| Author | Message | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 289 Registered: 2-2008 |
Happy Thanksgiving !!! Chris | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2262 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; I think you're missing the point. Either a person is accepting Jesus for salvation or they're not. When you boil down the pseudo-Christian religions, you get a business deal. "I do my part and God does His part." It actually boils down to "earning" a wage - in this case, salvation. What do I mean? Take the Roman Catholic church for example. If one goes to mass, confesses to a priest and I don't know what else; then the person can figure they'll eventually wind up in Heaven. Adventism is more subtle. They believe that Jesus gives them the "strength to overcome sin," and that if they are either in the process of "overcoming" or have overcome "in Christ's strength," they'll be saved. Neither religion teaches that a person has BEEN saved. Neither religion teaches that a person is saved NOW. No, you have to "keep on overcoming" and IF you DO that, then perhaps you'll be saved. So the Seventh-day Adventist has to: 1. Keep trying to keep the Sabbath. 2. Keep striving to keep progressing - such as reading the labels on cans in the store to make sure one isn't eating any pork. Adventists believe they are doing all this through Jesus' strength. Ellen White said that the soul itself is the one that pushes out the sin and that they DO it in Jesus' strength. She taught that if the person keeps doing that, that they'll eventually be saved. She said that no one should say they are saved - in direct contradiction to the Bible, by the way. By contrast, a real Christian has accepted Jesus as his COMPLETE ATONEMENT. He knows that he cannot ADD anything to Jesus' finished work. Furthermore, God HIMSELF, literally dwells within the person, not just His power. Jim; I'd like to challenge you to sincerely ask God to show you His truth and if you really mean it, He will. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2263 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!  | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1430 Registered: 5-2007 |
I did not miss the point. Christ is our salvation, a finished work, a gift of grace. My point was aimed at not judging the intent and motives of other Christians. Nothing more complicated than that. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 646 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jim You said:
I'll try to represent your views as fair as I can, please tell me if I succeeded:
Your point is that idol worship is by default connected with willful disobedience, am I right? How did you come to this conclusion? Before hearing your reasons for connecting idol worship with willful disobedience, allow me to express how I arrived at the conclusion that sabbath-keeping is idol worship apart from the issue of motivation. From my perspective, either willful or not, adventist's keeping of the sabbath is idol worship. My definition of idolatry includes anything that replaces God's proper place, a change of position. Idol is anything that is more important than God, and more important than the central elements of the Christian faith. On another thread Ric expressed his view that adventists don't have an official theory of atonement. To my surprise even adventists authors may possibly agree with Rick, Martin Weber's book "Who's Got the Truth?" analyses 5 different views of the adventist gospel as they are found in the writings of prominent adventist authors. One of the 5 authors was Graham Maxwell, who believes in the influence theory of atonement, rejecting the penal substitutionary view. The point I'm trying to make is that all 5 authors are still adventists, and their views, as contrary as they are, are tolerated in the Adventist Church. Don't you think that atonement is central to the whole fabric of our faith? Also, you can believe that Jesus has a fallen human nature, loaded by sin, and still be an adventist in good standing. Even if you're a semi-arian you can still be an adventist if you're not too vocal about it. Also, you can still be an adventist even if you went back to the Old Covenant shadows as keeping the holy days of Israel, Pentecost, booths, etc. You will be seen as weird, of course, but you will not lose your membership. Bu you can't be an adventist and consider the sabbath a day as any other day. You can't be non-sabbatarian, it's going beyond the established bounds of the adventist identity. The sabbath is a central, essential, vital, crucial, element without which there is no adventist identity. I remember when I had read Ric's exit story, and what grabbed my attention was what disturbed him greatly about adventism. You can have contrary views about Jesus' human nature, you can have different views about His divinity (the arian and semi-arian pioneers of the SDA, James White, Uriah Smith, Joseph Bates are considered adventists and Christians, you can subscribe to different views of atonement, you can Judaize, and still be an adventist. Eliminate the sabbath, you're out. It strikes me as pretty obvious that sabbath has more importance than Jesus' person and work, more importance than subscribing to the galatian gospel with all the feasts. If something has more importance than Jesus, it takes Jesus' proper place, it takes the place of the gospel, it stands where it should not be. Don't you think that when the sabbath is more important than Jesus, it had become an idol? Notice that I'm not implying any willful disobedience, I'm not talking about issues of heart. I'm talking about the position of the SDA Church that in very practical terms established the sabbath as more important than Jesus and His work. Interesting is that Jesus told us to look at the fruit of the life of the religious leaders in order to evaluate their standing. If you look exclusively at what they believe, they may sound orthodox, Ok, but their deeds betray their true identity. And we are commended to evaluate these deeds and the fruits of these deeds, without fear that we are improperly judging the motivation of those leaders. Adventism is riddled with contradictory views of the central doctrines of Christianity, with very bad fruits, the members of the church are confused about what is central to Christianity, confused about Jesus' identity, etc. etc. Very bad fruit. According to Paul Martin, from 210 verses of the Bible concerning false teachers: 47% concern behavior (99 verses) 31 % concern fruit (66 verses) 12 % concern motive (24 verses) Only 10% concern doctrine (21 verses). I didn't checked this statistic, I don't know how much accurate it is. Still, from what I know, the statistic should not be far away from the truth. I think that if Walter Martin should have looked more to the deeds and fruits of the SDA Church, he would have evaluated it differently. And if he changes his views closely to his death, I tend to think that he looked more closely to the deeds and fruits of the SDA Church. Gabriel | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1071 Registered: 2-2008  |
"Bu you can't be an adventist and consider the sabbath a day as any other day. You can't be non-sabbatarian, it's going beyond the established bounds of the adventist identity. The sabbath is a central, essential, vital, crucial, element without which there is no adventist identity." Very well said Gabriel. The statistics you brought up are REALLY interesting! I also thought that what you said about evaluating the deeds and their fruits without "... fear that we are improperly judging the motivation of those leaders." is something I hadn't really thought about before. I know that within my thinking, I'm constantly trying to determine motive. But really... fruits reveal what's in the heart whether or not we know the motives. vivian | ||
| Tfelmon Registered user Username: Tfelmon Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2011 |
Grace-Alone No anger here, you may have read too much into my posts; possibly you've noticed my frustration with the imbalance I read in regards to the blogger about who this string started. Yes, this is my opinion and everyone is totally welcome to speak their mind regardless what I say. I'm not sure what you were trying to say by: “You keep saying "who cares?" but continue to get angrier and angrier with each post. Why do you care so much and why is it okay for you to care but not the rest of us?” I care for the blogger because many on this string have been painting the writer with a broad SDA brush of which I think is not fair nor is it accurate. Just sayin- | ||
| Tfelmon Registered user Username: Tfelmon Post Number: 71 Registered: 7-2011 |
Colleen, I understand your analogy, but don't think its a good fit when speaking about SDAs and Sabbath keeping. However, if that way of thinking has worked for you..great! | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 989 Registered: 5-2009 |
Gabriel, excellent post. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1431 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hello Gabriel, I will admitt to you that some of what your spoke of went a bit over my head. I will attempt to answer you within the context of my intended point. When I speak of SDA, in most instances , I refer to the rank and file member. When I read inferences that suggest accusations against the intent and motives of the individual, perhaps I take it from a personal perspective, reflecting upon the years I was a practicing SDA. Frankly, these supposed accusations and perceptions never even entered my mind, and I think it did not to other average SDA members either. As I alluded to before, the thought processes for most SDA (IMO) generally proceed from a conviction of the Ten Commandments being perpetual. Hence, being a so called "Sabbatarian" which in of itself is yet another label, kind of like "Sunday worshipers" is merely these people holding the entire 10C actively intact. They are not worshiping the Sabbath, they are attempting to keep it holy according to the law. It is not that they place it above Christ, they consider it a God command and because it is from God, it is binding on their hearts and minds. Am I defending their theology, no, I am not. Simply because I am still working through this personally myself. I have realized that they do not have a full understanding of doctrine (rank and file) and I am trying to learn these things. My point, I repeat, it is not our place to judge other Christians (rank and file) individualy with such accusations. Because we as humans are not equiped to make such judgements. Paul speaks of being equipped to make Spiritual judgments, I get that. However, he said to avoid judging one another over disputable matters. Now as far as the SDA system, the leadership, it's system of agendas and official doctrines. That is entirely another matter. I agree, it is one seriously confused and arbitray system based more upon it's own internal traditions as much as anything else. Yet, I do not wish to categorically waive away all things SDA. They too have truths. Just not sure which are which. The greatest thing I have been striving to do is reading the Bible for what it says. I am not the same person I was. Nor do I feel that I have discovered my settled stance. I think what it boils down too is that I am sensitive to aggressive statements against other Christian faiths. Indeed there may be a truth to point out, and error to uncover. So be it. Do you ever have to deal with the public? There is a way that is approachable, and there is a way that generates defensiveness. Cleary, some things require agression and firmness. But in my mind, those situations are evident. The gray area is when it goes to judging others hearts when we see them worshiping God differently because they comprehend scripture another way. Paul says they have a weak conscience. I think he is saying, how about cutting them some slack. Jim (Message edited by jim02 on November 25, 2011) | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 647 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jim My point was that on the scale of importance the Adventists place the sabbath before Jesus Christ and His work. You may believe that Jesus has a fallen human nature, is a lesser god, has a beginning in time, that his death on the cross didn't pay for any sin, it's of secondary importance. But you can't believe that the sabbath is no longer binding, this is of primary importance, and takes precedence over the other doctrines. Apart from any motivation, in the adventist mindset it's more important to get the sabbath right than get Jesus and his work right. It should be obvious that when something is more important than Jesus, it's an idol. I understand that adventists follow their conscience regarding obedience to God, no problem with that. The problem is when they place their obedience to God over Jesus and His mission, when what people do for God in worship is more important than what God does for us in salvation, when human's acts toward God are more important than God's acts toward man. Once again, it's not a matter of motivation, it's a matter of placing the things in the proper perspective and order. When human obedience is elevated above God Jesus and His work of salvation, it stands where only God can stand, it took God's place, it became an idol. Gabriel | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1432 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good Morning Gabriel, I find this a bit confusing. (not arguing here) Quote: The problem is when they place their obedience to God over Jesus and His mission, "if you love Me, keep my commandments" The nuance here is whether we place obedience to percieved commands above our mental ascent or belief in the finished works of Christ. Do we elevate our works of the law above the gift of grace? The quandry here is how does one determine the conscience of anothers mind? The other issue is , assuming that they are convinced that they owe obedience to the 10C in loyalty (test) to God. Then how can they logically walk away from the 4th Commandment any differently that the other 9? To them, to disobey and walk away from the law is tantamount to denying Christ, their Supreme loyalty. The key here, you have to first establish to their convictions that they are not obliged to observe the 10C. ie;"no longer under the supervision of the law" That is the most difficult part. Because it requires undoing a whole lot of sequential, 'painted into a corner' theology for the individual adventist. For them to let go of their moorings , they have to have some cognizant way to anchor their minds and hearts in Christ beyond a handful of passages. It is completely disorienting to free fall from the law. I disagree with the analogy of them making the law (or Sabbath) an idol. Rather , it is confusion and error if anything. The SDA have books devoted to Righteousness by Faith. They are aware of the contrasts , of Christ Saving grace and redemption. However, they do (IMO) place excessive emphasis on the letter of the law and works. They confess Christ. That is a begining. I consider this thought, in the mind of an adventist, to set aside the law to them means Christ died for nothing. Scriptures says if we could save ourselves by our works , Christ died for nothing. Which is a correct statement? Both possibly? What I see in SDA is a testimony to loyalty to Christ. Not idol worship. They may be in error, but they are acting upon convictions. Jim (Message edited by jim02 on November 26, 2011) | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2941 Registered: 8-2004  |
There is such a thing as sincerely wrong. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 648 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jim Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that their obedience to the 10c is right. My argument is that, even if they are right regarding the 10c, they are wrong when they consider that getting right the 10c is more important than getting the person of Jesus and His work right. Even if they are right that the sabbath should be kept, they are guilty of idolatry because they place it before Jesus and His work. I don't know what's unclear about what I wrote above: they allow diversity of views, even contradictory views about Jesus' humanity, His divinity, the nature of atonement, etc. These views exclude themselves. Either Jesus was identical with God or not, His humanity was affected by sin or not, either He died an expiatory death for our sins or not. When you allow people in your ranks to share such opposing views, you place these views in the secondary category, of lesser importance, you don't care much what they think about Jesus and His work. You show more care about what they think about sabbath and the 10c. This shows where your heart is, that you have more heart for the 10c than for Jesus and His work. I repeat, even if sabbath should be kept, when you consider it more important than Jesus and His work, you change the proper order of priorities. You place 10c where God (Jesus) should be, of having first importance, while Jesus and His work is relegated to secondary important categories. Is now clear why sabbath becomes an idol because it changes places with Jesus? Jesus is of first importance, sabbath is secondary importance, but adventists reversed the order. Gabriel | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2009 Registered: 6-2006  |
Mary, there's also such a thing as being sincerely in denial. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1072 Registered: 2-2008 |
I think that scriptures are clear that sin IS sin. Whether sin is intentional, whether the motive was correct... it is still sin. We have Uriah (not sure this is his name... if it's wrong please correct) that had good intentions when he held out his hand to keep the ark of the covenant from falling. Whether he had good intentions, whether he knew he was sinning... God still struck him down for touching the side of the ark. Sin is sin. That's why we need JESUS! Whether an Adventist is aware of the idolatry of their sabbath keeping... still doesn't make it less of a sin. No one hides the fact that their beliefs can vary all over the place regarding who Christ is, but you cannot deviate on the doctrine of the weekly sabbath in adventism. Which makes their sabbath doctrine above all other doctrines including Christ's nature. Sabbath trumps all in adventism. This is the point Gabriel is making. Thx for bringing that up Gabriel. vivian | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 649 Registered: 7-2005 |
Vivian Thanks for reformulating my point, maybe Jim will get it finally. We are not dealing with areas where we don't have proofs, like internal motivation, but with public positions taken by the leadership of the SDA Church as a whole. And also I have to thank Ric for bringing it to my attention through what he wrote in his exit letter. The importance of sabbath in adventism is of such magnitude that from adventist's perspective somebody can get Jesus and the gospel right, as for example former adventists who became evangelicals, but still be lost due to a non-sabbatarian position. Mark of the beast. Period. Jim, if you suspect we are harder on adventists than we should be, take a hard look at their theology, take a hard look at the importance they give to sabbath, take a look at the fact that they think that us, former adventists, are apostates and will miss heaven for rejecting the sabbath even if we believe the gospel. Gabriel | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2266 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; I know that the average Adventist would be horrified to be accused of putting the Sabbath over Jesus. I know that they wouldn't consciously put ANYTHING over Jesus, but that's what they are doing in effect, even though they thinking they are HONORING Jesus by keeping the Sabbath. It's like abortion. Before scientific evidence showed that the unborn child was really a baby, people would have an abortion thinking they were just getting rid of unwanted "tissue," but that doesn't change the fact that they were killing a baby. That doesn't change the fact that their baby is dead. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2942 Registered: 8-2004 |
Yep! That too Grace-Alone! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13174 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gabriel, very, very good explanations, and Vivian, what a great summary. Jim, Gabriel is right. Adventists have the Bible in their possession; they have access to God (because of Jesus' death and resurrection) and can ask Him to teach them what is true. That is how ALL of us left. But when an Adventists turns to God and submits to Him and His word, he has to turn from all the teachings of error in order to find the freedom in the truth. Lot's wife demonstrates what happens when one leaves an evil identity—but looks back. As long as a person looks back at Adventism, reads its books, and makes excuses for the arguments they use, one cannot see the truth. A person cannot equally examine truth and error and decide which is true apart from submitting to God and letting go of everything one believes. Truth is perceived only through the Holy Spirit...you can't make excuses for the writings of an evil organization while proclaiming "sola scriptura". Tfelmon...Gabriel's explanations above explain why Sabbath is an idol for Adventists...and I know first-hand that Adventists do not see it that way. But when one risks giving up the Sabbath for the sake of Jesus alone, it becomes clear. An individual Adventist can't distance himself from the Adventist organization's beliefs, saying they don't apply to him. The question to ask is: what would it mean to give them up? Would it compromise my possible salvation? Would it mean losing income? Would it mean losing identity? What would happen if one decided to trust Jesus alone, placing one's trust in His word alone? Ciolleen |
