| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1404 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am attempting to explore and comprehend the book of Romans and how it relates to Law and Grace and the instructions we are given as Christians. Romans 2: 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? J: Repentance? A change or turning away from Sin(s) I assume. 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. J: Storing up wrath? Evidently, there is a relational or behavioral position towards God that we can be in, that causes us to build up an ever-increasing punishment, “God’s wrath” at “judgment”. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. J: The first clue of instructions. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. J: The key here is what is truth? What is the truth in context to this book of Romans ? 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; J: Noting that Jew and Gentile are included in this discussion. Chapter 3: 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. J: We know that everyone is a sinner. No exceptions. We also know that we will not be declared righteous though attempting to keep the law by our works of service or our level of obedience. We might try, but it, in of itself will not be enough. Nevertheless, The law makes us aware of sin, our own sin. It tells us we are a sinner, but the above also tells us the works of the law will not declare us righteous since we are all already sinners under the law. Knowing this does not automatically give me a free pass to ignore the law. Though I am not sure as yet where it does lead me. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, J: Right here a declaration is made and there is a possible split in the path we take from here. A: Apart from the law. B: The righteousness of God has been made known. C: This righteousness is GIVEN “Through” Faith in Jesus Christ. D: No difference between Jew or Gentile. We are all included. 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. J: ALL are justified by grace through the redemption (sacrifice) that comes from Christ. So far so good. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. J: Acknowledged 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. J: Here we are , back to the law. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. J: Apart from the law. 8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b] 9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! J: Point taken. We start with faith in Christ’s righteousness in advance of any further steps we will take in the future. 13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. J: Taking God at His word, Apart from the law. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. J: I think this is saying, faith is the access to grace regardless of with or without the law. 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. J: So here is where I wonder, is this grace above and beyond, credited no matter what happens in my life, my success or failures, am I saved here and now? Unconditionally? 5: 20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. J: The law increased sin’s accountability, awareness. But grace is greater that all these sins we are now aware of. Ok, so what am I to do or take from this point being made here? If this is not a release from the law, what is the point of this statement? How do I make use of it? 6: 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? J: It seems important then to know what sin is. He says we have died to sin. Did we ? ! I take it then that dieing to sin was by faith in Christ’s sacrifice for us. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. J: Completely lost here. Sin is not my master, yet I still find a battle with sin everyday. Did I miss the transaction? Because I am not (no longer) under the law but grace, then somehow by this grace sin is therefore not my master. (by the way, let’s debate what it means to be UNDER the law) Under it’s condemnation, or under it’s authority? Under it’s -------- for past , present or future sins ? We can get lost right here over what under means. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. J: How have I been set free from sin? I still have the same nature to sin as before. If it is not literal, then what is meant by being set free from sin? 7: 4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. J: Plain as day, We died to the law. We are released from the law. We now serve in the new way of the Spirit. We do not (any longer) serve in the old way of the written code. So with this, now I have my freedom from the law? That includes keeping Sabbath days and all the bylaws or rules that make up keeping a Sabbath day holy? Or……. Maybe not. If we are now living in the new way of the Spirit. Exactly what does that mean? What does it proceed from or reflect to? 7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. J: Back to the law we go! 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. J: No win situation. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. J: Even so, I can’t win. 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. J: Got it. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[ J: Ok Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! J: My only hope. 25 So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin. J: Duality of our reality. 8: 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. J: I see the words, no condemnation. But do not understand the transaction. At least as to what I may conclude from it. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. J: I want this to mean, because I could not do it on my own merits. [c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. J: This is a big if. How do I know I am living according to the Spirit? This makes me want to look at my fruits and works. My behavior and what is in my inner being. I end up picking back up the same yoke. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. J: Yep, put that yoke back on. Here we are, being directed to submit to God’s law. Mind you, by The Spirit, but nevertheless, submitting to the law. Another circle. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. J: Right about here , I picture my mind as a pin ball being ricocheted relentlessly between the bumpers. If , clang, if , clang, if, perhaps, if , test, if , test, define, if, circle , ding , up down left right……. You are then faced with a test. If you have The Spirit, you are not in the realm of the flesh. Testing…….., what is the test? If Christ is in you? Is that by faith? Or by testing my behavior? How do I make sure I have the if? If I sin, If I battle, then what realm am I in? Then it says, even though my body is subject to death because of sin, The Spirit gives life. Does that override the preceding ifs? Let’s all debate how do we know we have the Spirit of Christ in us? By being sin free? By submitting to the law? By Faith? Does faith supercede the law and goes beyond whatever the flesh is still dealing with? 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. J: So much for once saved always saved. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. J: Another circle, this time, away from the law. 14: 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. J: This is a point that drives most of my questions. If we do not arrive at conviction that we are doing what is right, we sin, regardless if it is mute, right or wrong, it is sin. To not know, is in effect sin. To guess, is sin. This is but one book of the Bible. One of the books that is supposed to define our reality as Christians and our relation to God under the terms of the New Covenant. I have read Romans so many times, I still come up of it with the same questions I went into with. Consistency seems to point back to aiming to submit to the law, by The Spirit. Yet, mainline beliefs suggest that the law is no longer applicable for anything we process Spiritually. That brings me back to, what is our reference point then. It becomes entirely subjective. | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 295 Registered: 10-2009  |
Jim, We are children of Abraham. We are reborn through the seed of Abraham (Jesus Christ). Abraham was saved by Grace thru faith and not through anything he did. The Law points us to our need for Jesus Christ (the Seed of Abraham)it is our tutor to bring us to Christ. The Law was from 430 years after Abraham until the Seed of Abraham (Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law. When we are Born of Heaven/of the Spirit/Again...Christ takes our sins and clothes us in His righteousness. Since Christ fulfilled the Law...and we died to the Law in Christ...we are Born into the Spirit...and the Law of the Spirit. We are seen as perfectly fulfilling the Law although we have not. The Old Testament Law no longer applies to the Christian because it could bring us to Christ and no further. Also since we died in Christ and were raised up In Christ we are no longer subject to the Old Law. Romans 7: 1-4 (HCSB) 1 Since I am speaking to those who understand law, brothers, a are you unaware that the law has authority over someone as long as he lives? 2 For example, a married woman is legally bound to her husband while he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law regarding the husband. 3 So then, if she gives herself to another man while her husband is living, she will be called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law. Then, if she gives herself to another man, she is not an adulteress. 4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were put to death in relation to the law through the crucified body of the * Messiah, so that you may belong to another — to Him who was raised from the dead — that we may bear fruit for God. Since we belong no longer in the Domain of Darkness but have been transferred into the Kingdom of the Son...we are no longer beholden unto the Law that pointed towards our only way of deliverance. We belong to Him who was raised form the dead who welcomed us into His Kingdom. And now we're only beholden to the Spirit of Freedom, the Law of the Spirit that's written on our hearts and minds. We are free from the Law of Sin and Death. If Jesus death and resurrection is incapable of freeing us from the Law of sin and death than truly there is no salvation in it at all. However that is not the case when we are Born of the Spirit His Death and Resurrection are applied to us and they not only break us out of the Domain of Darkness and Transfer us into the Kingdom of the Son He loves...but they also free us from the Law of Sin and Death...and put us under the most gracious Law of the Spirit. If you are saved by the Grace of God through faith, and cling to the Law Sin and Death- then you are committing spiritual adultery. However if you realize that through your salvation you have been freed from the Law of Sin and Death and that the Law of Sin and Death cannot apply to you then you are living in a proper understanding of the great depths of your Salvation. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1846 Registered: 3-2009 |
430 years. I have a confusion with the 430 years that would like someone(s) to explain. Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. Does it mean that the law came 430 years after the promise? Was not the promise given to Abraham? How long since the promise was given until Jacob (Israel? Exodus 12:40-41: 40 The time that the people of Israel lived in Egypt was 430 years. 41 At the end of d 430 years, on that very day, all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. It seems to me that if the promise was given to Abraham a some time before the people of Israel went into Egypt, and they stayed in Egypt 430 years, then from the promise to the given of the law has to be more than 430 years. Otherwise the promise would have needed to be given when the people of Israel went into Egypt. But by this time Abraham was dead already. Any help? | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1408 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi Ross, It is realizing that I am trying to achieve. I follow your points. I am unable to conclude that we are completely free from the law. It may be that I am confusing OC law with a new law or another expression of law. | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 296 Registered: 10-2009 |
Hec, I think that the importance is is not in when the Law was given. But in when Grace was given. The Way has always been by God's Grace through Our Faith (which He gave us). And this way was given through Abraham and his seed Specifically Christ. The fact is that Grace proceeded the Law as the only way of salvation multitudinous years prior to the establishment of the Law. Grace superceeds Law. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13120 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hec, here is how the ESV Study notes explain the dilemma of how the 430 years are figured:
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| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13121 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, the factor that's missing in your "calculations" is the new birth. When we believe in the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit indwells us and literally (not figuratively) brings our dead spirits to life. We are at that point transferred out of the domain of darkness in which we were born and in which we were under God's wrath, and we're placed in the Kingdom of God's beloved Son (Col 1:13). This new birth is how we die to sin, and sin is no longer credited to us. Our spirits are now alive eternally, even though our bodies are dead, and sinful impulses still inhabit our mortal flesh. This struggle between the sin in our flesh and our now-living, now-transferred-out-of-death spirits is what Paul describes in Romans 7. So we really ARE released from sin; it is no longer our master once we are born again because we have literally passed from death (our spirits being naturally disconnected from God) to being alive. We are eternally alive, even if we sin in the flesh, because we cannot be "unborn". God is in charge of giving and taking life. We cannot kill our spirits once God has given us Himself. He finishes what He begins in us (Phil 1:6), and He keeps us in His grip. Once we are made spiritually alive, we have, for the first time, the ability to choose not to sin in the flesh. It has nothing to do with will-power or self-control. Instead, it is all about submitting what we impulsively think to do to God before we act. We can surrender our impulses to Him and allow Him to give us clarity and the mind of Christ before acting. This method of dealing with sin in the flesh is entirely different from dealing with it by will-power. Now we are subject to the Lord Jesus directly through our intimate connection with the Holy Spirit. He makes God's work permeate our minds and lives, and we answer to Him. We do not take either our direction or our reprimands from the law. We are freed from both the condemnation and the authority of the Law because we are now under the Higher Authority: the Law's Author. Colleen | ||
| Nowhitehats Registered user Username: Nowhitehats Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2010 |
Jim,
I have shared your confusion. This gets to the heart of what I believe Paul is saying in Romans. If you have eight minutes, check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/user/NakedGospel#p/u/38/UI_IGna2NY0 I would love to know if it offers you any new insights to your confusion about how Christians relate to the Law, now that we are in Christ. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1410 Registered: 5-2007 |
Nowhitehats, Thank you, I had watched that series about a month ago. I do understand the presentation. I understand the subject. I do not however find the answers I am missing. What happened to the law? Is it no longer a model, a pattern or objective? Christ is the end of the law, as in, The law ends where Christ begins. (Grace) Or Christ , through the process of being born again, living by The Spirit and under Grace, we are brought into harmony with the law. In the first, we delete the law , and the sabbath goes with it. In the second, the law , which is holy , right , pure, eternal is accomplished Spiritually, imputed and in sacntifacation process, the aim or pattern. In which case the sabbath has not been deleted. We are not saved by the law, Christ saves us and covers us with His imputed righteousness, having paid for our sins and our inability to meet the laws demands, but the pattern is still relavant. This is why I am conflicted. I am not trying to work my way into heaven by my efforts to keep the infinite legal aspect of the law, but the law is the pattern nevertheless. If the law is completely deleted, then why does Paul keep referring back to it as a pattern or frame of reference. When he says we establish the law. I think he meant literally what he said. I do not think there is any more use in wrestling with this. I have done my very best to express the gaps I am seeing in the theology of No law, once saved always saved and all the rest. I have tried to talk myself into it. It is not a matter of a leap of faith or not making a decision. There are unsettled issues in my own perception. Not a cop out, nor a free pass. I have been tortured long enough. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13123 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, Paul says "we establish the law" in Romans 3:31. He gives a further explanation of this in chapters 6-7. The point Paul makes in Romans is that the law had a specific function: to reveal and to increase sin. It also expressed the fact that man was cursed if he was not obedient and blessed if he was. Being saved by faith does not nullify that function of the law. It's historic purpose is still real: it was necessary in order for Jesus' ministry to make sense. How could we possibly understand what Jesus really did if the law hadn't been given to make it clear to people that they were judged, condemned, and helpless? Jesus came and said He was the fulfillment of the law. He is the Standard of Righteousness that was only dimly revealed in the law. Jesus clarified the depth and curse of sin by becoming sin for us and becoming the curse that the law described. Moreover, Jesus demonstrated that He was the substance behind all the shadows of the "ceremonial" laws. He consistently, throughout His ministry, broke all the ritual laws: he touched dead people and lepers; he didn't wash His hands (nor make His disciples wash) before eating. He broke the Sabbath, and He allowed His disciples to break the Sabbath by plucking grain and eating it on the Sabbath. Jesus never broke any moral reality. He never dishonored God nor dissed His parents nor killed nor committed adultery...nor did He break those laws in His mind by lusting or hating or doing any internal nastiness. He trusted God always. But Jesus BROKE the law, over and over and over. He didn't go for ceremonial cleansing after touching lepers or taking the hand of a dead girl or after breaking the Sabbath by healing or plucking grain. Rather, Jesus infused life and cleansing into dead or sick person He touched. He became the cleansing of the unclean; unclean people didn't defile Him; He UN-defiled them. His breaking the Sabbath was for the same purpose as His breaking the other ritual laws. He demonstrated that He was the One they foreshadowed. He came bringing God's rest; He didn't have to observe his own "shadow rest". A day was never intended to be God's rest. Hebrews 3 explains that Israel didn't enter God's rest when they entered Canaan...and they were keeping Sabbath. God's rest could only be entered by Jesus coming and bringing God's rest through His payment for sin and His resurrection breaking the power of death. Sabbath was a shadow...exactly as Col 1:16 says. Sabbath, hand-washing, not touching dead people...these were all laws that Jews had to observe to keep them aware that their lives were DEFILED. And Sabbath was the sign of their covenant--a shadow of rest that was not realized, as Hebrews 3-4 explain, until Jesus came and set another day called TODAY by fulfilling the shadows of the law. The eternal moral behaviors and attitudes that Jesus spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount are woven into the fabric of reality, of space-time and eternity. Those attributes do not depend upon the law for us to know them. Romans 2 even says that many Gentiles who do not have the law nevertheless keep the law by means of their consciences. This ability to know what is right is part of our being made in the image of God. Law wasn't necessary to inform us...but it was necessary to "knock sense" into people who had suppressed the knowledge of God by their wickedness (Rom. 1:18-20). Now, the Holy Spirit is in those who believe. Jesus fulfilled the law, and He Himself, the Living Fulfillment of the Law, indwells us and IS our LAW. The written law is still instructive, but it is no longer our guide or rule or measure. God is. Jesus came and gave Substance to the shadows the Jews observed. We don't need the shadows now. We need Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Nowhitehats Registered user Username: Nowhitehats Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2010 |
Jim, I would not claim that the law is "deleted". The Bible never makes such a claim. Jesus said, "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20 ESV) I believe the point of what Jesus is saying is found in context of his last sentence: "unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees..." He's pointing out to the prideful of his day that if you think your righteousness is good stuff, you're way too "relaxed". And then he says that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, you have to keep it all and on top of that, your righteousness has to be better than that of the Pharisees. Talk about raising the bar. These are some very hard words of Jesus but remember, the cross had not yet taken place and those he was speaking to where bound under the Mosaic Law and required to do all it commanded to receive God’s favor. This all changed at the cross (the death of the perfect lamb). No, Jim. The Law has not been “deleted”. It is alive and well. The only question is: “How does it fit into your experience as a believer”? Are you trying to climb that mountain like a Jew, trying to belong to a covenant that you were never invited to? Or are you relying on the one who was born under law in order that he could climbed that mountain for you? Paul's mentioning of the Law is simply a way to do exactly what Jesus was doing. Raise the bar for those who believe they must return to keeping it. Then the law does exactly what it is supposed to do - condemn. Have you not discovered what happens when you blend Law with Grace? This is an important question Jim and you should think about it. Here’s what I’ve experienced it looking like: you will look to both Jesus and the Law to understand how God sees you; you will look to Jesus to bring you peace but will also look to the law to condemn you; you will claim forgiveness for confessed sin but it will only be temporary until you wake up the next morning and claim it again; you will claim salvation for some future point in time but will never really know or experience it on a day-by-day basis; you will be humbled by the gift of grace through Jesus’ work on the cross and you will fall under despair while trying to obey the “whole” law. Or even worse, you will be humbled by the gift of grace through Jesus’ work on the cross and you will become prideful. Do you see what this does Jim? If this is the best that God could do, Jesus’ death was superfluous. It wasn’t really needed because in the end, we’ve got to perform, obey, have faith, remember our sin’s (all of them) for confession, try harder, do more, and on and on... We have returned to the Law and Jesus’ sacrifice has offered us nothing more than the experience we could gain by being under the Law. As the Gospel of Jesus was preached to the Gentiles (those outside the covenant God made with Israel through Moses), the apostles did not show up with the law under their arms or attempt to blend that covenant with the new. There was simply the invitation to be apart of something new God was doing that could never have happened under the old covenant. Do you know what that “something new” experience is Jim? Or, have you defined the terms as to what this experience is supposed to look like for you? It’s Grace (New Covenant) or Law (Old Covenant). Never was it to be a blending of both. (Message edited by nowhitehats on November 07, 2011) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1411 Registered: 5-2007 |
I know that you all must think I am dense or obstinate. I listen , and listen, read and read. I ask God for truth and comprehension enough to know the difference between error and basic truth. I can't even get to basic. I find myself not in agreement with either side, but neither camp is able to complete the picture. I cannot bear up under legalism , I already know that. Nor can I completely let go of the law because of the circular references in the NT back to the law. It has become a paradox. Meanwhile, I am without a church, because I do not want to go anywhere looking like an idiot, rebellious, of unable to think for myself. I am told don't go back. I try to express the human side of my reality and fitting in to a new church. I find that I still agree with more of the SDA cultural views than the mainliners. It is like chess. No matter which way I move, check. Move to SDA, I have to process legalism, and the abortion question. But a recent post I read suggested that indeed there are many types of SDA within the SDA. I believe there are a majority of Prolife people in the SDA. So , at best, I simply would not join as a member if I did go back to simply fellowship. I am starving inside. Having no conviction to jettison the law of God. What would you do? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2931 Registered: 8-2004  |
If you think the SDA church is where belong, you may be right. This is not a place where group-think requires you do do exactly as the others have done. Perhaps you are not done learning whatever it was that Adventism was put in your path for. You will not find us cheering about you going back (if that is what you do). I personally do not think you will find what you are looking for there, but sometimes you have to go ahead and DO in order to find out that's not the long-term path for you and let God straighten you out as you go along. I personally am thankful for the time I had growing up in the SDA church. Being freed from it has made me a much more thoughtful and joyful Christian. I cannot go back there because I've been called elsewhere by Jesus. But you still find yourself longing for something that you had there. Ultimately you will need to decide for yourself. What do you think? Where and who has God called you to be? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13127 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, you answer to God, not to us. Your dilemma reminds me of something a friend of mine recently said to me: I can stand beside a chair and say, "I trust this chair to hold me." Or I can sit down in the chair. You have to sit down on what you know will hold you. The choice to sit down means you forfeit your right to continue standing beside the chair. Trusting someone/something with your entire person means you let go of other options. Only you know, Jim, who or what you trust. You have to make a decision and act. Insight FOLLOWS, it does not precede, obedience. Praying for you, Colleen | ||
| Nowhitehats Registered user Username: Nowhitehats Post Number: 55 Registered: 4-2010 |
Know that you are in my prayers Jim. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1412 Registered: 5-2007 |
The defense rests........... | ||
| Got2bfree Registered user Username: Got2bfree Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2011 |
Jim said: "Meanwhile, I am without a church, because I do not want to go anywhere looking like an idiot. . . " If someone at some church somewhere made you feel like an idiot, I am truly sorry for their behavior. (Or perhaps I misunderstand you--maybe you're saying that's what you're AFRAID of and not what you've EXPERIENCED. It's hard for me to tell.) Either way, I can honestly say I never experienced rejection or humiliation (intended or otherwise) at any congregation or at any denomination when I was looking for a "home" after Adventism. What I found were people who were genuinely happy to see me. People who recognized me for the Child of God that I am. I found every congregation to be gracious and desirous of welcoming me in to use my unique God-given gifts and talents in a way that would give me joy and bring benefit to the body of Christ. I'm so happy I left the comfort of my living room and got out there and looked for a church family, because the Lord gave me one and the mutual blessings have been abundant! The Lord Jesus wants you to have that joy and blessing, too, Jim. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2004 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim said: "Meanwhile, I am without a church, because I do not want to go anywhere looking like an idiot. . . " Jim, my favorite phrase of Dr. Phil is, "You'd worry less about what people think about you if you'd realize how little they think about you." In other words, you feeling or "looking" like an idiot is not everyone else's fault or responsibility. That's on you, and truly it's just something you're making up in your own mind. It's not what other people think. I'm with Colleen. This is all between you and God. Perhaps it's finally time for you to poop or get off the pot.  In His love, Leigh Anne | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1413 Registered: 5-2007 |
I had nightmares all night. Feeling like an idiot, is mainly about not having enough insight to keep my bearings within a group. Indecision. What's behind door one, two and so on. I look around the doors and see warning!, and I see , yes , go here, all at the same time. Yes Leigh Anne, then there is me , myself and I. I am the problem. I feel like a train wreck. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2234 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; please don't go back to that cult! Read Handmaiden's last post (#263) on the thread called "Itching ears looking for a church." Please read it four or five times really slowly. Please!!!!! |
