| Author | Message | ||
| Foofighter Registered user Username: Foofighter Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2005 |
TFelmon, I agree that the Sabbath is/can be a sore spot for a lot of former SDA's, and understandably so. I'm sure most, if not all, would certainly agree with Colossians 2:16,17. I think formers might see it as a "gateway drug", so to speak, to legalism. It sounds to me, that she is encountering all the do's and dont's involved with "keeping" the Sabbath. We aren't Israel...the Jews were all in one nation/culture, so there were no gray areas, so to speak, when God gave them the 613 laws. It was not given to Gentiles. It says several times in the OT that it was the sign of the covenant between God and Israel. If that is the path she chooses, so be it. It may not seem as much of a blessing in a few years...there will be lots of issues involved. The novelty will probably wear off, or legalism will set in. IMHO. We can all get sidetracked on rabbit trails...but if it all leads to God's word, that's great. So much to learn! I feel like I'm just getting started. Carol | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1640 Registered: 7-2003  |
This is an interesting conversation. I think Romans 14 might be the most applicable passage addressing whether or not it’s okay to observe a certain day as more special than another. I believe the thrust of Paul’s teaching to the mixed Jewish and gentile church in Rome is that each person needs to make up their own mind about this and no one should judge another for their practice in this regard. So is it okay to set a day aside to observe in a special way? I think the answer is clearly “yes” with a proviso, we’re not supposed to make it an issue of judgment in the church. On the other hand, Col. 2 is written to a largely gentile church plagued by judaizers who have come to try and convince them they should still be observing certain Old Covenant shadows like food laws and the Sabbath. Paul makes it abundantly clear that all these things were nailed to the cross so no one should judge them for not doing these things. He is adamant that Jesus is the fulfillment of these shadows and takes a very negative tone towards those who want to make these shadows an issue of judgment. So is it okay to try and convince other Christians that they really need to observe a Sabbath in order to be obedient or blessed? I think the answer is clearly “no”. So, given all the biblical counsel on this topic I would certainly say if you set a day apart just to be with God, that’s fine, but here’s the thing to keep in mind: it’s really, really hard to pull a shadow from the Old Covenant Law into the New Covenant and observe that shadow without legalism. Going back to the Law just sucks us into legalism. That’s just human nature. So if you choose to observe a Sabbath, here are some warning signs that you might be getting off track into legalism: 1. You think you are doing this to be “obedient”, thus imply that other Christians are being “disobedient”. 2. You think you are receiving a special blessing that other Christians aren’t receiving. 3. You think you are honoring God beyond what other Christians do. 4. You think observing a day means you are experiencing the rest of God. 5. When you say “the Sabbath” you’re referring to a day rather than a Person. 6. You believe the Decalogue commands you, as a Christian, to keep a day. 7. You feel like others should keep a day. 8. You sometimes suggest to others that they keep a day. 9. You secretly question why others don’t keep a day and feel that they are not quite as serious about the Christian walk as they should be. 10. You believe keeping a day is a spiritual “discipline”. 11. You sometimes have an internal debate about what is or isn’t “okay” to do on that day. 12. You find yourself restricting participation in activities that are of importance to loved ones in order to better “keep” the day. 13. You are considering leaving your current church family because they do not share your practice of keeping a day. 14. You feel compelled to publicly expound on the many virtues of keeping a day. 15. You use "proof texts" to support your position on keeping a day. If one or more of these fits you, you’ve probably let a seed of legalism creep into your choice to keep a day. Hey, let’s face it. We’re all legalists deep down and we all struggle with issues like this, if not about a day then about something else. I’m really not pointing fingers. What I am suggesing is that for those of us who grew up SDA, I think it’s nearly impossible for us to keep a day without one or more of the serious problems above. I think it’s probably *almost* as difficult for any Christian trying to observe a shadow. Some may be able to do it, but I think they’re few and far between. That’s why the New Testament is so negative on trying to pull Old Covenant shadows into the New Covenant. It may be within our freedom to do so, but it tends to bring out the legalist in all of us. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2939 Registered: 8-2004  |
Well said Chris. Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13171 Registered: 12-2003  |
Tfelmon, I'll try to address your questions above in some sort of systematic way. First, as Cloudy says above, those of us on this board are not defending worship on Sunday, either. Colossians 2:16-17 applies to the Sabbaths of the Mosaic law...but Galatians and Romans also address the issue of days, and "days" include Sunday as well as any other day someone might consider "holy". There is no defense for "Sunday sacredness" or a "Sunday-Sabbath". Sabbath was never transferred to Sunday or to any other day. Period. The only "transfer" of days is found in Hebrews 3 and 4, and that passage states overtly that israel never entered God's rest, even though they had the command to worship on the seventh day...so God set another day and called it "Today". Today if you hear His voice, enter His rest—and you will thus experience that "Sabbath-like rest" (Sabbatismos) that is there for all who believe. That rest has nothing to do with days. Second, the person on the blog mentioned above is being beguiled into believing that there is something intrinsically worthy about resting on Sabbath. She is not turning her Sunday into a special day of rest and worship; she is turning back to Sabbath. It seemed clear to me that she was beginning to believe that there was something God ordained that made the seventh day eternally holy—but Scripture does not support this idea. Moreover, those of us who have kept Sabbath as a holy day, a sign of our loyalty to God, an acknowledgement of what we believed was God's eternal blessing of the seventh day, a mark of our desire to please Him—those of us who believed that there was something especially blessed about Saturday/Sabbath are asked to relinquish that deep loyalty because Jesus asks us to be loyal ONLY to Him. For us, Sabbath has the qualities of an idol, something to which we clung as part of our worship of God. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 8 that idols were nothing to him, that he could eat anything sold in the meat market because he knew that the idols meant nothing. But he admonished the new Corinthian believers (and also the believers in Romans 14) to be careful NOT to eat food offered to idols when in the company of new believers because their consciences, being weak from their old worship practices, could be defiled and led astray if they saw believers eating meat offered to idols. Sabbath is that sort of idol to those of us who have believed it to be part of our worship/salvation "package". We have to be willing to completely let it go in order to know that we are placing our confidence ONLY on Jesus, putting our practice where our profession is. For Adventists, Sabbath is like the golden calves were to the Northern Kingdom of Israel under Jeroboam. Those Canaanite religions (and the syncretistic Israelites) did not consider the golden calves deities in themselves. The pagan religions made the calves to carry the symbols of their deities. The calves represented the strength and power and authority of the gods. The calves carried the gods. The Israelites used golden calves in their Yahweh worship, but they did not represent Yahweh on them. Yahweh, after all, could not be seen. They did not consider the calves "gods"; they used the calves as symbols, as the carriers of Yahweh. They used the popular symbol to connect with the Canaanites around them...but their God was invisible. Yet God cursed them for idolatry. Sabbath was our golden calf. We didn't consider it a "god", but for us as Adventists, it "carried" our God. We didn't believe we could rightly worship Him without Sabbath. Oh, we said we worshiped God...but we clung to Sabbath as a holy icon. We were idolaters in the same way the Israelites were when they established golden calves in their worship at Dan. We have to be willing to let go completely of what has been an idol. It is not the same for us as for those who have never been Adventist; Sabbath was never a "holy day" for them, and they don't have a whole chain of habits and emotions about the day. For us, giving up Sabbath is the hardest thing because we give up a whole style of life and circle of friends. And no matter how much we rationalize, we deceive ourselves if we don't admit that at some deep level, we're hedging our bets. The Corinthians had to give up eating the meat offered to idols even after they knew the idols were nothing. We have to give up the idol of our special day that completely defined our subculture. We have to let Jesus be the ONLY thing/Person to whom we are loyal. We can't hold onto our lifestyle while mentally rejecting what it stands for. We have to integrate our beliefs into our practices, or we remain internally compromised. Put it another way: if a man has a female colleague who works on a project with him, that relationship may be just fine. There's nothing to hide, and proper boundaries are in place. But if that man and woman move into a personal friendship and begin having lunch and dinner appointments, seeing more and more of each other and looking forward to the time spent together, that relationship has moved out of "colleague" status into "potentially adulterous" status. If a man and a woman begin an adulterous relationship, they can't just stop but continue being friends. They have to leave each other completely, or the old dynamics are triggered. People who haven't crossed personal boundaries, on the other hand, may not have any dynamics to be triggered. Same with us and Sabbath. We have to let her go. She was our spiritual mistress in whom we placed our confidence. We knew we had her "right". But we were wrong. We have to act on the basis of our trust in Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 895 Registered: 8-2008 |
Just the other day I was reading in Luke: This is quite clear: Old and New don't mix. Moreover, to live under the Old Covenant by observing its Sabbath is not an attempt to bring the Old into the New. Rather, it is an attempt to cut a piece of the New and sew it onto the Old. They are trying to keep the Old while sewing on the "no condemnation" (Rom. 8:1) piece onto the New. They ruin both the Old and the New. This is not a gray area here. Any combining of the Old Covenant and New Covenant is an attempt to live under a modified Old Covenant, not under a modified New Covenant. It ruins the New Covenant and the Old Covenant. It introduces a spiritual power (the Law) into a place where he shouldn't be. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 222 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Thank-you Chris & Colleen for bringing clear teaching into this discussion! They way you have presented these truths from scripture make it much easier to explain both to adventists & Christians alike~ ~mj~ | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1709 Registered: 12-2007  |
Colleen, I LOVE your above post !!! I really think it is worthy of being in an upcoming issue of Proclamation.  Many , Many people need to hear this message just as you have explained it. Simply and clearly Francie | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 218 Registered: 4-2005 |
Colleen, Skeeter"s comment rings true for me. Just waiting for the full article - - watching the pages of Proclamation. I appreciated the way you layed it out. I have personally found that returning to certain forms of religion tends to "trigger" those old legalistic pathways. As formers we run the risk of "re-injuring" right where we have been broken before. I believe that the risks that accompany Old Covenant religious rituals are there for everyone not just formers - Jesus' talk with the woman at the well certainly contained His agenda of transfering our focus from the forms to spiritual worship. Thanks all for the discussion. Paul Cross | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1066 Registered: 2-2008  |
Thank you so much Chris, Colleen and Brent for your feedback. Cloudy, you hit the nail on the head. I will respond... just haven't had time to sit down and look at it all. The other thing that I noticed is that she hasn't gone beyond the "physical" meaning of rest. She briefly said that she rests in Christ everyday... and I want to ask her what that means to her. I believe that God taught us physically about rest before we would be able to understand the spiritual rest we have in Christ. The blogger hasn't moved into that spiritual rest and she's looking for it in the weekly sabbath. vivian p.s. great illustration Colleen about the coworker working/adulterous relationship. I agree that I cannot ever go back to worshipping on a sabbath because of the ties that sabbath keeping means to me.... even if it was a non-denominational church having worship on a Saturday. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1067 Registered: 2-2008 |
p.s. ... is anyone else bugged about the fact people think it's a "challenge" to keep a sabbath? ... especially in our culture today? It just seems so trivial. People are being martyred for their faith in Christ and these bloggers are challenged by trying to keep sabbaths? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1641 Registered: 7-2003 |
Indy4now, I guess I'm a little different personally (and probably a minority). I don't really have all the warm fuzzy feelings about the Sabbath and what a great thing it was every week to have that wonderful break, etc. For me personally, it really was kind of was a challenge. My life feels MUCH more restful and sane now that I'm not trying to observe a day with all kinds of limitations. I agree it's hardly on the level of persecution or whatever, but it would be a huge challenge (and a pain) for me to restructure my life now to include Sabbath restrictions. I would have to go back to being exhausted and stressed all the time, because of the rigidity involved. I imagine it was a wonderful break for the Israelites when hard labor seven days a week was the norm. For most modern people it would be more likely to take what should be a relaxing weekend and load work and stress into Friday and Sunday, punctuated by boredom, guilt, and assorted dysfunction on Saturday. I would guess the author of the blog feels this and that's why she is calling it a "challenge". She probably thinks she should do it, but I'm guessing she would probably privately admit it's not and easy transition to make or discipline to maintain. It would be especially hard if you had never ever done it before. That's probably part of the reason she is toying with the idea of finding a different congregation because it's a lot easier if you have a whole culture to support you in the practice. Let's face it, legalism is hard work. | ||
| Foofighter Registered user Username: Foofighter Post Number: 185 Registered: 7-2005 |
Amen Chris...it is a burden. That is why SDAs are so happy when the sun goes down on Sat. night. When keeping the Sabbath was new to me, it "felt" nice, and like I was doing something good and religious. More about what I was "doing" for God, instead of what God had done for me. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1068 Registered: 2-2008 |
LOL Chris! ... legalism IS hard work! I'll have to get Sergio on that. It sounds like a t-shirt in the making! Maybe on the other side it would say "try grace"! I think it would be a challenge to keep Ellen's sabbath... but if it meant resting vs working. Unfortunately, I could play on my computer and watch TV all day and use "sabbath" as my excuse not to get things done around the house! vivian | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1069 Registered: 2-2008 |
btw Chris... I'm saving the list you came up with. so true. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1428 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi Colleen, My purpose is not to argue for the old covenant or a mandate to observe Sabbaths. In reading your post 13171, you attached a charge of idol worship to the defacto motives of the SDA believer. Is that actually a fair assessment? Romans 14 says we should stop judging others in disputable matters. 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. My point is this. By jumping ahead to a conclusion saying that they (SDA) make Sabbath an idol or a golden calf, can only be predicated upon the assumption that they have the conscious awareness of an ignored truth. In other words. Your charge is based upon an assumption of willfull disobedience. Whereas , the average SDA is of the belief that the 10C are perpetual and not affected by the new covenant except that there is (in their belief), a new premise and means through Christ to aim for the successful and Spiritual means to keep the 10C, albeit within their sphere as flawed humans. It goes back to the sequence of links in their theology construct. It is not that they are attempting to mix OC and NC, but that they believe the 10C stands across both covenants. Thus, they must discover what is truth in regards to divisions of law vs the whole law. They must resolve the circular references to the law that confuse and serve to confirm the SDA view on the 10C law. They also have to discover (for what may be the first time) the many passages that move us away from the written code of which have either been downplayed, reinterpreted or ignored in their study enviroment. After all, I observe no church has it all locked down. So how is it we can judge and ascribe the charge of idol worship when in fact these people are following what they believe to be God's will? Is it any less or different during the entire dispensation of the law under Moses when people attempted to obey the law(s) as they understood it, to say they too were worshiping golden calfs in obeying the law? The allusions to heresy, apostasy, being unsaved, idol worshiping are all based upon judging the motives of others and then assiging a shock value charge to drive home the point. It may get their attention , but I wonder how effective it is in bringing them to discovering a truth after being assulted with such charges when they look at their own hearts (intent and motives) before God? Respectfully, Jim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13173 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, Israel KNEW they were in idolatry. There was no doubt...from the time Moses ascended Sinai and Aaron built the golden calf down below, Israel KNEW that the golden calves were idolatrous. God was very, very clear. As for people not being guilty of idolatry when they are sincere in there beliefs...that argument doesn't "wash" today. We HAVE Scripture, and God continues to bring us face-to-face with the truth. Jesus told Nicodemus there is only ONE way to see and enter the kingdom of God...being born again of the Spirit. Being born again happens when we place our entire faith in the Lord Jesus. The Canaanites were guilty of idolatry even when they believed in their gods. Romans 1 is very clear that the divine nature and eternal power of God has been made clear in everything that has been made...and no one has an excuse. Adventists HAVE Scripture, and the real meaning of Scripture and the gospel is very, very clear--especially in the First World where everyone has Bibles. Now, until a person is confronted with the full atonement of the Lord Jesus, if he believes he needs to keep Sabbath, then he needs to keep Sabbath. But as Dale Ratzlaff says, no one should encourage anyone to go against their conscience, but there comes a time when we are responsible to retrain our consciences. When the gospel is clearly taught, we are obligated to change our consciences. The Holy Spirit is not our conscience; conscience is trainable. The Holy Spirit tells us the truth about Jesus...and when we refuse to embrace that truth because our consciences feel guilty, we become guilty of unbelief. God is greater than our hearts; when we know the truth of Scripture, our conscience is no longer a safe guide if it contradicts Scripture. Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, people who call themselves Christian but without being born again...all are guilty before God. But He Himself reveals Himself, and we are then held accountable for what we do with Him. Jim, I was totally guilty of idolatry as an Adventist...but I didn't know it. I knew I was filled with anxiety, that I could never "get it right", that I could never figure out how to explain all my cognitive dissonance. WHen I realized Scripture in context said things different from my understanding as an Adventist, I had to make a choice: hold only my previous understanding, or risk letting it go and embracing the Lord Jesus. It was a choice...and after I made the choice to go with Jesus/Scripture and let Adventism go, it was very, very clear that I had been living in idolatry. I had not been worshiping the Lord God revealed in Scripture in the way He demands we worship Him (as explained in John 4:22-26). Colleen | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 987 Registered: 5-2009 |
Wow...excellent discussion. So many good posts. Thank you Chris, Colleen and Bskillet for your wonderfully clear and insightful explanations. I know that when I hear Christians promoting Sabbath-keeping my gut reaction is: they are ripe for conversion into the SDA church. And that is extremely upsetting. I never really had any joy in trying to keep Sabbath--it made my regular work-week much more difficult and it was rather a lonely (spiritually speaking) and extra stressful day. I knew I should be having "joy" in the day, but deep down knew I didn't, which made me feel guiltier. I knew something was missing, but I didn't know what (or Who) it was. I am SO thankful to God for my new life !!! | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 288 Registered: 2-2008 |
Hi Jim, Hebrews 4 talks about the good news being announced to the Israelites in the Sinai, just as it was announced to us , but they did not accept the Good New, and believe. At this time scripture was being acted out, and had not been written. So unless we limit Gods voice only being spoken through Moses, and the Levitical priesthood, it is safe to say that God has always spoken to our hearts. Remember, Job, Knew that his redeemer liveth. God is not a respecter of persons, so why would he only speak to Moses, Abraham, Rahab, Job etc. and not speak to anyone else. Its just that these people believed what God told them. We are also told in Hebrews that that Gods rest has been available since creation. It must be remembered though that the ceremonial sabbath was not given until 430 years after Abraham. We next are admonished "Today"not to harden our hearts when we hear his voice. His voice is sharp, and precise and is deliberately messaged to each and every one of us, and is not limited to scripture, or ministry, but is most profoundly spoken directly to our heart. Some hearts listen and believe, some hearts harden and don't hear his voice. Disbelief in Gods voice is not necessarily a permanent condition, as many of us here can attest to. His voice can be heard, and believed, and the promised peace and rest in Him is experienced. This took many years of wilderness experience for me to finally listen, but looking back, I can say with certainty, that God was telling me the Good News, but I was not listening. In Gods kindness he showed me how to listen, but my world turned upside down in the process to be able to hear. Those people you mention who sincerely believe a false gospel, have a big part in the rigidity of belief in what they believe. This could be part of their prideful or smarty pants nature if they choose a false gospel to follow, but If they were born, and lied into such a system, God is no less intent to speak to their hearts. God is patient, and brilliant, so I haven't given up on idol worshippers yet. Here's to the kindness of God, Chris | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1070 Registered: 2-2008 |
Ok... I took the time to read Lisa's response to my question. My question to her was not about whether keeping a sabbath was a challenge (which is what I wrote about on this thread). Here were my questions: -What insights are you gaining about Christ by keeping a day holy? -What are you learning about rest? -Is it really a day that is giving you rest? -Is it God who provides rest to you? As you keep a shadow of the reality you have in Christ, what are you learning about Christ? In her response, the only description of rest that she had was physical rest from "daily work, responsibilities, and distractions". The rest of her response was dedicated to what she had learned about sabbaths.  So this is my response to her that I left on FB:
so sad... she, by her blog, is teaching others that you find rest in a day... sigh. Happy Thanksgiving! vivian | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1429 Registered: 5-2007 |
Again, I am not proposing to defend the theology of either side when it comes to the things we are conflicted over. I personally believe that God is continously working within each soul to discover truth and a path to His salvation in Christ. I do not think it helps anyone to find truth by laying on them judgements, labels or tests. The question of excuse comes up. Indeed , just as in sin itself, we are all guilty. We all rely continously upon Christ. Our intelligence and truth detecting capabilities cannot be the sole test of salvation. No matter how sure any of us are that we have the truth because we have a copy of the scriptures, does not follow that we have it all figured out. "to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." That means something. I agree, we all must and should strive to know the truth as best we can know it. In faith and dependence upon Christ. The SDA , and not only them, but every religion has error. It is an axiomatic statement. If they confess Christ as their saviour, it is not for us to judge them for every detail in how they attempt to relate to God. 22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. If I have a wonderful truth, yes by all means share it, build up the church. Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. gentle.... Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Love , Jim |
