| Author | Message | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2012 |
Colleen, I think that's right. Like Rick said, if we were in perfect submission and filled with the Spirit all the time, we wouldn't need other instruction. Sometimes I wish there were more answers, to questions such as: Do I turn the other cheek if doing so could affect my family? | ||
| Starlabs Registered user Username: Starlabs Post Number: 67 Registered: 5-2011 |
So many times we say well I can't say whether a person is saved or not because that's between God and him or her. And that's true, but at the same time when a person professes to be saved we do see evidence in their life. More of the old self begins to be replaced by the Spirit of God. We see changes being made in their lives. They just don't have so much of the same cares for the world as they once had. But for sure it's a process. It's like 1 step forwards and 2 steps back. Our old man rears it's ugly head so much. I think it's sometimes easier to see the progress in some people who show more outwardly behaviors of say thieving for an example while with others it's more subtle. As far as the woman at the well, I think she was saved as Truman said by Jesus saying to her I condemn you no more. That's what being saved is all about. "There is now no condemnation". | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1654 Registered: 7-2004  |
Then I am not sure why you keep raising your point as an objection to what I have said. The only point that I presented was about making forgiveness of pre-requisite of salvation.
Under the Law, without witnesses, there was no basis for condemning the woman to being stoned, which is what the Law demanded. There is no record of the woman seeking forgiveness, there is no indication of any faith on her part. She experienced mercy, but there is nothing in the passage to indicate that she was saved. When Jesus tells her to sin no more (and BTW you may be confused a little if you are using the NIV, because it doesn't not give a literal translation of this passage but uses a paraphrase "leave you life of sin" which may be leading to your own paraphrase of a paraphrase) He could have used langauge specific to adultery but he uses the general word for sin, which suggests a broader meaning of the sin included.
My objection is not to the concept of His law being written on our hearts. My objection is to the idea that is frequently presented within SDAism as a false alternative to the law being written on our hearts; the concept that the difference Jesus was seeking was the difference between following the letter of the Law and following the heart principles of the Law. Jesus wasn't trying to get them to do a better job of following the Law (which is what your descriptions seems to be suggesting), Jesus was trying to get them to acknolwedge their sinfulness and need for a Savior.
There is a distinctive line here that has to be rightly established. If all we are doing is going through the motions of the things we should be doing because we are saved, there is a problem in our Spiritual life. The instructions can not change us. If we are relying on the instructons, we are no different, no better off, than the children of Israel. The instructions given to them could not produce a righteous life, neither can the instructions given to us. There is a better way than written instruction and that is what is offered in the New Covenant. The point of the instruction, IMO, isn't to follow these instructions when we aren't in submission to the Spirit. The point of these instructions is to bring us back into submission to the Spirit. And that difference is not merely splitting hairs, it is the question of whether the Christian life is a life of Law (written instructions) or of Spirit. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1655 Registered: 7-2004 |
In the case of believers there is now, nor ever will be, condemnation. In the case of this woman, the only indication is that she was not currently condemned, but must "go and sin no more". Jesus was fulfilling His mission, He did not come here to condemn, He came to save (John 3:17). Jesus gave mercy, without any request for mercy. There is no record of her asking for forgiveness, yet she receives mercy. The unanswered question of this account is what she does as a result of this mercy. Does she believe in and follow the One who extended her that mercy or is she thankful about her close call but continues on with her life. We aren't told. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1656 Registered: 7-2004 |
May I ask where you got this reading of the passage from or why you chose to paraphrase it this way? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1657 Registered: 7-2004 |
My earlier statement:
should have read.. In the case of believers there is not now, nor ever will be, condemnation. | ||
| Starlabs Registered user Username: Starlabs Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2011 |
Well Rick, you got me on that one. I should not have said that Jesus says I condemn you no more. It actually says John 4:11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.” I took that out of context to mean that he didn't condemn her anymore. That's something the story doesn't tell us. We have no way of knowing what she did from there. I constantly need to remind myself that if I post something in here I better be accurate. Sometimes I post without putting as much research in to what I say as I should. I'm sorry about that, Rick. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1658 Registered: 7-2004 |
Exactly. It is possible that she did believe and follow Jesus from that very moment and He was addressing a saved person. But I don't think that we can know that for sure. There is no need to be sorry. We all learn so much from one another. And one of the aspects of transitioning out of SDAism that we all struggle with is unlearning so many little shifts and changes in the accounts from the Bible (not saying that is what happened in this particular case). I was a convert to SDAism, and I find things that still surprise me in ways that SDA accounts changed my understanding. I can only imagine how many more of those exist for those who grew up in the SDA church, reading SDA stories and messages all of their lives. | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 60 Registered: 1-2012 |
Don't worry, Starlabs, we are all paraphrasing (in a sense) unless we have these conversations in Greek. Rick, So now we are down to splitting the split ends. O.K., fine, but one request: How about dropping the straw man arguments? They only detract from your legitimate points. Example, your quote: "If all we are doing is going through the motions of the things we should be doing because we are saved, there is a problem in our Spiritual life." Response: That's weird, because I don't recall anyone suggesting we should be "going through the motions" of following instruction. That you even phrase it that way indicates you are ignoring the actual content of my post and creating a straw man. I'm not saying it's deliberate on your part, but it's distracting. I realize you wish to stress the "dangers" of following biblical instruction, but you can't "rightly establish" your interpretation of a "distinctive line" by using (seemingly) disingenuous arguments. As for your aversion to "doing" something, here is the problem with your logic: You can't avoid the fact that we have to "act" in one form or another. When you submit to the Spirit, is that "doing" something? Did you have to make a choice? Being saved, of course we want to submit and lead a Spirit-filled life. But since our sinful, selfish desires and motives keep showing themselves, we must constantly be submitting to the Spirit. I hate to break it to you, but submitting is a choice we make. (Gentle reminder: I am still speaking of post-salvation choices.) As for the parsing, ad infinitum, evidently to avoid any suggestion that we "do" anything, your arguments are weaving a tangled web (not of deceit, but perhaps of confusion). Example: "There is now no condemnation," in your view, means something totally different than Jesus saying "I don't condemn you." To me it seems quite similar. The woman had met the Saviour and He forgave her. (Unless you want to parse that and argue that "not condemning" is different than "forgiving.") Does Jesus forgive people without their acknowledgment and belief in Him? Perhaps? Hmm...so you're saying He forgives people, even if they don't.....hey, wait a minute, weren't you just arguing the other side of this in another thread? Ooops! (For what it's worth, I'm in the camp that believes it's possible, and that there is reasonable biblical evidence for it. And no, I never heard that from SDAs, unlike others here.) What is also interesting to me is that you want to be so precise with certain texts (how dare I paraphrase!), but then disregard entire passages of scripture, saying Jesus didn't really mean His instruction as instruction. I suppose we all do similar things, to some extent, based on our perspectives and beliefs. In any case, thanks for the interesting debate. I understand your perspective better now, and hopefully you have a better understanding of mine. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 284 Registered: 7-2008 |
Legal obedience to a law and heartfelt obedience to the Holy Spirit can be the same action. The difference is the MOTIVATION behind the action. The legalist does it because they are REQUIRED/HAVE to do it. The Spirit led because they have new hearts and WANT to do it. DESIRE to follow Jesus in whatever He asks of them, loving not their own lives even unto death. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1659 Registered: 7-2004 |
No, there is a considerable difference in dealing with translations and working with paraphrases. SDAism worked hard to confuse people on this, so that the Clear Word is less heinous.
I don't believe that this is a strawman. If we are doing things out of obligation we are only going through the motions, we have no heart desire that corresponds to the activity.
This is plain insulting.
This remains insulting. If you disagree with my conclusions, address the content and the reasoning methods.
The concept of rightly distinguishing Law and Gospel is not my concept. That approach and language extends back to at least Luther. You may disagree with whether that is a valid concept, but please don't paint it as my concept. Or you might decide that the concept is valid, but I am distinguishing incorrectly on an issue. But to claim that the case put forward is disigenuous is a personal attack rather than a response to the reasoning.
Yes, I have an aversion towards anything that adds works to the Gospel. Whether it is works required in order to be saved, works required to prove that we are saved, works required to stay saved. Any focus on our works takes the focus away from where it should be, on God's works.
Instead of all of the colorful language, why not just address which elements you do not agree with and explain you Biblical reasons for disagreeing with me.
Wow, you either haven't come close to understanding what I have written or you have chosen to misrepresent what I have written. You are the one who is tlinking salvation and the forgiveness of sins to this account of the woman caught in adultery. I am the one saying that these are not linked. My position was that Jesus' act of mercy regarding the woman adultery was not the forgiveness of all sins (past, present, and future) given to Believers. My position on this has remained consistent throughout this thread. Being a forgiven child of God does not happen without belief in Christ.
That would explain a great deal about why we view this passage so differently. If salvation requires faith in Christ, then there is no indication in this passage of either one. But if salvation does not require faith, then certainly there is as much reason to believe she was saved at the time of this encounter as there is to believe anyone who doesn't profess their faith is saved.
On the contrary, I believe that Jesus very much meant what He said. But, like all of Scripture, we have to take into account who it was being said to and for what purpose. I don't think either of us believe that the instructions for building the tabernacle apply to every church that is built. The challenge, and I am not claiming that it is obvious or that I have any special insight into getting it right, is how we properly apply the information about the audience, setting, and objectives.
Based on the comments in this last post I have to question whether or not you really do.
I think that one thing the discussion helped to reveal more clearly was how much our understanding of a specific account in Scripture is influenced by our beliefs about whether there is a path to salvation that does not involve faith in Jesus Christ. I think that much of our disagreement on the story of the woman caught in adultery is based on approaching the story with completely different premises. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1660 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well said. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 285 Registered: 7-2008 |
We must come to God in the manner that He chooses and not in a manner that we choose. God bid Cain and Abel to offer a blood sacrifice. Cain offered a bloodless sacrifice and it was unacceptable to God. Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God We cannot come to God or be saved without faith in the One whom God has sent, His only begotten Son, Jesus our Lord. | ||
| Starlabs Registered user Username: Starlabs Post Number: 69 Registered: 5-2011 |
Maybe we are missing a bigger picture here concerning the adulterous woman. The scribes were trying to entrap Jesus by bringing this woman who had broke the law. He didn't fall in their trap. They wanted Him to condemn her. But that's not why Christ came into the world. John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Jesus did invite her to change her life by sinning no more. Since I believe in God's election, I do think He gave the invitation of salvation. So if you believe it's not anything you do to earn salvation than hearing the rest of the story about whether she sinned or not is irrevelant because she probably did sin even if she was saved. I'm not saying she didn't start showing the effects of a repentant sinner but hey she could have messed up again. The point is Jesus didn't come to condemn but to save and He invited her to sin no more. He invited her. So yeah, I think she was saved if you look at it like that. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 287 Registered: 7-2008 |
Like the parable of the Wedding Feast in Mathew 22 not all who are invited repond to the call or accept the invitation. "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they WOULD NOT COME." | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 288 Registered: 7-2008 |
The Parable of the Wedding Feast A Sermon (No. 975) Delivered on Lord's-day Morning, February 12th, 1871 by C. H. SPURGEON, At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed and all things are ready: come unto the marriage."—Matthew 22:2,3,4. F GOD GRANT ME STRENGTH I hope to go through this parable, but at this present we shall confine our thoughts to the opening scene of the royal festival. Before, however, we proceed further, it is most fitting that we give expression to our deep gratitude, that it has pleased the infinite mind to stoop to our narrow capacities, and instruct us by parable. How tenderly condescending is God to devise similitudes, that his children may learn the mysteries of the kingdom! If it be sometimes marvelled at among men that great minds are ever ready to stoop, what a far greater marvel that God himself should bow the heavens and come down to meet our ignorance and slowness of comprehension! When the learned professor has been instructing his class in the hall in recondite matters of deep philosophy, and then goes home and takes his child upon his knee, and tries to bring down great truth to the grasp of his child's mind, then you see the great love of the man's heart: and when the eternal God, before whom seraphim are but insects of an hour, condescends to instruct our childishness and make us wise unto salvation, we may well say, "herein is love." Just as we give our children pictures that we may win the attention, and may by pleasing means fix truth upon their memories, so the Lord with loving inventiveness has become the author of many a charming metaphor, type, and allegory, by which he may gain our interest, and through his Holy Spirit enlighten our minds. If he who thunders till the mountains tremble, yet deigns to speak with us in a still small voice, let us gladly sit in Mary's place at his gracious feet, and willingly learn of him. O that God would give to each one a teachable spirit, for this is the greatest step towards understanding the mind of God. He who is willing to learn, in a childlike spirit, is already in a considerable measure taught of God. May we all so study this instructive parable as to be quickened by it to all that is well-pleasing in the sight of God, for after all true learning in godliness may be judged of by its result; upon our lives. If we are holier we are wiser, practical obedience to the will of the Lord Jesus is the surest evidence of an understanding heart. In order to understand the parable before us we must first direct our attention to the design of the "certain king" here spoken of. He had a grand object in view; he desired to do honor to his son upon the occasion of his marriage. We shall then notice the very generous method by which he proposed to accomplish his purpose; he made a dinner, and bade many: there were other modes of honoring his son, but the great king elected the mode which would best display his bounty. We shall then observe, with sad interest, the serious hindrance which arose to the carrying out of his generous design—those who were bidden would not come. There was nothing to hinder the magnificence of the festival in the riches of the prince—he lavished out his stores for the feast; but here was a hindrance strange and difficult to remove, they would not come. Then our thoughts will linger admiringly over the gracious rejoinder which the king made to the opposers of his design; he sent other servants to repeat the invitation, "Come ye to the marriage." If we shall drink deep into the meaning of these three verses, we shall have more than enough for one meditation. I. A certain king of wide dominions and great power designed to give a magnificent banquet, with a GRAND OBJECT in view. The crown prince, his well beloved heir, was about to take to himself a fair bride, and therefore the royal father desired to celebrate the event with extraordinary honors. From earth, look up to heaven. The great object of God the Father is to glorify his Son. It is his will "that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father." (John 5:23.) Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is glorious already in his divine person. He is ineffably blessed, and infinitely beyond needing honor. All the angels of God worship him, and his glory fills all heaven. He has appeared on the stage of action as the Creator and as such his glory is perfect, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." He said, "Light be," and it flamed forth. He bade the mountains lift their heads, and their summits pierced the clouds. He created the water-floods, he bade them seek their channels, and he appointed their bounds. Nothing is lacking to the glory of the Word of God, who was in the beginning with God, who spake and it was done, who commanded, and it stood forth. He is highly exalted also as the preserver, for he is before all things, and by him all things consist. He is that nail fastened in a sure place, upon which all things hang. The keys of heaven, and death, and hell, are fastened to his girdle, and the government shall be upon his shoulders, and his name shall be called Wonderful. He hath a name which is above every name, before which all things shall bow, in heaven, and earth, and under the earth. He is God over all. He is blessed for ever. To him that is, and was, and is to come, the universal song goeth up. But there is another relation in which the Son of God has graciously been pleased to stand towards us. He has undertaken to be a Savior, in order that he might be a bridegroom. He had enough glory before, but in the greatness of his heart, he would magnify his compassion even above his power, and he therefore condescended to take into union with himself the nature of man, in order that he might redeem the beloved objects of his choice from the penalty due to their sins, and might enter into the nearest conceivable union with them. It is as Savior that the Father seeks to honor the Son, and the gospel feast is not for the honor of his person merely, but for the honor of his person in this new, yet anciently purposed relationship. It is for the honor of Jesus as entering into spiritual union with his church, that the gospel is prepared as a royal entertainment. Brethren, when I said that here was a grand occasion, it certainly is so in God's esteem, and it should be so in ours; we should delight to glorify the Son of God. To all loyal subjects in any realm, the marriage of one of the royal family is a matter of great interest, and it is usual and fitting to give expression to congratulations and sympathies by suitable rejoicings. In the instance before us the occasion calls for special joy from all the subjects of the great king of kings. For the occasion in itself is a subject for great delight and thankfulness to us personally. The marriage is with whom? With angels? He took not up angels. It is a marriage with our own nature, "he took up the seed of Abraham." Shall we not rejoice when heaven's great Lord is incarnate as a man, and stoops to redeem humanity from the ruin of the fall? Angels rejoice but they have no such share in the joy as we have. It is the highest personal joy to manhood that Jesus Christ who thought it not robbery to be equal with God, was made in the likeness of men that he might be one flesh with his chosen. Arise ye who slumber! If there was ever an occasion when ye should bestir your spirits and cry "wake up my glory, awake psaltery and harp" it is now, when Jesus comes to be affianced to his church, to make himself of one flesh with her, that he may redeem her, and afterwards exalt her to sit with him upon his throne. Here were abundant reasons why the invited guests should come with joyful steps, and count themselves thrice happy to be bidden to such a banquet. There is overwhelming reason wily mankind should rejoice in the glorious gospel of Jesus and hasten to avail themselves of it. Beside that we must consider the royal descent of the Bridegroom. Remember that Jesus Christ our Savior is very God of very God. Are we asked to do him honor? It is right, for to whom else should honor be given? Surely we should glorify our Creator and Preserver! Wilful must be the disobedience which will not pay reverence to one so highly exalted and so worthy of all homage. It is heaven to serve such a Lord. His glory reacheth unto the clouds; let him be adored for ever and ever; O come let us worship and bow down, let us cheerfully obey those commands of God which aim at the honor of his Son. Remember also the person of Immanuel, and you will desire his glory. This glorious Son, whose fame is to be spread abroad, is most certainly God—of that we have spoken, but he is also most assuredly man, our brother, bone of our bone, and flesh of our flesh. Do we not delight to believe that he, tempted in all points as we are, has never yet submitted to be stained by sin? Never such a man as he, head of the race, the second Adam, the everlasting Father—who among us would not do him reverence? Will we not seek his honor, seeing that now he lifts our race to be next to the throne of God. Remember, too, his character. Was there ever such a life as his? I will not so much speak of his divine character, though that furnishes abundant reason for worship and adoration, but think of him even as a man. O beloved, what tenderness, what compassion, yet what holy boldness; what love for sinners, and yet what love for truth! Men who have not loved him have nevertheless admired him, and hearts in which we least expected to see such recognition of his excellence have nevertheless been deeply affected as they have studied his life. We must praise him, for He is "chief among ten thousand, and altogether lovely." It were treason to be silent when the hour has come to speak of him who is peerless among men and matchless among angels. Clap, clap your hands at the thought of the marriage of the King's Son, for whom his bride hath made herself ready. Think, too, of his achievements. We take into reckoning whenever we do honor to a prince all that he may have done for the nation over which he rules. What, then, has Jesus done for us? Rather let me say what has he not done? Upon his shoulders were laid our sins; he carried them into the wilderness, and they are gone for ever. Against him came forth our foes; he met them in shock of battle, and where are they now? They are cast into the depths of the sea. As for death itself, that last of foes, he has virtually overcome it, and ere long the weakest of us through him shall say "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" He is the hero of heaven. He returned to his Father's throne amidst the acclamations of the universe. Do we not, for whom he fought, for whom he conquered, do we not desire to honor him? I feel I speak with bated breath upon a theme where all our powers of speech should be let loose. Bring forth the royal diadem and crown him! Is it not the universal verdict of all who know him? Ought it not to be the cry of all the sons of men? East and west, and north and south, ought they not to ring the joy bells and hang out streamers on his marriage day, for joy of him? Is the King's Son to be married, is there a festival in his honor? O then let him be great, let him be glorious! Long live the King! Let the maidens go forth with their timbrels, and the sons of music make sweet melody—yea, let all creatures that have breath break forth with his praises. "Hosanna! Hosanna! Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." II. Secondly, here is a GENEROUS METHOD of accomplishing the design. A king's son is to be honored on the day of his marriage, in what way shall it be done? Barbarous nations have their great festivals, and alas, that men should have sunk so low; on such occasions rivers of human blood are made to flow. To this very day, on the borders of civilisation, there is found a wretched tyrant whose infernal customs, for I dare not call them by a less severe term, command the murder of hundreds of his fellow creatures in cold blood, on certain high days and festivals. Thus would the monster honor his son by acting like a fiend. No blood is poured forth to honor the Son of heaven's great King. I doubt not Jesus will have honor even in the destruction of men if they reject his mercy, but it is not so that God elects to glorify his Son. Jesus the Savior, on his wedding-day with manhood, is glorified by mercy, not by wrath. If blood be mentioned on such a day, it is his own by which he is glorified. The slaughter of mankind would bring no joy to him, he is meek and lowly, a lover of the sons of men. It has been the custom of most kings to signalise a princely wedding by levying a fresh tax, or demanding an increased subsidy from their subjects. In the case of the anticipated wedding of our beloved Queen's daughter, the dowry sought will be given with greater pleasure than upon any former occasion, and none of us would lift a whisper of complaint; but the parable shows that the King of kings deals with us not after the manner of man. He asks no dowry for his Son; he makes the marriage memorable not by demands but by gifts. Nothing is sought for from the people, but much is prepared for them, gifts are lavishly bestowed, and all that is requested of the subjects is, that they for awhile merge the subject in the more honorable character of the guest, and willingly come to the palace, not to labor or serve at the table, but to feast and to rejoice. Observe, then, the generous method by which God honors Christ is set forth here under the form of a banquet. I noted Matthew Henry's way of describing the objects of a feast, and with the alliteration of the Puritans, he says, "A feast is for love and for laughter, for fullness and for fellowship." It is even so with the gospel. It is for love; in the gospel, sinner, you are invited to be reconciled to God, you are assured that God forgives your sins, ceases to be angry, and would have you reconciled to him through his Son. Thus love is established between God and the soul. Then it is for laughter, for happiness, for joy. Those who come to God in Christ Jesus, and believe in him, have their hearts filled with overflowing peace, which calm lake of peace often lifts up itself in waves of joy, which clap their hands in exultation. It is not to sorrow but to joy that the great King invites his subjects, when he glorifies his Son Jesus. It is not that you may be distressed, but that you may be delighted that he bids you believe in the crucified Savior and live. A feast, moreover, is for fullness. The hungry famished soul of man is satisfied with the blessings of grace. The gospel fills the whole capacity of our manhood. There is not a faculty of our nature which is not made to feel its need supplied when the soul accepts the provisions of mercy; our whole manhood is satisfied with good things and our youth is renewed like the eagles. "For I have satisfied the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul." To crown all, the gospel brings us into fellowship with the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. In Christ Jesus we commune with the sacred Trinity. God becomes our Father, and reveals his paternal heart. Jesus manifests himself unto us as he doth not unto the world, and the communion of the Holy Ghost abides with us. Our fellowship is like that of Jonathan with David, or Jesus with John. We feast on the bread of heaven, and drink wines on the lees well refined. We are brought into the heavenly banqueting house where the secret of the Lord is revealed to us, and our heart pours itself out before the Lord Very near is our communion with God; most intimate love and condescension does he show to us. What say you to this? Is there not here a rich repast worthy of him who prepares it. Here all your capacious powers can wish, O sinner, shall be given to you; all you want for time and for eternity God prepares in the person of his dear Son, and bids you receive it without money and without price. I have already told you that all the expense lies with him. It was a very sumptuous festival, there were oxen, and there were fatlings, but none of these were taken from the pastures, or stalls of the guests. The gospel is an expensive business; the very heart of Christ was drained to find the price for this great festival; but it costs the sinner nothing, nothing of money, nothing of merit, nothing of preparation. You rosy come as you are to the gospel feast, for the only wedding dress required is freely provided for you. Just as you are, you are bidden to believe in Jesus. You have nothing to do but to receive of his fullness, for to "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." You are not asked to contribute to the provision, but to be a feaster at the divine banquet of infinite compassion. How honorable, too, is the gospel to those who receive it. An invitation to a regal marriage was a high honor to those who were bidden. I do not suppose that many of us are likely to be invited to the Princess's wedding, and, if we were, we should probably be greatly elated, for we should most of us feel it to be one of the great events of our lives. So was it with these people. A king's son is not married every day, and it is not everybody that is bidden to the monarch's entertainment. All their lives long they would say, "I was at his wedding, and saw all the splendor of the marriage festival." Probably some of them had never before enjoyed such a feast as the luxurious potentate had prepared for that day, and had never before been in such good company. My brethren nothing so honors a man as for him to accept the gospel. While his faith honors Christ, Christ honors him. It is no mean thing to be a king's son, but those who come to the marriage feast of God's own Son shall become King's sons themselves—themselves participators in the glory of the great heir of all things. While I am speaking of this generous method my heart glows with sacred ardor, and my wonder rises that men do not come to the banquet of love which honors all its guests. When the banquet is so costly to the host, so free to the guests, and so honorable to all concerned, how is it that there should be found any so unwise as to refuse the favor. Surely here is an illustration of the folly of the unrenewed heart, and a proof of the deep depravity which sin has caused. If men turn their backs on Moses with his stony tables, I do not marvel, but to despise the loaded tables of grace, heaped up with oxen and fatlings—this is strange. To resist the justice of God is a crime, but to repel the generosity of heaven, what is this? We must invent a term of infamy with which to brand the base ingratitude. To resist God in majesty of terror is insanity but to spurn him in the majesty of his mercy is something more than madness. Sin reaches its climax when it resolves to starve sooner than owe anything to divine goodness. I feel I must anticipate the period for delivering my message, and as I have described to you the way in which God honors his Son, I must at once proclaim the invitation, and cry to you, "Come to the wedding feast. Come ye, and glorify Jesus by accepting the provisions of grace. Your works will not honor him, if you set them up as a righteousness in competition with his righteousness. Not even your repentance can glorify him, if you think to make it a rival to his precious blood. Come, guilty sinner, as you are, and take the mercy Jesus freely presents to you, and accept the pardon which his blood secures to those who believe in him." Methinks when the messenger went out from the King and first of all marked signs of neglect among those who were bidden, and saw that they would not come, he must have been mute with astonishment. He had seen the oxen, and seen the fatlings, and all the goodly preparations, he knew the King, he knew his Son, he knew what joy it was to be at such a feast; and when the bidden ones began to turn their backs on him, and go their way to their farms, the messenger, repeated his message over and over again with eagerness, wondering all the while at the treason which dared insult so good a Being. I think I see him, at first indignant for his Master's sake, and afterwards melted to pity as he saw what would surely come of such an extravagance of ingratitude, such a superfluity of insolence. We mourned that his fellow-citizens whom he loved should be such fools as to reject so good an offer, and spurn so blessed a proclamation. I, too, am tossed to and fro in soul, with mingled but vehement feelings. O, my God, thou hast provided the gospel, let none in this house reject it, and so slight thy Son and dishonor thee, but may all rejoice in thy generous way of glorifying Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom of his church, and may they come, and willingly grace the festival of thy love. III. We now advance to our third point, and regretfully remember THE SERIOUS HINDRANCE which for awhile interfered with the joyful event. The king had thought in his mind, "I will make a great feast, I will invite a large number. They shall enjoy all my kingdom can afford, and I shall thus show how much I love my son, and moreover all the guests will have sweet memories in connection with his marriage." When his messengers went out to intimate to those who had received previously an express invitation that the time was come, it is written, "They would not come;" not they could not, but they "would not come." Some for one reason, some for another, but without exception they would not come. Here was a very serious hindrance to the grand business. Cannot the king drag his guests to the table? Yes, but then it would not accomplish his purpose. He wants not slaves to grace his throne. Persons compelled to sit at a marriage-feast would not adorn it. What credit could it be to a king to force his subjects to feast at his table? No for once, as I have said before, the subject must be merged in the guest. It was essential to the dignity of the festival that the guests should come with cheerfulness to the festival, but they would not come. Why? Why would they not come? The answer shall be such as to answer another question—Why do not you come and believe in Jesus! With many of them it was an indifference to the whole affair. They did not see what concern they had in the king or his son. Royal marriages were high things and concerned high people; they were plain-speaking men, farmers who went hedging and ditching, or tradesmen who made out bills and sold by the yard or pound. What cared they for the court, the palace, the king, the prince, his bride, or his dinner! They did not say quite that, but such was their feeling; it might be a fine thing, but it was altogether out of their line. How many run in the same groove at this hour? We have heard it said, "What has a working man to do with religion?" and we have heard others of another grade in life affirm that persons who are in business cannot afford time for religion, but had better mind the main chance. The Lord have mercy upon your folly! Here is one great obstacle to the gospel, the stolid indifference of the human mind concerning this grandest of all conceptions—God's glorifying his dear Son by having mercy upon sinners. At the bottom the real reason for the refusal of those in the parable was that they were disloyal, they would not come to the supper because they saw an opportunity for the loyal to be glad, and not being loyal they did not wish to hear the songs and acclamations of others who were. By staying away they insulted the king, and declared that they cared not whether he was a king or not, whether his son was a prince or not. They determined to disavow their allegiance by refusing the invitation. They said in effect, "Anyhow, if he be a king and his son a prince, we will do him no honor, we will not be numbered with those who surround his board and show forth his splendor. No doubt a feast is worth having, and such a feast as there will be provided t'were well for us to participate in, but for once we will deny our appetites that we may indulge our pride. We proclaim a revolt. We declare we will not go." Ah, ye who believe not in Jesus, at the bottom of it your unbelief is enmity to your Maker, sedition against the great Ruler of the universe, who deserves your homage. "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib," but ye know not, neither do ye consider; ye are rebels against the Majesty of heaven. Moreover, the refusal was a slight to the prince as well as to his father, and in some cases the gospel is refused mainly with this intent, because the unbeliever rejects the deity of Christ, or despises his atonement. O sirs, beware of this, I know of no rock more fatal than to dishonor Christ by denying his sonship and his deity. Split not upon it, I beseech you—"Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way when his wrath is kindled but a little." Indifference covered the refusal in the text, "they made light of it," but if you take off the film you will see that at the bottom there was treason against the majesty of the king, and distaste to the dignity of his son. No doubt some of them despised the feast itself. They must have known that with such a king it could not be a starveling meal, but they pretended to despise the feast. How many there are who despise the gospel which they do not understand, I say which they do not understand, for almost invariably if you hear a man depreciate the gospel, you will find that he has scarcely even read the New Testament and is a utter stranger to the doctrines of grace. Listen to a man who is voluble in condemnation of the gospel, and you may rest assured that he is fond because he is empty. If he understood the subject better he would find, if he were indeed a man of candour, that he would be led at least to be silent in admiration if he did not become loyal in acceptance. Beloved friends, the feast is such as you greatly need, let me tell you what it is. It is pardon for the past, renewal of nature for the present, and glory for the future. Here is God to be our helper, his Son to be our shepherd, the Spirit to be our instructor. Here is the love of the Father to be our delight, the blood of the Son to be our cleansing, the energy of the Holy Spirit to be life from the dead to us. You cannot want anything that you ought to want, but what is provided in the gospel, and Jesus Christ will be glorified if you accept it by faith. But here is the hindrance, men do not accept it, "they would not come." Some of us thought that if we put the gospel in a clear light, and if we were earnest in stating it our hearers must be converted, and God forbid we should ever try to do otherwise than make it plain and be earnest, but for all that the best ministry that ever was, or ever could be, will be unsuccessful in a measure; yea, and altogether so, unless the effectual work of the Spirit be present. Still will the cry go up, "Who hath believed our report?" Still will those who serve their Master best, have reason to mourn that they sow on stony ground, and cast their bread on thankless waters. Even the prince of preachers had to say, "Ye search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, but ye will not come to me that ye might have life." Alas, alas, that mercy should be rejected and heaven spurned. IV. So now we must close with the most practical matter of consideration, THE GRACIOUS REJOINDER of the king to the impertinence which interfered with his plans. What did he say? You will observe that they had been bidden, and then called; after the Oriental custom, the call intimated that the festival was now approaching, so that they were not taken unawares, but knew what they did. The second invitation they rejected in cold blood, deliberately, and with intent. What did the monarch do? Set their city in a blaze, and at once root out the rebels? No, but in the first place, he winked at their former insolent refusal. He said in himself, "Peradventure they mistook my servants, peradventure they did not understand that the hour was come. Perhaps the message that was delivered to them was too brief, and they missed its meaning. Or, if perchance, they have fallen into some temporary enmity against me, on reconsideration, they will wish that they had not been so rude, and ungenerous to me. What have I done that they should refuse my dinner? What has my son done that they should not be willing to honor him by feasting at my table. Men lone feasting, my son deserves their honor—why should they not come? I will pass over the past and begin again." My hearers, there are many of you who have rejected Christ after many invitations, and this morning my Lord forgets your former unkindnesses, and sends me again with the same message, again to bid you "come to the wedding." It is no small patience which overlooks the past and perseveres in kindness, honestly desiring your good. The King sent another invitation—"all things are ready, come ye to the marriage," but you will please to observe that he changed the messenger. "Again he sent forth other servants." Yes, and I will say it, for my soul feels it, if a change of messengers will win you, much as I love the task of speaking in my Master's name, I would gladly die now, where I am, that some other preacher might occupy this platform, if thereby you might be saved. I know my speech to some of you must be monotonous. I seek out images fresh and many, and try to vary my voice and manner, but for all that one man must grow stale to you when heard so often. Perhaps my modes are not the sort to touch your peculiarities of temperament—well, good Master, set thy servant aside, and consider him not. Send other messengers if perchance they may succeed. But to some of you I am another messenger, not a better, but another, since my brethren have failed with you. Oh, then, when my voice cries, "Come unto Jesus, trust in his atonement, believe in him, look to him and live," let the new voice be successful, where former heralds have been disregarded. You notice, too, that the message was a little changed. At first it was very short. Surely if men's hearts were right, short sermons would be enough. A very brief invitation might suffice if the heart were right, but since hearts are wrong God bids his servants enlarge, expand, and expound. "Come, for all things are ready. I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fatlings are killed, all things are ready, come to the marriage." One of the best ways of bringing sinners to Christ is to explain the gospel to them. If we dwell upon its preparations, if we speak of its richness and freeness, some may be attracted whom the short message which merely tells the plan of salvation might not attract. To some it is enough to say, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved," for they are asking, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" but others need to be attracted to the wedding feast by the description of the sumptuousness of the repast. We must try to preach the gospel more fully to you, but we shall never tell you of all the richness of the grace of God. As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are his thoughts above your thoughts, and his ways above your ways. Forsake your sins and your thoughts and turn to the Lord, for he will abundantly pardon you. He will receive you to his heart of love, and give you the kiss of his affection at this hour, if, like prodigal children, you come back and seek your Father's face. The gospel is a river of love, it is a sea of love, it is a heaven of love, it is a universe of love, it is all love. Words there are none, fully to set forth the amazing love of God to sinners, no sin too big or too black, no crime too crimson or too cursed for pardon. If you do but look to his dear crucified Son all manner of sin and of blasphemy shall be forgiven you. There is forgiveness. Jesus gives repentance and remission. And then the happiness which will be brought to you here and hereafter are equally beyond description. You shall have heaven on earth and heaven in heaven; God shall be your God, Christ shall be your friend, and eternal bliss shall be your portion. In this last message the "guests were pressed very delicately, but still in a way which if they had possessed any generosity of heart at all, must have touched them. You see how the evangelist puts it, he does not say, "Come, or else you will miss the feast; come, or else the king will be angry; come, come, or else you will be the losers." No, but—he puts it, as I read it, in a very remarkable way. I venture to say—if I be wrong, the Master forgive me so saying—the king makes himself the object of sympathy, as though he were an embarrassed host. See here, "My dinner is ready, but there is no one to eat it; my oxen and fatlings are all killed, but there are no guests." "Come, come," he seems to say, "for I am a host without guests." So sometimes in the gospel you will see God speaks as if he would represent himself as getting an advantage by our being saved. Now we know that herein he condescends in love to speak after the manner of men. What can he gain by us? If we perish what is he the loser? But he makes himself often in the gospel to be like a father who yearns over his child, longing for him to come home. He makes himself, the infinite God, turn beggar to his own creatures, and beseeches them to be reconciled. Wondrous stoop; for, like a chapman who sells his wares, he cries, "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters; and he that hath no money, let him come." Do you observe how Christ, as he wept over Jerusalem, seems to weep for himself as well as for them. "How often would I have gathered thy children together." And God, in the prophets, puts it as his own sorrow, "How can I set thee as Admah, how can I make thee as Zeboim," as if it were not the child's loss alone, but the father's loss also, if the sinner died. Do you not feel, as it were, a sympathy with God when you see his gospel rejected? Shall the cross be lifted high, and none look to it? Shall Jesus die, and men not be saved by his death? O blessed Lord, we feel, if nothing else should draw us, we must come when we see, as it were, thyself represented as a host under our embarrassment, for lack of guests. Great God, we come, we come right gladly, we come to participate of the bounties which thou hast provided, and to glorify Jesus Christ by receiving as needy sinners that which thy mercy has provided. Brethren and sisters since Christ finds many loath to honor him, my exhortation is to you who love him, honor him the more since the world will not. You who have been constrained to come, remember to sing as you sit at his table, and rejoice and bless his name. Next go home and intercede for those who will not come, that the Lord will enlighten their understandings, and change their wills, that they may be yet constrained to believe in Jesus; and as for those of you who feel half inclined this morning by the soft touches of his grace to come and feast, let me bid you come. It is a glorious gospel—the feast is good. He is a glorious king—the Host is good. He is a blessed Savior, he who is married, he is good. It is all good, and you shall be made good too, if your souls accept the invitation of the gospel which is given to you this day. "He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved: he that believeth not shall be damned." "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." The Lord send his Spirit to make the call effectual, for his dear Son's sake. Amen. Copyright © 2001 by Phillip R. Johnson. All rights reserved. | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 61 Registered: 1-2012 |
Well Rick... This is going nowhere fast. For whatever reason, not saying it's intentional, you seem to (notice I said "seem to") ignore the bigger points and take personal offense when someone points this out. Questions: Did I ever say or imply that we should "go through the motions" of what Jesus and the apostles instructed? This is what you presented as the alternative to your position. That's called a strawman argument; I never held that position. Did I ever say or imply that we can "do" anything of ourselves without being filled with the Spirit? Did I ever say or imply that WE have a path to salvation without belief in Jesus? (No, I merely have stated that God, in His mercy, may choose to save some who never heard of Jesus, etc.) I didn't have this in mind when reading the story of the adulterous woman, but I interpreted Jesus' words, "Neither do I condemn you" as meaning she wasn't condemned. On the basis of the above points, I don't know who you are arguing with at this point, since you are either ignoring or missing the overall points I have made. This is what I meant about some of your answers SEEMING to be disingenuous - because you pose points as responses to things I never said or implied. I'm sorry you felt insulted by that, but that is the way it came across to me. If that was not your intent, I accept that. So, since this is obviously not productive, I will bow out. I respect your perspectives and your writing, and I hope you can understand my points. Peace (Message edited by truman on February 10, 2012) | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 402 Registered: 7-2011  |
Truman, Much of what you have shared on this thread resonates with me too. Christians have been at variance about the teachings of the Bible for centuries, this discussion is nothing new. There are many different denominations and sects of Christianity as a result perhaps. Ric has discovered a way of interpreting the Bible that is meaningful and reduces dissonance for him. His points are valid to him and to others who share his conclusions. Ric has a gift in helping people to think. I have appreciated this. He values the application of logic in argument. Ric is good at pressing buttons, or so I have observed.  Our relationship with God and spiritual journey are personal. It is good to share what we have found to be true with others because in listening to one another we can learn and grow. Giving up the need to be right can be liberating too. Being true to the Spirit of God working in our own hearts was what led each of us out of Adventism. His Spirit will continue to lead us each our own way. Peace | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1661 Registered: 7-2004 |
Starlabs,
I agree with everything you said, except for the conclusion that this provides reason to conclude that she was saved. Allow me to explain: Jesus gave an invitation implicitly in the mercy that He showed that invited her to learn more or experience more of that mercy. We aren't told how she responded to that invitation. If you believe that all who are invited come immediately, then the conclusion that she was now a born again believer follows from your assumption. I don't share the assumption that all who are invited respond. Without such an assumption, we are left only with what the passage records. I also agree that whether she sinned again has no bearing on the story. I am not suggesting we base the conclusion about her salvation on her success at being sinless. I am suggesting that we have been given no evidence that she confessed, repented, or believed that Jesus was anything beyond a merciful guy. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1662 Registered: 7-2004 |
Truman
What you may not recognize is that a logical argument is built on a series of premises that must all be true in order to accept that the conclusion is true. If there is something wrong with one of these premises, it invalidates the conclusion. So there are times where I may not address every single point that someone is making. They may even have several true premises along with their false premise. You may see these other points as the most important things and feel that they have been ignored. From my standpoint, if other steps of your reasoning are false these have already invalidated your conclusion. By focusing on these false premises rather than everything being said, it places the attention on the part of the argument that is incorrect. Changing that premise will result in changes in the overall reasoning and, likely, changes in the conclusion.
Can someone who has never heard of Jesus have belief in Jesus? How do you believe in that which you have never even heard of? So yes you have implied very clearly that a person can be saved without having a belief in Jesus Christ. |
