| Author |
Message |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2012 - 10:05 pm: |     |
Goose; should I have said: "Romans 10:17 says..." instead of "The Bible says..."?
Are you saying that Romans 10:17 isn't in the Bible? I guarantee that if you get your Bible out and look it up, you'll find it there! 
How about if I take my cue from you and say: "The mysteriously Divine power of the Word says in Romans 10:17; 'So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.'"
I've been feeling lately like my posts are overly scrutinized. I simply quoted the Bible and offered someone a gift and you seem to be correcting me for that. Why would you nit-pick on me for that? I thought this was a friendly forum to post comments, but it seems like everyone except me can post whatever they like.
(Message edited by Asurprise on January 28, 2012) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13359
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2012 - 11:43 pm: | |
Asurprise, I also say "The Bible says..." or "Scripture says..."
I understand your point, Goose. In general, though, I'm so delighted when people appeal to Scripture as God's inerrant word that I think in a group of Christians, we can understand the underlying recognition that Scripture is actually God's own word to us.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7663
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2012 - 4:38 am: | |
I think referring to scripture is not over used, it's under used if anything.
It often repels because the word of God can bring conviction and correction, but those who love it are not repelled by it.
"The Bible says: Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
I agree we shouldn't use it as a blunt instrument of force and we need to learn to use it carefully and skillfully because of the fact that it in itself cuts deep.
Maybe the reason we sometimes over use it is because we think it is not doing its job?
A skilled carpenter can drive a nail with three sharp blows, while the unskilled uses many blows, bends the nail and smashes his finger.
Which one do I want working on my house, do you think? |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 302
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2012 - 8:08 am: | |
When I am talking to believers, I sometimes bring up scripture, and unless I have my Bible with me and have the time to find a particular scripture, I sometimes say something like " you know that scripture where Jesus, or Paul is talking about this , or that" and they will chime in with the scripture or a paraphrase that lets everyone know we are on the same page, and our spirit is fed.
I contrast this to some walking encyclopedias of scripture who can spout off chapter and verse, but use it without spiritual discernment, to promote a false gospel. These one verse wonders seem all so smart, and collegiate about it, but are in fact spiritually dead. I've seen this at tent meetings, and all I could think was " their goes the devil cleverly disguised"
I wish I used more scripture in my posts. It never hurts to recognize the authorship of what you state. But I have also seen "clouds without rain" use the same technique.
I always like to say "it is written" cause some other guy said it and it worked for him.
Chris |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2378
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2012 - 11:35 am: | |
Jesus defeated the enemy by saying, "it is written;" and that's the same as saying, "the Bible says."
The Bible says: "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2379
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2012 - 11:53 am: | |
Kiki; none of us will ever be good enough. Only Jesus was good enough. In fact He was perfect.
The standard for Heaven is perfection and that should throw anybody who's trying to "earn" Heaven into despair; but Jesus gives salvation to us as a FREE GIFT to be had for the asking. One difference between the false religions and Christianity is that in the false religions, the people HOPE that they will be saved someday but Christians KNOW that they have salvation NOW, and not because of anything they do or don't do; but because of WHO HAS THEM! |
Truman
Registered user
Username: Truman
Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2012
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2012 - 8:20 pm: | |
Asurprise, I agree with you on this one. I'm guessing Goose was probably thumped over the head with a few (thousand) proof texts in SDA-land, so maybe we let this one go.
On a side note, ya gotta love some of those goofy "proof text" conversations though; you end up so frustrated with the out-of-context references that you say things like "Well the bible also says we should stone adulterers and Sabbath breakers..." |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1578
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 3:53 pm: | |
Goose,
Could I conclude from the wording of your comments that your view of inspiration is a least a little different than the verbal-plenary approach? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13364
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 4:11 pm: | |
You know, this is actually a really significant subject. One of the general sessions at the FAF weekend is going to address the need to trust Scripture implicitly in order to reshape our worldview from Adventist to biblical.
In fact I just sent an email to Jon Rittenhouse who will be teaching this session, telling him some of the underlying assumptions transitioning Adventists have about Scripture. I'll copy part of what I wrote:
quote:Adventists say Scripture is God's word and "infallible", but they don't admit it's inerrant. They use eisegesis rather than exegesis. They believe that there are errors in Scripture because the writers, not the words, were "inspired", and they believe EGW was inspired in the same way the Bible writers were inspired--and they actively teach this notion.
They they say God inspired the Bible writers’ minds with His thoughts, but He allowed them to interpret and understand those thoughts according to their own culture and worldviews, so what we have in Scripture is not actually God's words but God's ideas filtered through men's limited perceptions.
What Adventists must do to "unpack":
1. They have to decide that Scripture alone is God's revelation to us, not the words of modern prophets (and they have to understand how and why this is true: biblical proof).
2. They have to make a decision to ask God to help them read Scripture without Adventist filters--which most don't know they wear.
3. They have to allow Scripture to inform them of the truth about itself and about God and (here's the BIGGIE) submit their minds to it. Adventists resist submitting their minds to God's word. They argue, "God gave me my mind, and He expects me to use it. He doesn't expect me to check it at the door." They believe this right to be the intellectual arbiter of truth is their God-given right.
4. They have to face the fact that truth is absolute, not relative.
5. They have to acknowledge that an extra-biblical prophet cannot have authority according to Scripture.
Adventists proof-text us and their doctrines to death. In fact, I think it's safe to say that most of us were pretty bored and glazed-over by Scripture as Adventists.
In context, however, and when we are submitted to the Lord Jesus, Scripture is alive and fascinating and deep and astonishing. It says so much more than we thought, and it says things that are COMPLETELY different than we were told.
Every jot and tittle—every verb tense and preposition—is significant, and it reveals an amazing reality. Scripture is completely reliable. We can trust it implicitly. If we don't, we set up our own minds as the "last word" on what is real.
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 4:21 pm: | |
Colleen,
Many people, particularly questioning SDAs or those who are fairly early in processing their transition out may think that you have overstated this idea of error in Scripture. So I would like to provide a quote from the EGW estate webiste on the subject:
quote:Because "everything that is human is imperfect,"(1 SM 20-21) we must accept the idea of imperfections and mistakes in both the Bible and Ellen White's writings.
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13368
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 4:45 pm: | |
OH, Rick--thank you! I hadn't seen that one. I KNEW it was a true Adventist assumption, but I hadn't seen it so plainly stated!
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7668
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 7:42 pm: | |
It sorta is and sorta ain't, ends up with a god that sorta can and sorta cain't! |
Mkfound
Registered user
Username: Mkfound
Post Number: 173
Registered: 1-2011
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 8:02 pm: | |
After leaving sdaism, and explaining my reasoning for it to several sda's, I was forwarded a sermon from Dr. Walter Veith, which was regarding the 'thousands of errors' that are found in the Bible.
So I believed it was tit-for-tat, as I had just delineated some errors in EGW's writings when compared to the Bible.
Essentially my response was 'So what are you trying to say?' When asked, they suggested that I had been sent this for information purposes.
I think it was pretty obvious why it was sent.
We used to call ourselves 'People of the Book'... |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7669
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 8:55 pm: | |
Thousands?
There have been found a minute amount of copy errors on small words such as 'as' which do not effect doctrine in the least.
Is that man crazy? Or a fool?
River |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1583
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 6:55 am: | |
It is very sad how far one will go in order to defend a beloved, but false, prophet. Attacking and ultimately trampling the Word of God underfoot should be sufficient evidence of the fruit produced by this prophet's writings. |
Truman
Registered user
Username: Truman
Post Number: 32
Registered: 1-2012
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 12:42 pm: | |
Very interesting thread, and thanks to Goose for getting the ball rolling.
This brings up some questions I have for those of you who are expert theologians, regarding biblical errors - due to transcription, translation, etc.
I will start a new thread in the Members section. |
Goose
Registered user
Username: Goose
Post Number: 88
Registered: 11-2011
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 8:07 pm: | |
ASurprise, I wasn't intentionally attacking you, per se, but the canned cliche' "the Bible says." My meaning was that the Bible is a compilation of inspired writings and it is not the book itself that speaks, but the Living Word that inspired the writings. Does that help at all? Truly, I intended no criticism of you at all.
Ric, as far as my view of inspiration, it is somewhat personal and maybe unique. I hold that no matter what the personal biases of the authors were, God's intent--His sword of the Spirit--still gets through. Some folk have a real problem with some portions of the old testament depicting God as a villain,...having someone stoned to death for picking up sticks, for instance. I have always had a problem with that, and I have found some relief when I consider the words of Jesus:
"You have heard that it has been said, 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,' yet I say unto you..."
My understanding of inspiration is that it is like breathing. Oxygen in, and oxygen out,... but attached with a bit of carbon dioxide.
God breathed into humans, truth. And God's Word is so powerful, it can get through even human bias and prejudice.
(Message edited by goose on January 31, 2012) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13369
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 10:28 pm: | |
Walt, check out the sermons in this collection: http://www.truthcasting.com/player.aspx#showSubChannel=1393
Check out especially "Did the Canon Misfire?", "Da Vinci and the Bible", "Were Some of the Books 'Banned from the Bible'", and "Did the First Christians Rewrite History?"
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1589
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 4:58 pm: | |
Goose,
I was asking because the difference in understanding of inspiration would have a big difference in how we viewed using "the Word says" or "the Bible says". I think that our definition of inspiration is a foundational assumption for many other understandings. And I will acknowledge that it is an assumption, the only proofs ultimately rely on circular reasoning back to the document in question. For the reasons I stated in the other thread, I believe that the assumptions underlying verbal plenary inspiration make the most logical sense and have the highest practical value.
But I think it is important to know where the person you are talking with on this subject is coming from, otherwise we do a great deal of talking past each other. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2387
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 5:40 pm: | |
Goose; sorry for reacting so strongly. I guess I reacted that strongly
because a certain poster (not you) has been giving me such a difficult
time, and I've gotten fed up to here - making horizontal motion
with my hand across the top of my forehead - with this person's
attacks.
There's nothing wrong with the words: "The Bible says." After all,
Jesus said essentially the same thing when He said: "It is written."
Both of those phrases have been used by the SDA church to promote
their version of false doctrine and I think that must be what you're
reacting to. All of us who were SDAs were pounded with those
un-biblical doctrines!  |
Goose
Registered user
Username: Goose
Post Number: 89
Registered: 11-2011
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 9:39 pm: | |
Colleen, thank you for the link. I listened to part of one of them and liked it so much I am burning CDs to take with me, for the drive to the FOF Conference. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13380
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2012 - 8:44 pm: | |
Great! We're looking forward to seeing you, and you'll have great teaching to keep you company!
Colleen |
