| Author | Message | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1771 Registered: 12-2007  |
Yes Monica,  for all of us it is a journey of learning as well as UNlearning the things we now know to be error. Asurprise, I agree that we are to preach truth. And I fully intend to continue to do so whenever I have an opportunity to do it in love. I believe there is a time to speak and a time to keep silent, and to pray that we will know the right time for each. But.... trying to "preach truth" to someone who is not yet willing to listen to it only causes them to put up defense barriers, making it even harder to get through to them. (At least that is what I have found in my personal experiences). I think sometimes when we first come out of Adventism, we are so excited about the things we have learned and wanting so badly to share our newly found freedom in Christ with those we love so that they may have that same joy...that I think sometimes we try and "force" information on them that they are not yet ready or willing to hear, and in THOSE cases, it is best to take it slowly... watch and listen for opportunities to share here and there as we can and hopefully peak their curiosity enough that THEY will come to US and ask questions. Let them know that we are always willing to study the Bible with them but don't force it on them. Might as well preach truth to a brick wall if they are not ready to listen. That is where I think we need to learn patience, and wait on the Holy Spirit to lead us to those who are willing to hear, to let us speak with boldness, and yet with humility and ALWAYS in love. | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2012 |
Asurprise, I enjoy reading your comments, and can often relate to your experiences. In this particular thread, I believe you missed my main points and responded to points I wasn't even making. I'm devastated! (lol, just kidding, but please play along...) Example: I never said we should share the gospel ONLY by example. However, when I read something like John 13:35, "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another", I'm convinced that living by example is a key component of sharing the gospel. Let me try to list my main points, a bit more concisely: 1. In my experience, most people are turned off by "attack mode" evangelism. So my thought is to share the true gospel, by example AND words, by...drum roll... sharing the message of the true gospel! As opposed to, for example, constantly telling people they are wrong and going to hell. (Not saying that's what you are doing, but it may come across that way to some.) Again, it was just a thought, and I understand you may prefer your method, based on your experience. 2. A general comment that if you (or any of us) are debating serious Catholics, come prepared. (Note: I am not Catholic, so no need to post your arguments here. I was just sharing some of my experiences.) If you want to get a good laugh from a Catholic scholar, try telling him/her that "Your church didn't start until 300 A.D." They believe their church started with Peter and the apostles. Just because Constantinople made a law in 300 A.D. doesn't mean there was no "true Church" (which they believe they are) before then. And the early Christian church (yes - many leaders/writers were Jews, though still Christian if they believed Jesus was The Christ, no?) determined what to include as NT scripture. Your comment about apostles calling each others' writings "scripture" would only reinforce the Catholics' point. Again, just some thoughts. We all have our perspectives, and certainly mine are no more "right." One more view from here is that we can not judge or determine which individuals will be saved - regardless of their religious affiliation. I think of the parable of the sheep and the goats. Have a great week! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2351 Registered: 7-2007 |
When Jesus said "I have other sheep that are not of this fold," He was talking to Jewish people who thought that ONLY Jewish people could get saved. Jews didn't think that any one from another nation could get saved. The "other folds" were the other nations. Gentiles were "unclean" after all! The "sheep" and the "goats" are obvious. If a person is saved, but is in a cult, he or she is on their way out. The "wheat and the tares" refers to Christians and non-Christians that are both in a real Christian church. The ONLY thing that matters is whether a person is trusting in the genuine, Biblical Jesus' finished work! To find out if someone is saved, ask them: "Who do you say Jesus is and what did He do on the cross?" Ask them: "Did He finish the work of salvation or did He just open the door?" "Did he die once for all or does He have to be sacrificed over and over again?" "Was He resurrected, or is He still on the cross?" "Is He Michael the archangel?" "Is He the brother of Satan?" "Was He just a good man/prophet?" "Is He a myth or did He ever even exist?" "Is He your Savior or is He your investigator?" Who do you say Jesus is and what did He do on the cross? That is the most important question of your life. A person can have Jesus right and everything else wrong and be saved; but if he has everything else right and Jesus wrong, he's lost. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1512 Registered: 7-2004  |
Asurprise, You insist on plenty of specific answers in order for a person to be saved that I haven't found in Scripture. Do you have some verses to support each of those required answers? In our zeal to proclaim the truth, let's be careful that we don't add to Scriptures ourselves. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1776 Registered: 12-2007 |
What about....? "Romans 10:8-10 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes,resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses,resulting in salvation." | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1514 Registered: 7-2004 |
Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:30, 31 ESV) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1777 Registered: 12-2007 |
I have often wondered about that verse. I LOVE what it says.. the part "you AND your household". Is it possible for others in our "household" to be saved through the belief of one ? I know I pray constantly for the salvation of family members that the Holy Spirit will speak to their hearts and get through to them where my often faltering words cannot. And by "household" would that include only those living under the same literal roof... or extended family as well ? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7635 Registered: 9-2006  |
Skeeter, I think it means all who are in the house who believe on the Lord Jesus. I may be wrong too. Faith to move mountains is sometimes prevalent in a simple child like and an humble and believing heart. So there's not a thing wrong with believing God for just how it reads. I'm believing God for my children and my grand children. River | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1778 Registered: 12-2007 |
River : "So there's not a thing wrong with believing God for just how it reads. I'm believing God for my children and my grand children. " So am I River, so am I <3 | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2354 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric_b; you and Skeeter answered your question. You said: quote: "Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:30, 31 ESV)" And Skeeter said: quote: "What about....? "Romans 10:8-10 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes,resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses,resulting in salvation." All I was pointing out was the objections that the false religions say... A. SDAs and RCCs believe that Jesus just opened the door. B. RCCs believe that He has to be sacrificed over and over again. C. The Muslims don't believe that He was resurrected. In fact, they don't believe that He didn't even die on the cross. They believe a substitute was put in His place. D. SDAs and JWs believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. E. LDS believe that Jesus is the brother of satan. F. Muslims believe that Jesus was just a prophet. G. Atheists believe Jesus was a myth. H. SDAs believe that Jesus is their investigator. So, yes; it's vitally important Who someone believes Jesus is. As for some verses: "He [Jesus] said to them, 'But Who do you say that I am?' Peter answered and said, 'The Christ of God.'" Luke 9:20 "So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head He gave up His spirit." John 19:30 "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10 | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1779 Registered: 12-2007 |
Asurprise, what I meant by posting that verse from Romans is,,, can't we accept that it really IS that simple ? Couldn't we when speaking to people just inquire of them those 2 things ? If they confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and if they believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead..? Do we really need to ask ALL these questions: 1. "Who do you say Jesus is and what did He do on the cross?" 2."Did He finish the work of salvation or did He just open the door?" 3."Did he die once for all or does He have to be sacrificed over and over again?" 4."Was He resurrected, or is He still on the cross?" 5."Is He Michael the archangel?" 6."Is He the brother of Satan?" 7."Was He just a good man/prophet?" 8."Is He a myth or did He ever even exist?" 9."Is He your Savior or is He your investigator?" While I agree those are all important things.. If someone were to come up to me and start asking those questions, I would be quite offended and feel like I was under interrogation. They may be important points to discuss as a relationship develops with people, but I hope that I misunderstood and that you would not recommend pointedly asking those things of someone you are just getting to know. (?) It just seems to come across as very "in your face" harsh the way it is worded. I realize it is hard to know the "tone" of what is being said when reading posts. Nothing beats person to person, face to face, being able to see facial expressions, hear tone of voice, etc. so if I have misunderstood I apologize. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1520 Registered: 7-2004 |
Skeeter and River, Noah's family was saved through Noah. Covenant Theology explains this through the idea of federal headship. I have a little problem with rewording the passage in Acts to be He and his believing family members. I'm an advocate of accepting that what is written is what is meant. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1521 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, I simply wanted to point out that Paul's list of questions seems shorter than yours. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2357 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric_b and Skeeter; I didn't mean that you have to actually ask all those questions. I simply was taking the long way to explain how the various cults have a wrong Jesus. Let me try a shorter way instead.... 1. SDAs have an investigator. 2. RCs have a victim. 3. LDSs have a created being. 4. Muslims have a man/prophet. 5. Atheists have a myth. If I was still an SDA when someone asked me if I believed that Jesus is Lord, I would have said YES! but I still would have been lost. I'm simply saying that a person needs to "dig" a little deeper when they're witnessing and make sure that the person is saved! (Only the right Jesus can save!) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1525 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, It is mynfear that you are adding to the Scriptural requirements for salvation and turning salvation into a work, albeit the work of a theology exam. Does your right Jesus also require that we believe in the Jesus who saves us by offering us a free will choice to follow Him? Or perhaps the true Jesus is the one Who has chosen His followers, and anyone believing that they chose Jesus is following a false Jesus. Does believing in the right Jesus require believing in an "age of accountability". Are people unsaved if they reject the age of accountability teaching as being a fabrication of men because it is not mentioned in Scripture? Does believing in the right Jesus require believing in the Jesus who will rapture the church and re-establish Israel as His Holy Nation? Does believing in the right Jesus require believing in the Jesus Who is the Sabbath rest and replaced all commands about observing a day? Does believing in the right Jesus mean believing in the Jesus who provides the gift of tongues to all true believers as a sign gift? How many doctrines do you want to attach to the right Jesus, | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1526 Registered: 7-2004 |
And I am not arguing about whether these groups have false teachings about Christ, I am asking what Scripture says regarding the requirements for people to be saved. It is my contention that people are saved by faith, even when they don't fully understand the object of their faith. When a person is saved, they are born again and God places His living Spirit in the believer. The Spirit in the believer guides the believer into truth, guiding them to greater and greater understanding of the object of their faith. If someone had to understand everything correctly about God before they could be saved and born of the Spirit, how could anyone ever be saved? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2359 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric; all I'm saying is to not assume someone is saved because they say they believe in Jesus. All the cults - including Muslims(!) - say that. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1530 Registered: 7-2004 |
And I guess all that I am saying is don't assume that someone isn't (or can't possibly be) saved just because they don't currently have the depth of theological understanding that you now have. It never hurts to proclaim the good news of the Gospel, because everyone who knows it loves to hear it again, and everyone who doesn't know it needs to hear it. But it isn't proclaiming the Gospel to simply reel off a list announcing all the reasons why a person couldn't possibly be truly saved in their current state. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2360 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric-b; The genuine Biblical Jesus is Almighty God, Who became a man, taking on human flesh, fully God and fully man. He is the only One Who could mediate between God and man. He being sinless and willing through the shedding of His blood became the full sacrificial payment for all of mankind's sin. Jesus, Who finished the atonement on the cross, giving salvation as a free gift to all those who believe. Those who trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus and are not trusting in themselves or their works. The rest ...free will, rapture, tongues, age accountability...is debatable not salvational. You do not have to understand everything to be saved but you have to believe in a Jesus that actually CAN save you and NOT in a Jesus who cannot save you.... because he is not God or he is a victim or he did not finish the work of salvation.... | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1782 Registered: 12-2007 |
YES !!!!! At last....... Agree, Agree, Agree |
