep the faith of Jesus and the commandments (plural) of God. My hesitation is created by the implication of Matthew 7 that people got careless or made assumptions and it cost them dearly. I am not sure they are lost, but to say, 'depart from me' , sure sounds like Christ might mean separation from God , which (many times suggested on the forum before) defines Hell. I am not so much interested in what I can get away with and still be saved, but rather what is the essential requirement that will prevent finding oneself in the Matthew 7 predicament? Again, my only hope , and the constant I am grasping is Christ redeems us. So to merge the truths : YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED" (Ephesians 2:8), WHO HAS SAVED US (2nd Timothy 1:9). "HE SAVED US" (Titus 3:5) I find myself confused with the Matthew 7 scenario among others. How do you rectify this? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2466 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; I'm not trying to scold you or anything. I'm simply trying to be emphatic. The key to what Jesus will say: "I never knew you," is in the words: "I never knew you." How does Jesus know us? By the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and the Holy Spirit indwells a person when they get saved. And He said he'd never leave us or forsake us. And notice, He doesn't say: "I knew you and forgot you." | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1846 Registered: 12-2007  |
Jim, when you said : "Where is my assurance? I believe it is in Christ alone. He is the only constant. When I was reading for the hundreth time, those passages that speak to law vs grace. I kept coming across reminders, it is about faith in Christ. If Christ is the focus, perhaps knowing this is the path of assurance. This may explain why so many people seem to be at peace in all these churches. They are looking at Christ, not the building, not the Pastor, not their ability to figure out theology. They are holding onto Christ alone. " I think you have hit the nail on the head right there  Our "assurance" is in "CHRIST ALONE". It is in Christ ALONE that we will find peace, comfort, assurance, all those things that we desperately need. Finding a stick church to share in fellowship with other Christians is great, but the most important "fellowship" is the personal relationship between ourselves and Jesus. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13497 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, I understand what you are saying. You have to decide to believe Jesus and to trust that He is, indeed, The Way. When you can trust Him with your need to analyze and simply give up your right to analyze all possible meanings of any given passage and instead trust that God gave you the actual words He wants you to read IN CONTEXT, and that you trust Him and even trust Him with your confusion and doubts instead of trying to resolve them...you will begin to "see". You have to trust Him with your "right" to "see"...you have to give it up to Him. When you can trust Him in the moments of confusion and give up your right to understand and instead KNOW that HE will not fail and cannot lie, you will find Scripture beginning to make sense. Jim, I'm going to give you an "assignment". Get a notebook and literally copy the book of John into it. Spend a bit of time every day...not so much you get burdened, but enough so that you grapple, letter-by-letter, with several verses a day. Ask God to show you what He wants you to know in those words. The great thing about this assignment is that you have to notice every preposition, verb tense, and comma--every transitional word. You have to see how the words and ideas are connected to each other. You'll be amazed at what begins to come into focus. It won't be huge and overwhelming all at once, but every day you'll find this exercise to be refreshing, relaxing, and comforting in ways that defy words. Just give it a try and relax with it. Give up your need to KNOW!!!! Just ask God to help you know and see what He knows you need to see, and be content just to shape each word, letter by letter, as you copy this amazing gospel over the next weeks. Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1847 Registered: 12-2007 |
Great "assignment" Colleen. I know it was assigned to Jim, but as a fellow 'classmate' I would like to do the assignment also. I really need to do something calming right now. In laws (SDA MIL)were here for 4 days and 3 nights and it was a very trying, and tiring time. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1442 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good Morning Asurprise, Quote: How does Jesus know us? By the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and the Holy Spirit indwells a person when they get saved. J: Obviously , everything depends upon recieving God in The Holy Spirit. We are sealed. Perhaps it is in my character type, but when I suspect or believe I am recieving God's Spirit, it is in a still small voice. I think this is out of His mercy towards me. Anything greater would likely crush me. People want to mark a significant event to confirm being saved. Often by a sudden or marked awareness, a raptured feeling and so on. For me, the most genuine moments are crying in empathy for a suffering child, or when someone loses a loved one. I do not have to work it up, it wells up. Is that simply human emotion or a gift from God that I sense the depth of the tragedy? In other times, I have a wave of serenity in moments of gratitude, in a single thought , "this is good". It might be when my grand daughter lays her head on my shoulder or climbs into my lap to read a book. It could be a night when I am not in pain. These are, I believe, all from God's Spirit, granting me the capacity to acknowledge His love in the unspoken things. Can I prove to you that I am saved? No. I can't. I still get lost in conditional confusions. I often interpret circumstances in my life as consequential to my failings and faults, past and present. Bad things happen, but sprinkled here and there, good things happen too. I do not know whay God allows or causes hardships to continue. But faith is all about grasping the Hope that brings joy even in the midst of bad situations. Is this from God, or are we fooling ourselves? This is why I do not relate as well as some do about "being saved". Because it is subjective and unseen. I have only what I have and I cherish those moments of God's soft presence. It is all I have, and perhaps all I can recieve right now. I have prayed many times to be saved. Conditional ? Absolute ? I do not know. I am trying to find peace in simply trusting Him. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1443 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good Morning Colleen, I will do as you have suggested. Something that I have noted. I find that I have a tendancy to avoid the Gospels because they are mixed with instructions that are applicable to the OC , but also plausibly to the NC. I get confused. Most of my concentration has trended towards Paul's writings. I cherish Isaiah and Jerimiah, Psalms and Proverbs, but even there, I wonder what promises are for then, and which may be claimed for today. Dispensational concepts create confusions. I look for constants. Thank You Colleen. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9679 Registered: 3-2004  |
And Jim, don't forget to ask God to have the Holy Spirit teach you what He wants you to know. He did for me 8 years ago. I will be praying for you. Diana | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2469 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; All the first century Christians had horrible lives, and died horrible deaths yet they were saved. How good or bad life is, has nothing to do with whether someone is saved or not. The rain falls both on the just and on the unjust. Jim; here are a few questions. 1. Is salvation a free gift or not? 2. Is salvation all of Christ and none of you, or not? 3. What can the law do for a sinner? (Can the law do anything?) Trust in the Lord. He's not going to say "no" when you ask Him for salvation. | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2004 |
...also, give yourself time. You didn't build up the "adventist mindset" overnight. And remember that your feelings are not in charge of truth. I don't "feel" saved constantly, but I know that is because of 40+ years of indoctrination that I cannot "KNOW" if I am saved -and NOT because I haven't been saved. I am learning to take those thoughts captive to the truth - Jesus. Adventism tries to have an answer for everything...and it's hard to let go of that...and as others have said, trust that what Jesus said ("whosoever believes in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life), he meant. Even for you. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2472 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; read that article that Marcell put in the Member's section in the thread titled: "Just had to share this..." That'll help you see that we're saved entirely and only by Jesus' Atonement, no matter where we are in the Christian life..... Remember Jim; the New Covenant started at Jesus' DEATH, and that happened at the close of the gospels - at the close of Jesus' earthly life... (I wanted to remind you of that because you said that the gospels confuse you.) "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death..." Hebrews 9:15 "For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives." Hebrews 9:16,17 |
