| Author |
Message |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1195
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 3:36 pm: |     |
Thanks Jeremy.
Phil is my pastor. We had a former Adventist group meet in his living room for around 8 months on a weekly basis. Dana, who posted earlier was one of those present. To the best of my knowledge we never really talked about the trinity or Jesus' deity. Phil would not have been fully aware. We mainly covered what Christ's death and resurrection meant. We barely got through the first 3 chapters of Galatians before the group disbanded. We were all in the initial stages of transitioning out of Adventism and shared those struggles.
I believe Phil probably learned much over this weekend about Adventism that he hadn't known previously.
It really is difficult for never-been SDA's to fully understand Adventism ... And it is also difficult for transitioning SDA's to fully get a Biblical worldview for quite some time.
I find that never been SDA's do best with simple explanations of Adventism or hearing the pain of transition. To break down SDA doctrine into simple terms is hard because of the twisted deception. Phil on the other hand is quite good at understanding the complexities.
I will see how I can share what you are speaking of.
Thanks,
Carolyn |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 622
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 8:07 pm: | |
Hey, Carolyn, good to "see" you :D
Did you make it to FAF this year? One of these years, we'll have to coordinate and get there @ the same time!
Dana |
Free2dance
Registered user
Username: Free2dance
Post Number: 535
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 9:06 am: | |
I was there Jeremy, and I believe you are talking about his first talk on Friday morning? He had one hour to present a WHOLE lot of information. He had a wonderful outline that went with it and he sorta ran through it all as fast as he could and then camped on his points at the end.
There were a couple times where he asked questions of the audience and no one seemed to want to speak up. You are right that Colleen spoke up on a few issues. It was tough capturing it all on the live streaming because you can't hear what the audience is saying.
I also noticed that he didn't seem completely clear on some points but I loved that he was not teaching from a point of claiming to know it all. He was inquiring and the audience didn't always follow through on answering him. I can't fault him for that. Nor can I fault the audience for being 100% clear on the issues since many of them are still unpacking a lot of false doctrine. I wasn't worried because we had all weekend to talk to him and let him know more. However, coming from the perspective of watching it online, I'm sure it was a bit frustrating.
Yesterday at lunch he spent his time sitting at a very large table full of former Adventists asking questions and learning more. He was so interesting and SO kind. They all had their Bibles open and he was able to share truth with them. I wish I could have been at that table, I was following my two-year-old up and down the stairs. I know there are people from this forum who were there though so hopefully they could let you know if the Trinity ever came up. He definitely has a tender heart for formers. At one point during the weekend he got choked up talking about how sad it makes him that we didn't know what Jesus did for us.
I agree with you that the issue of the Trinity in Adventism should be exposed further. I think we will spend the rest of our lives exposing and discovering things about that system. Perhaps an article on the Trinity is needed. You might inquire about being a guest blogger for the website or something? Perhaps you could do a series?
Phil has a heart that wants to learn and help, that is certain. It was wonderful meeting him this weekend!
Carolyn, I found out that the first book Carel mentioned during his testimony,"Choosing your Faith" by Mark Mittleberg was written by Phil's brother-in-law!! How awesome!
- Nikki |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 9646
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 10:47 am: | |
This morning I was reading the book of Mark. It struck me, like a bolt of lightening, when I read of Jesus baptism. Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down on Him, and the Father spoke for heaven. Wow, I told myself, this is the Trinity. I had known that but it really struck me this morning.
Diana |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3872
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 1:17 pm: | |
Nikki,
Yes, I was referring to his first talk on Friday morning.
I understand that, as you say, he "was not teaching from a point of claiming to know it all." And I appreciate very much his willingness to learn more about Adventism.
My main concern is simply that current/questioning/transitioning/former Adventists have a very important need to know that what they were taught in Adventism was not the Trinity. And there is an important, unique need for them to be taught the true doctrine of the Trinity, with ample emphasis on monotheism (which is where we were taught wrongly by Adventism). Instead, as River said, it almost seems sometimes like there is an avoidance of some of these issues, unfortunately.
It is also very important for the never-been-SDA Christian Pastors and others to know what Adventism teaches about the Trinity, so that they are aware of how deep the problems are in Adventism and so that they can help those who are in Adventism, or coming out of it.
Jeremy |
Free2dance
Registered user
Username: Free2dance
Post Number: 540
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 1:48 pm: | |
I think you are right about this issue needing more exposure somehow. I think it is awesome that God has put that on your heart. I know I would like to learn more about it. I have not read your commentary yet but have heard wonderful things about it from Colleen. When I get done with writing commentaries this week I want to take a look at your work. I have been wanting to for some time and have just had so many other things in front of me.
The bottom line really is about what we do with Jesus-- with GOD. The biggest problem with Adventism truly is that they have a created god and not YAHWEH. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13421
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 1:51 pm: | |
Jeremy, I agree with you. In fact, we did spend time with Phil on the phone beforehand and talked about the SDA "trinity", identifying it as a tritheism. In all fairness, I'm frustrated that it's so hard to make Christians "see" the way the SDAs view the three persons as different from the classic view—yet I understand that Christians without Adventism in their backgrounds take a while to begin to understand because their own definitions are different from SDAs, and our words don't seem all that "off" when we try to explain . Nevertheless, we persevere.
I got a wonderful summary statement this morning from Gabriel whose forum name is "Jackob". He said, "If God is really One Being, then Satan could never have thought he could be included into the counsel of God as Jesus was."
This observation summarizes, to me, the reality that the SDAs objections that they do believe God is One is actually a lie. They believe He is "one" because they know that's the truth, but they assign a private interpretation to that "ONE" and do not reveal their interpretation.
Their arguments that Lucifer could have ever thought to be in a position of honor like Jesus make absolutely no sense if they really believe God is One.
They do not believe God is One Being. They believe He is three beings who act as one. That is tritheism, and it is heresy.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3873
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 3:05 pm: | |
Colleen, thanks for adding more details to this discussion. I agree that it is frustrating sometimes trying to get never-beens to see the deception for what it truly is.
Yes, I've always thought that the whole Lucifer/Jesus/God thing proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that EGW (and Adventism today which still affirms these writings) does not teach monotheism.
Even if he she was not teaching that Jesus was exalted to something that he was not previously (which is what Adventism originally taught, of course), as Adventists like to claim today, she was still saying that Satan was jealous of "God" honoring and "favoring" and "consulting" with Jesus--a second god--over himself.
As you and Gabriel point, that would be impossible within the context of monotheism.
Jeremy |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 4:46 pm: | |
Hi Dana,
I would love to sit down with you and catch up!!!!
No, I didn't make it this year. But would love to coordinate sometime in the future!!!
Remember joking and stressing during our "bunker" days? Everytime I watch Hogan's Heroes I think of our talks in the
"bunker".
Great ro see you here.
Your friend,
Carolyn |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1197
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 4:50 pm: | |
Nikki,
Wow, that was a very cool connection with the book and Phil's brother-in-law. Thanks for sharing.
Carolyn |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1198
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 6:11 pm: | |
Colleen and Jeremy,
My hope is that you will not interpret what I'm about to write as a negative or a defense of Phil and Never-been SDA's.
When I finally understood the "trinity" as Biblically described and understood - it was reading this forum. I remember sitting at my computer screen and breaking down in tears. I remember it clearly. I had my Bible out looking up texts that were suggested and reading the chapters before and after that were listed in a particular thread. I was determined not to be deceived by people taking scripture out of context or twisting it. I prayed that God would reveal truth to me as I studied those texts. The light bulb turned on and I was a puddle of tears.
That spiritual dawning was the work of the Holy Spirit. It wasn't a mental understanding - it was deep and convicting.
I wonder if that is not what Never-been SDA's need, too. A Holy Spirit "dawning" of what Adventism really is and how it treats the trinity.
Nikki mentioned above that Phil at one point during the weekend was in tears at the pain formers experience and that they have missed Jesus in their Adventist background. To me that is Holy Spirit compassion and understanding.
I wonder if we need to pray that the veil that keeps never-been SDA's from understanding Adventism - would be lifted. That the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth of Adventism in whatever means necessary. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned by a Holy Spirit filled believer. Possibly the hideous deceptiveness of Adventist doctrine needs to also be spiritually discerned by Christians through the work of the Holy Spirit. That is the way I am going to pray in the future.
Just some thoughts,
Carolyn |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7751
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 9:18 pm: | |
I believe God will touch whose ever heart he chooses to have compassion for SDA's.
But to think the whole evangelical world should stop what they are doing and realize what adventism is, is just wrong.
The never beens got JW's, Mormans, Moonies, Muslems, budda, new age, and about a thousand others, all vying for a piece of the pie.
What we got is a fast train in a fast moving world, the Adventist and the former Adventist stand by the station and the train don't stop and all the people aboard her see is a blip out the window as the train speeds through.
Well...maybe God calls for a heavy mover,to stop and get a load and follow the fast train at a slower pace contoured to haul that kind of freight.
Adventism is such a closed loop that nobody is even aware that they are around, they pretty much wallow in their own mudhole.
I mean we ain't exactly invited for potlucks out here.
I mean, I am going on about my seventh year of reaching out, and I've been treated like crap by some formers, looked at like I got a hole in the head by evangelicals and told my by my own brother that he didn't want to hear about Adventist or former Adventist and when I tell you I feel alone, somebody pipes up and tell's me I ought to value my wife just because I said I had to take communion with you by myself.
Now tell me, how many are going to be falling all over themselves for the job?
River |
Truman
Registered user
Username: Truman
Post Number: 79
Registered: 1-2012
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 9:44 pm: | |
Well...I'm glad you were diplomatic and said they wallow in their own "mudhole."
You're right though; for the most part, evangelical pastors' time would be better spent studying and sharing the true gospel, rather than trying to learn all the bizarre teachings of "prophet"-led sects. Otherwise, people like you will keep asking them, "How's your 'sects' life?"  |
Free2dance
Registered user
Username: Free2dance
Post Number: 542
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 11:49 pm: | |
Carolyn,
I think that is profound. I will join you in that prayer.
Every soul counts. I don't care what the size of their cult is or how atheist they may be. And I am not going to debate whether reaching Adventists is a waist of time for anyone because Jesus is clear that He goes for every single lost sheep. We are all called to different ministries and it's a good thing because there are a a lot of people all over the world with different needs. But the Body of Christ is large enough to love and tend to all that God calls them to. It is clear that our Jesus cares about Adventists, even if their are those who feel as though they are "too small a group" to worry about (I'll never forget the first time I heard that).
Our call is to contend and we do that by sharing the true gospel. But it is also to have nothing to do with false brothers and to guard the sheep from wolves. This command cannot be obeyed if Christianity cannot see who these false brothers are. I will join you in praying that the Lord would reveal them and that pastors would take seriously the call to guard their sheep.
River, the way God has moved in your heart to be available to formers is wonderful. And it's been clear to me that at times your interaction with formers is also pretty frustrating for you. There is a reason the bible tells us to bare with one another. God knew it wouldn't always be easy.
The concern I have is not that more pastors would come and tend to formers, but that they would do their job and guard their own flock. I think this is the desire of all pastors, but they must be able to recognize a wolf to know when he is there. Carolyn's points are spot on in my opinion. I will be praying for them to see as well.
Nikki |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13425
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 12:19 am: | |
Carolyn, I agree. I also pray that the truth about Adventism will be revealed to Christians. As Nikki said, one of the great needs is for the flock to be protected from the wolves dressed in wool.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3877
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 2:07 am: | |
Carolyn,
Thanks so much for your post. That is a great insight, and I believe you are right.
Jeremy |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7752
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 5:54 am: | |
Sorry about the frustration showing through, No excuse.
Sometimes I get frustrated and I don't know what I am frustrated about and that makes me even more frustrated.
I quickly agree that we are woefully short on the discernment end.
Thank you Truman for making me laugh, I needed it.
But look..didn't God call us to do at least something? Otherwise what did he mean when he said Matthew 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
Matthew 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Isn't there some way to form up a package of data to send out to churches revealing Adventism for what it is?
How many churches have an internet website? How many of them have a 'contact us' on that website?
How many have a church address?
If we are willing to pray, but not willing to go, I wonder how that sets up with the Lord?
River |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1673
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 5:13 pm: | |
River,
I see it as:
God uses people who can pray;
God uses people who can go.
Do what God has called you to do and trust Him to take care of everything.
I'm an action person, it is easier to go, or to do something that to just pray. But I figure all us people with a penchant for action need plenty of people who are extra strong in prayer. |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 623
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 6:26 pm: | |
Carolyn, Hogan's Heroes! TY for the laugh. It feels good to be able to look back on that painful time and giggle We surely had quite the journey together during those months! Yes, let's talk. We need to coordinate a time very soon. Email me when you can: kendalld@spu.edu
Dana |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 624
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 6:27 pm: | |
Oh, and I'm also praying that God will help never-been SDAs understand what is at stake. Very insightful comments, everyone... |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7754
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 4:40 am: | |
Rick,
You are right, God gives us different gifts and abilities.
Having said that, I suppose I see the formers a little differently than they see themselves.
I see a great potential in them, I don't see the former as a setback or odd ball, but as having the potential to re-waken the evangelical church to the new covenant and to be able to expose legalism in general as well the legalism and heresies in Adventism.
The evangelical church in general has lost it's excitement and enthusiasm for the new covenant.
In Revelation 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Revelation 2:5 The Lord tells us to Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
I believe the Evangelical church in general has lost it's excitement over what the Lord has done for us and needs to do its first works.
I think the one greatest gift you possess is the excitment for the new covenant and I fear that you will be re-buried in the dullness that exists in the evangelical churches. I fear that the evangelical churches will put out that flame in its own dead works.
The churches are there all right, but the excitement for what God has done for us is not spilling out into the streets much, if at all.
Its very true that some of us are just the action kind of people, we don't want to talk about it, we want to just go and get the job done, but I feel it's more than this.
You talk about the lack of discernment, but I'm afraid the lack of discernment is because the evangelical churches are asleep at the wheel and it needs to do its first works over.
They have not had the opportunity to lay the heresies taught by Adventist side by side with the new covenant to see the difference as you have and they are not on guard.
I was raised in the Methodist church and the Methodist were know for it faith teachings. I remember a time when one of the youth received a serious spinal injury in a bad car accident, his back was broken at the lower spine, and his prognosis was that he would never walk again, but the Methodist people in that church all gathered up and prayed for that boy and he walked. he came out of that wheel chair.
Now look at them, they are allowing those who openly practice a homosexual lifestyle to hold office in their churches. Same thing with the Lutherans.
You better believe these churches that have opened to door to that business have doubled the pressure for the churches that have withstood it.
How far down have we come? There is no spiritual discernment to speak of. Where is the excitement over Jesus dieing and rising the third day to bring us to rest in him? That my friend is the first works.
I see it as God doing a work in the formers and if anything the evangelicals churches are holding them back more than helping them.
If its not you all who exposes Adventism for what it is then who? A bunch of dead churches who are so dead they have no spiritual discernment?
I mean even the hecklers don't waste their time down there, at least you rated a heckler during the last Faf meeting. He was on line in case some of you didn't notice.
River |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 384
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 10:51 am: | |
~River~
I think you & I were about the only ones who noticed and responded to the "heckler"~
It has been my experience, for the most part, that sadly so many of the people I have interacted with in the Evangelical churches do not have the "fervor" for the New Testament Gospel and the desire to share it!
The Bible Study Groups I have been involved with, so many of the ladies, seemed taken aback, with my love of the Gospel and Jesus~ Often, in this setting, it is not acceptable for me to relate what I have experienced in adventism~ I have not tried to dominate the meeting or anything like that, it is just my joy that comes through me, I guess, that has them wondering!
I have a wonderful Pastor and he certainly teaches the scriptures with enthusiasm and joy~but is seems so many just have 'cotton' in their ears!
I am now involved (through my church) with "Global Media Outreach" ~ it is a wonderful way to minister to people who are dying of thirst for Jesus!
Enough about me! for one day!
~mj~ |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 9655
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 12:38 pm: | |
Oh yes, I noticed the heckler and. if my senior brain, remembers right I did respond to his heckling. Then I listened to the rest of what the speaker was saying. I prayed for the heckler that he/she would hear what was being said.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13433
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2012 - 1:13 am: | |
I do think God is calling people, and people are polarizing. It seems that there is a growing distinction between people who are indifferent to the gospel and those who love it. I might be wrong; I see from a limited perspective. But I sense that there is an intensifying chasm between those who will defend the gospel and those who will allow it to become politically correct.
I understand what you're saying, MJ. Excitement for the gospel is often viewed a bit suspiciously or even with annoyance. It seems that the more Scripturally-based a church is, the more appreciation there is for the gospel among the members.
Colleen |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 335
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2012 - 9:14 am: | |
Colleen,
You are totally right about a polarization of people around the Gospel. I can tell you that my stance on the Gospel has been revolutionized. It certainly means more to me now that it did when I was an Adventist.
Today when I share the Gospel or practice sharing the Gospel it is a complete sharing of the Gospel- because anything less that the complete Gospel is dangerous to a pre-Christian.
In truth an incomplete Gospel is another Gospel which is really no Gospel at all. And it grieves me to see just how horribly lightweight some not gospels are- when you gut the Gospel you can't save anyone.
Ross |
|
