| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2331 Registered: 7-2007 |
It grieves me to hear of someone leaving the SDA church, only to go into another cult. When I say something against another of the cults, I'm saying it out of concern for the ones IN the cults. I don't want anyone to be lost and if someone doesn't accept Jesus' finished work for ANY reason, whether they think they have to "push out their sins with Jesus' power before they can be saved" like the SDAs believe, or whether they believe that have to make sure they "confess their sins, pay their penance and go to mass, etc." before they can be saved, or whatever they think they have to do first; they won't be saved if they don't accept Jesus' finished work.  | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 110 Registered: 10-2010 |
Yea, I know exactly what you are talking about. this is what had happened to me. But it was a little different. As a teenager I was involved with the Mormon church. Then when I turned 23, I then went into the SDA church. Then I had met a SDA lady when I moved to FL, who was SDA but who was involved with the Messianic group. She had introduced me to it. When I had moved to a different city here in FL, the Jehovah Witnesses started visiting me. Yes, I did study with them for more than a year but I never fully committed myself to them. They wanted me to become a baptized witness but I had declined. The last 29 years for me has been very cyclical as far as going from one religion to another. And yes, each one in its own way has been toxic in my life. It wasn't until I met a real christian lady who had the patience and worked me through my various issues by using the Bible and lead me into a rich relationship with Jesus Christ and to a caring church in the area. What do I say about that Hallejuah!!!! | ||
| Got2bfree Registered user Username: Got2bfree Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2011 |
Alison, what a testimony! Thank you for sharing. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2333 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, thank-you for sharing! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9586 Registered: 3-2004  |
Alison1, what a story you have to tell, in detail. The only good thing about it is that God was with you all the way and I thank Him for that. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13327 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thank you, Alison. Your story is actually not uncommon, and thank you for telling us how a relationship with Jesus stopped the cyclic craziness. He IS truth and stability and our sure Anchor. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7613 Registered: 9-2006  |
Just because a church is traditionalist does not mean that equates to a cult. The traditionalist has a hard time (but not impossible) of the same thing, lumping all protestants together with JW, Adventist alike. After all, they let the church decide matters of doctrine and all they see is twenty thousand different doctrines out here. I think it may be a mistake on both sides to tend to lump traditionalist or protestants as cultist. What they (traditionlist) (Catholic/Eastern Orthodox does not see is the tie that binds true protestant Christians together and that is the cross of Christ and his finished work. Asurprise, I understand your zeal, as one who was saved so suddenly too. I sometimes let my zeal get me into all kinds of trouble as you all witnessed recently, it caused deep hurt and I have been paying ever since. Now I am telling you as gentle as I possibly can, we have all walks of faith on this forum, so please leave off with the Catholic bashing. River | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 327 Registered: 2-2011 |
~River~ There is an old 'saying' that my Father use to quote~ that relates to your post, I think~ "When is it time to STOP Beating a dead horse?" ~mj~ | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1500 Registered: 7-2004  |
There is always a difficult challenge to navigate regarding our posts here. I have experience as one who has offended people I never intended to offend. We are here to support one another, and that includes accepting choices that others have made that we don't personally agree with. We are here to support one another in our Christian growth. That can mean lovingly challenging someone we believe is heading into trouble. Sometimes we disagree on what constitutes someone heading in to trouble. Our care and responsibility for one another requires us to carefully balance these two objectives. Some of us do it better than others. All of us do it better some times than other times. We must practice extending grace to our brothers and sisters here. (And I include myself front and center in all the "we" "our" and "us" statements). There is a Scriptural model for speaking up to an erring brother, and we don't always follow that. We must also consider our credibility. If I proclaim that SDAs need to leave their church because it teaches a false Trinity, do I have a credible voice if I am not expressing the exact same concern to a Former who is contemplating joining a Oneness congregation? I don't think it is healthy for us to be duplicitous, treating the same error differently depending on whether it occurs within the framework of SDAism or outside that framework. BUT, I know I can do a better job of how I discuss that with my brothers and sisters here including the realization that the process out of SDAism is a journey that all of us are still on. So allow me to say, if I have challenged you it is only because I love you. But if I offended you along the way, I'm sorry. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1767 Registered: 12-2007  |
Well said Ric  | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2337 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thank-you Ric, for your sweet post. River, I am NOT bashing Catholics. I love Catholics and all the lost with all my heart. That is why it is sooooooo important to point out to them that they are in a cult, as someone did for me. As you well know Catholics can NOT say they are saved just like an sda cannot say they are saved. Because both do not recognize the FINISHED WORK of Jesus on the cross, as you pointed out. Catholics do not have a Biblical Jesus, Who died ONCE for all…but a victim jesus, who is sacrificed thousands of times a week at every celebration of the catholic SACRIFICE of the mass. They do not believe there is no more sacrifice for sin. Catholics receive “grace” from the sacraments of baptism…they believe in infant baptism, marriage or ordination, confessing their sins to a priest and then doing penance and after death FINISH PAYING for their sins in PURGATORY. They believe that their sacrament of communion actually contains the physical body and blood of Jesus. Transubstantiation. They still have a priesthood just like the mormons to mediate between man and God. The New Covenant says WE can boldly go to the throne of God ….our only mediator is Jesus not a priest or Mary. I love Catholics. I want them to come out of a false religious system and have a true relationship with Jesus based on His finished work alone and not on their confession to a priest and penance and purgatory. I want them to live by the Word of God alone and not by the word of the pope or the traditions of man. I hate catholic DOCTRINE, as it is leads many people to eternal life without Jesus. Do not let their rhetoric deceive you. They are a false religious system every bit as much as the lds or sda. They also teach doctrines of demons …forbidding to eat meat on Fridays and holy days of obligation and forbidding their priests to marry. They pray the rosary to Mary, using vain repetition like the heathen. They pray for the dead like the mormons. They will come to the end of their days and say, “did we not cast out demons in Your Name?”, as is the practice of catholic priests and they will hear the saddest words, one can hear. “Depart from Me, I never knew you.” Do not let your friendship for Catholics deter you from telling them the truth …. that is most certainly not love. Love is telling them the true gospel so they will come out from among them and know Jesus, as Savior and Lord. Mike Gendron, a former catholic is working as hard to bring the good news of the genuine gospel to Catholics as Dale Ratzlaff is to bring the true gospel to sda’s. I know there are former sda’s who have gone from that cult into the catholic cult on this forum and they need to hear the truth that will set them free. How many more will leave sda and go into Catholicism because no one speaks the truth about them on this forum???? River, if you do not contend for the true faith and let these people live and die in deception, then you may keep their friendship and lose their souls. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7616 Registered: 9-2006 |
I have never seen constant badgering set anybody free. Well,I asked you nicely, if you don't, you don't and there's nothing I can do about it. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2338 Registered: 7-2007 |
River; you could have said: "yes, I know that Roman Catholicism is a false religion and yes I know that they need to be told the truth; but I don't agree with your 'badgering methods.'" | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2339 Registered: 7-2007 |
River, here's a post you wrote under a thread you started (in 2008) called: "Why I don't debate with Catholics" (So I guess I can "see" though I don't agree with not confronting them with their danger.) quote from River: Asurprise, you said you wanted me to think so here is the reason I won’t argue with a Catholic. If you do not consider the Bible as the final authority on things religious I do not feel there is a basis for debate. The most of us here feel that the word of God, the Bible, is the final authority and so we can debate points of scripture because that is our basis for debate. Here are some straight answers to you just in case you think I am wishy washy about this or that. Do I believe Catholism is Christian? No. On March 25, 1999, Pope John-Paul II, the spiritual leader of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, called upon the world's 404,000 priests to teach the faithful how to pray. In obedience to the holy Pontiff, "The Catholic Doors Ministry" has put together hundreds of Catholic prayers to compile "A Treasure Of Catholic Prayers." Below is a sample of Catholic prayers and despite what Marysroses says, they are taught to these things. O glorious St. Joseph, to you God committed the care of His only begotten Son amid the many dangers of this world. We come to you and ask you to take under your special protection the children God has given us. Through holy baptism they became children of God and members of His holy Church. We consecrate them to you today, that through this consecration they may become your foster children. Guard them, guide their steps in life, form their hearts after the hearts of Jesus and Mary. St. Joseph, who felt the tribulation and worry of a parent when the child Jesus was lost, protect our dear children for time and eternity. May you be their father and counsellor. Let them, like Jeus, grow in age as well as in wisdom and grace before God and men. Preserve them from the corruption of his world, and give us the grace one day to be united with them in Heaven forever. Amen. A snippet from a universal prayer. May Thy grace help me to be submissive to my superiors, condescending to my inferiors, faithful to my friends, and charitable to my enemies. We protestants would be the inferiors that they are condescending to. Asnippit from a prayer to Mary. Come then Virgin Most Pure, and embrace us with Your motherly mantle. Make our hearts whiter than snow and as pure as a spring of fresh water. Teach us to pray, so that our prayers may become more beautiful than the singing of the birds at the break of dawn. Dear Mother Mary, we entrust to Your Immaculate Heart of hearts, our family and our entire future. Lead us all to our homeland which is Heaven. A snippit from a prayer to Mary for the sick. O kind and good Mother, whose own soul was pierced by the sword of sorrow, look upon us while, in our sickness, we arraign ourselves beside you on the Calvary where your Jesus hangs. They will claim they don’t worship statues, you make up your own mind. Jesus does not hang on the cross, he is risen. A prayer of consecration to Mary. My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen. A prayer to Saint Anne. O Good and merciful Saint Anne, in order to honour you with more zeal, and pray to you with more confidence, I come to consecrate myself to you, for time and for eternity. Hence I choose you, after the most Blessed Virgin, for my spiritual mother, and my protectress before God. I place in your keep my body and my soul, my temporal needs and my eternal interests. I consecrate my mind to you, that you may enlighten me in all things, with the light of faith; my heart, that you may keep it full of love for Jesus and Mary; my will, that you may forever keep it subsmissive to that of God; and my body, that you may make it forever the temple of the Holy Ghost. Obtain for me, O Good Saint Anne, the grace to fulfil faithfully, after your example, all the duties of my state of life and to practise, like you, all the virtues necessary to my salvation. Grant that after having honoured and loved you on earth, O dear and Good Saint Anne, I may one day go to glorify you, with God, Mary, the saints and the angels, during all eternity. Amen. Another prayer to St. Joseph. O glorious St. Joseph, to you God committed the care of His only begotten Son amid the many dangers of this world. We come to you and ask you to take under your special protection the children God has given us. Through holy baptism they became children of God and members of His holy Church. We consecrate them to you today, that through this consecration they may become your foster children. Guard them, guide their steps in life, form their hearts after the hearts of Jesus and Mary. St. Joseph, who felt the tribulation and worry of a parent when the child Jesus was lost, protect our dear children for time and eternity. May you be their father and counselor. let them, like Jesus, grow in age as well as in wisdom and grace before God and men. Preserve them from the corruption of this world, and give us the grace one day to be united with them in heaven forever. Amen. On Sunday, October 8, 2000, at the conclusion of the Jubilee of the Bishops, Pope John Paul II and the bishops entrusted themselves and the Church in the new millennium to Mary. Here is just a snippit from that prayer. 3. Today we wish to entrust to you the future that awaits us, and we ask you to be with us on our way. Another prayer to Mary. My Queen! my Mother! I give thee all myself, and, to show my devotion to thee, I consecrate to thee my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self. Wherefore, O loving Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, defend me, as thy property and possession. Now I could go on and on but what would be the point, they as the Adventists claim Jesus on the one hand and on the other, well, it is a mix of worship and prayer to others. For one more example here is another prayer to Mary. O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee. Holy Mary, pray for us! Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death. Sweet Heart of Mary, be my salvation! Our Lady, Queen of Peace, pray for us! Here the Catholic ask Mary to be their Salvation. It gives me an empty feeling just to repeat this stuff, I had to read it in order to present it here and it’s rough. To even discuss this stuff reminds me of this scripture. Ephesians 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. I am not presenting this in some sort of “I gottcha” attitude but we need to face up to things that are out there and face it head on when the time comes and it seems to me that time has come. Now the Catholic will tell me “River you just don’t understand.” Whats not to understand? So where is there a basis for debate? The most of us take the Bible as the final authority, we may not understand every whit of scripture and we may disagree on certain vague points of scripture but we are prepared to accept clarity of scripture as it comes. Love does not ignore Bible heresy. If we are to continue to grow into maturity we must continue to hold forth Gods word, the Bible as truth. Not to attack another’s religion, but to bring clarity of the application of the pure milk of the word, if we don’t then it gets to be “anything goes” just as long as it includes words such as “God loves everyone”. Yes he does, but not everything is justified before God as truth. His word is truth. The Bible is not a mix of this that and the other, but is the word of God and there is enough clarity in the New Testament to ascertain that we are saved or how we are to attain salvation. The old Testament coupled with the New Testament is the whole word of God and from reading the book of Revelations I believe the cannons to be closed. So you see, if someone doesn’t believe the word of God, the Bible, I have no basis for debate, I am forced to consider that person as an unbeliever. First things first and then I will debate if I honestly feel the need should arise. My opinion is that if we pray we need to pray to God and not a plethora of other things or persona just in case we missed something. I said I would go down to the Catholic church if the occasion arose, but it would only be as an observer. Yes I can love a Catholic, but I cannot debate without a basis for debate so the only thing left is love for the person who comes my way. Now information on Catholism is so readily available that just about any person can come to their own conclusions, I merely present the prayers that they pray and are taught to pray for your inspection, this alone is enough to ascertain as to whether it is Christian or not. In my own opinion it is not. I am open to different thoughts and criticisms here, I have voiced my opinion on this because I have felt it has become necessary to weigh in because of what has been said. Am I a hypocrite because I refuse to challenge and go into debate with every false doctrine there is? I don't feel that I am, I just try to pick my way through this jungle and fight where appropriate. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2340 Registered: 7-2007 |
And River, here's another post you wrote, in a thread called: "NEW WEBSITE!" Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 9:23 am: Quote: Sociologically Catholism is not a cult (that which is normative in a given society). Theologically it is a cult. It is truly the oldest Christian cult in the world. It has every indication of a cult even perhaps more than Adventism. Adventism tries harder to hide its teachings from the Christian world because it wants to be accepted by the Christian world, while Catholism flaunts it openly before the world and without apology and does not want to be accepted by the Christian world, but demands that the Christian world convert before being accepted by them. Any person that denies this is just fooling himself. Once there was an evil magician who hated the railroad and he hated the trains that traveled on the railroad. He thought to himself “I want to derail the train, but if I take up the railroad tracks they will see that and be warned” so what I will do, I will go to a switch and create an illusion of the original railroad tracks so that when the train is derailed they will never know it and I will send them to their death.” As illustrated in U2’s amazing Adventures one and two in the discussion section there are good sounding words mixed in with the lessons. That to me is the telling mark of a cult, it has many words, claims it adheres to scripture but does not. The foremost argument offered by the Christian church is sole authority of scripture. The cults, while affirming the validity of scripture as sole authority add their own authorities to it just the same as the Adventist church adds Ellen White and the authority of Sabbath keeping to the Bible. The Adventist church claims itself as the one and only true church, the Catholic claims the very same thing. The Catholic claims scripture but it also has other criteria that it says are equal to Scripture: tradition, and the teaching authority of the Church. Like the other aberrant "Christian" cults, they say Scripture is the primary source of all revelation, but in practice its teachings affirms that *its* interpretation of Scripture is the only valid basis upon which all truth resides and upon which its other authorities rest. It claims it Popes and Bishops as the successors to the Apostles and both Scripture and Tradition are honored equally. The Christians reformation voice of sola scriptura is our refuge from religious tyranny and bondage and it is our safeguard from being able to be derailed by every wind of doctrine whether it be the church of our choice we attend weekly or any other church or denomination. Without sola scriptura I myself would have been sucked into Adventism now going on six years ago, the strong pull to the Adventist church is the Sabbath and if you don’t believe there is a strong pull there you are just fooling yourself. Once abandoning sola scriptura one is a candidate for the derailment of this entity who will pull the switch and you will never know it. So we have Exclusivity (mother church), Extra Biblical Revelation, False Basis of Salvation, Uncertain Hope, Presumptuous Messianic Leadership (Pope) Doctrinal Ambiguity i.e. Noah and the Ark and other Biblical miracles, Claims of Special Discoveries (letter of oration and others), Defective Christology, Segmented Biblical Attention, Enslaving Organizational Structures, Financial Exploitation, and on and on. The Catholic church has every earmark of a cult. To not drag this on in the presenting of innumerable evidences of its cultic practices, its like colleen just said about these Adventist programs “It much more serious than you think” What “got my goat” as my grandpappy used to say, here is that Steve made this accusation to Handmaiden “"Everything that defines a cult applies to the catholic church as well" is not only incorrect by definition, but an outright lie.” The thing that got to me about his all of a sudden angry attack on her was that we haven’t given Handmaiden the chance to get to know her a little bit, I have not seen any of us so far just jumping right in and attacking a new member in this fashion without waiting to see what she is really like. Why, because she spoke up on Catholism? This doesn’t have a thing to do with Maryroses, but it does have to do with waiting a little while before getting into such disagreement with her, I thought at least she would have a chance to get into why she feels the way she does. Now I know the first thing someone is going to try to do is to try to remind of my attack on skyrocket or whoever the heck he went by, that ain’t going to work before you say it, so don’t. I haven’t heard Handmaiden denying the savior or denying his word or integrity, so I don’t think it was justified in being so quick to call her and out right liar. I have never heard someone accuse someone of lying on here before. I am not speaking for Handmaiden or against her, I was just disappointed that we didn’t get to know her a little better. I didn’t see anybody ask her or wait until she was able to tell about her life a little and sometimes with times the wounds are exposed through the normal course of conversation. I am not speaking against Steve here either, I know very well the swamp he has to wade through and has had to wade through to get to any sort of dry ground. Far as I’m concerned the crap we’ve all had to wade through ain’t fit for a dog much less a human being. I’m just telling you I am disappointed is all, you all can take it how you like it, but I would personally like to see some amends made and start over, maybe during the course of time we might discover what makes Handmaiden the way she is. I’m saying Steve that that was a little rough way to treat a new member who loves the Lord with all her heart don’t you think? Coming on this form is a little like getting married, it takes time to adjust to one another. I am not saying I am not guilty of these very same things. Marysroses leaving is on Maryroses, she has been on here long enough to know whats what, I have ragged Marysroses about Catholics, but she also knew that I held not a bit of animosity toward her as a Catholic and she should have known when she felt offended by others and let the love she claimed to have run its course, she didn’t and I regret it, but is not on the forum its on her to let love run its course in spite of the obstacles. If the love that you claim or that of anyone else is going to be derailed by every obstacle that gets in the way I tell you the truth I don’t want it or need it. We are a community of believers, a community of faith and theology should be done as a community and you can take it to the bank we are going to disagree. Now Leigh Anne ask rightly what’s happened here, where is the forum? Leigh Anne the forum you ask about is still here, but I think there is a need to each examine ourselves and let go and let God at least a little bit, don’t you think? After some time the ones that stick with the forum get to know one another and we learn to make allowances for one another, but that is only because of the love of Christ taking the reins of our hearts, its got nothing to do with how great we are, but how great Jesus is to bear with us in our faults and failures and that is the love we pass on and feel toward one another, But this that has come in here is mistrust and animosity seems to me like. Colleen mentioned the differences that exist between many of us and Jeremiah, but Jeremiah knows what the Love of God is and I recognize that in him. I have a picture of Jeremiah as being bigger than easily offended by my batting the old theological ball around with him, if I thought he wasn’t up to it I wouldn’t do it. I really think highly of Jeremiah. I don’t know what yall will think of this, I don’t imagine I will get top billing, I ask for prayer for my Aunt yesterday in post 3512 and not a one of you, not even Colleen acknowledged that request so I don’t reckon what I got to say today will get much billing neither, you’ll probably be too busy thinking up a good retort. I support this forum with time and effort and finances, not much, but some, a lot more time and effort than finances, my wife accuses me of being married to my office. Maybe I have built up a ministry that looks like the devils railroad, just an illusion. I need to pray about that so I am going to seek God the best I can about it. Steve claims his BS alarm went off and that gives him the right to be cruel to a new guest, what I think is that you are an angry man Steve and no more than that. I have sensed that in you lately, I don’t know the reason and I don’t judge you for it, I know you well enough to know there is a reason and I should have prayed for you on account of it, but me, I’m too stupid to know when I should pray until it hits me upside the head. I let you down and I’m so sorry. You may not like what I said, but you said you have the right to call’em as you see’s um, well I called’em as I seen’um. I really got a heavy heart right now and ain’t nothing you can come down on me about to make it any heavier. River (Message edited by Asurprise on January 19, 2012) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7618 Registered: 9-2006 |
I've said a lot of things on this forum I've regretted. I've been thoughtless and cruel and I don't intend to give excuses for it, it is inexcusable and nothing short of repentance and begging forgiveness will do. I'm not sitting here saying I haven't made mistakes, so theres no use dragging up old post and rehashing old issues. I said I understood your zeal,I'm not trying to hurt you, I just didn't know any other way to put it other than just ask you straight up. If it sounded unkind I regret it. Like I said, if you don't, you don't. River | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1503 Registered: 7-2004 |
River, Like you, I have said things here I wish I could go back and say a different way. Asurprise, I don't believe River is attacking you, I believe he is only trying to pass along something he learned through painful experience. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7619 Registered: 9-2006 |
In Matthew 12:19-20 there is a little discussed scripture that I am not sure I understand to its fullest, but it goes like this. Matthew 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. The key thing I want to explore in the scriptures is the bruised reed and the smoking (dimly lit) flax. In my own perhaps poor understanding of it, what the prophecy is saying about Jesus is that he will not break the broken (bent) nor put out the dimly lit. The feeling I get from the scripture is that Jesus would not break the already bruised, nor would he put out the already dimly lit flames of those around him. Many of those around us have been brusied already, and many have such a dim light that it would appear as a smoking flax, and if you step on them, you might break their spirit, or of you squeeze them between your fingers, the dim light they have may go out. So many times I have found myself the opposite of what Jesus is, and therefore in opposition to him. Harsh, hard, sharp or pressing, not comfortable, gracious or pleasant. I know how to contend for the faith, and I am doing my best to know when. We get it Asurprise. River | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 330 Registered: 2-2011 |
~I think we ALL~ "get it!" Now, can we put away the hammers and put on the 'velvet gloves'?! ~mj~ | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7621 Registered: 9-2006 |
I'm for that sweetie. |
